Why Atheists Get the Idea of "Faith" Wrong

[bilby]

According to Jürgen Habermas God is the name we give to our hopes and dreams. As long as we have hopes and dreams God exists.

I just have hopes and dreams, and leave the empty God clause out of it; It adds nothing, so discarding it costs nothing.

If your philosophy works in exactly the same way when you substitute "Gods" for "fairies", then you're no longer a theist so much as you are a child who wants to pretend she's a grown-up.

 

[Shadowy Man]

^There are two reasons for engaging with the materialist atheists.

just to get something clear, almost all Christians, especially in the first world, are materialists.

First, there may be some among them who are ripe for conversion. Second, their blather left unchallenged may continue to impact the general culture in a negative way.

So insults then?

You don’t think you could win over someone to your argument by calling their opinion “blather”?

 

[No Robots]

^There are two reasons for engaging with the materialist atheists.

just to get something clear, almost all Christians, especially in the first world, are materialists.

First, there may be some among them who are ripe for conversion. Second, their blather left unchallenged may continue to impact the general culture in a negative way.

So insults then?

You don’t think you could win over someone to your argument by calling their opinion “blather”?

Mos' def' must I work on my crowd appeal.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Of course, not all Christians take faith as very important personal. Pascal's wager pretty much treated faith like an insurance policy.

^There are two reasons for engaging with the materialist atheists.

just to get something clear, almost all Christians, especially in the first world, are materialists.

First, there may be some among them who are ripe for conversion. Second, their blather left unchallenged may continue to impact the general culture in a negative way.

So insults then?

You don’t think you could win over someone to your argument by calling their opinion “blather”?

Mos' def' must I work on my crowd appeal.

So you've gone from insults to poor comic relief?

 

[No Robots]

^Yikes. Tough crowd.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

^Yikes. Tough crowd.

Go to Freethought & Humor, we have a notable bar set for what is considered funny. You aren't being funny, just rude and dismissive.

 

[No Robots]

^Well, thank you for drawing my failings to my attention. I shall endeavor to make the necessary corrections.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

If being "evidence based" was an important quality in religious faith, there wouldn't be approximately 4000 religions being practiced today, and history wouldn't record a pantheon of 18,000 gods and goddesses (mostly defunct.)
How many periodic tables are there?

It's not uncommon in science to have several different proposed models to explain some natural phenomena. For example, there are many models to explain the Big Bang. This plethora of ideas results from the difficulty of the issue that we are trying to resolve. So we might explain the plethora of gods the same way--God(s) exist but understanding them is difficult.

Atheists are in the main correct in their assessments of faith (in the religious sense, not in the sense of knowing where your car keys are) and correct in their cautions that it cancels out the most powerful attribute we can have as humans: critical thinking.

I have faith in a lot of things and people, and I'm an expert in critical thinking. Contrary to what you say, faith is an essential part of critical thinking.

I don't give a damn what a religionist says about his faith or how he defines it.

That's fine, but I must object when you say by faith she means A when in fact she means not-A. I'm no respecter of religion, but I do give a damn about logic and facts, and no religious person deserves to be lied about.

 

[DBT]

"Trust" is a perfectly fine word: we build trust through our interactions with people and the things of the world.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If being "evidence based" was an important quality in religious faith, there wouldn't be approximately 4000 religions being practiced today, and history wouldn't record a pantheon of 18,000 gods and goddesses (mostly defunct.)
How many periodic tables are there?

It's not uncommon in science to have several different proposed models to explain some natural phenomena. For example, there are many models to explain the Big Bang. This plethora of ideas results from the difficulty of the issue that we are trying to resolve. So we might explain the plethora of gods the same way--God(s) exist but understanding them is difficult.

Atheists are in the main correct in their assessments of faith (in the religious sense, not in the sense of knowing where your car keys are) and correct in their cautions that it cancels out the most powerful attribute we can have as humans: critical thinking.

I have faith in a lot of things and people, and I'm an expert in critical thinking.

Said by no person who was an expert in critical thinking.

Contrary to what you say, faith is an essential part of critical thinking.

You are torturing the word "faith" especially as it applies to religious belief. Having "faith" that the field engineer is recording all the information properly and I can use that data as an accurate representation to the materials at the site is not the same thing as believing in something people 2500 years ago said was real.

I don't give a damn what a religionist says about his faith or how he defines it.

That's fine, but I must object when you say by faith she means A when in fact she means not-A. I'm no respecter of religion, but I do give a damn about logic and facts, ...

Maybe you should give more of a damn about grammar and definitions.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There are two reasons for engaging with the materialist atheists. First, there may be some among them who are ripe for conversion. Second, their blather left unchallenged may continue to impact the general culture in a negative way.

Irony much?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

"Trust" is a perfectly fine word: we build trust through our interactions with people and the things of the world.

It's a trust based on physical interaction.

 

[DBT]

Yes, trust is not the same as faith. Nor is confidence that's built through experience with the physical world.

 

[steve_bank]

I think Buddha would have said in the end like material possessions aquiring spiritual possessions is the same need for 'things'. And both can be equally empty.

The need for spiitual things is just as much an attachment as is the need to accumate material things.A s I interpreted what I read.

The solution is balnced life. Avoid extreme self denial and extreme self idulgene. In modern psychology, a physically and mentally balanced life.

I usulay have a plain diet. But today I had a grilled cheese sandwich with a hot dog inside for lunch.....too much self denial is not a good thing

Personally I got bored of twisting myself into the lotus position contemplating my navel......

In our western system one can reject materialism and sit around meditating as long as there are others producing food, water, shelter, electricty, clothes....

 

[DrZoidberg]

According to Jürgen Habermas God is the name we give to our hopes and dreams. As long as we have hopes and dreams God exists.

I just have hopes and dreams, and leave the empty God clause out of it; It adds nothing, so discarding it costs nothing.

If your philosophy works in exactly the same way when you substitute "Gods" for "fairies", then you're no longer a theist so much as you are a child who wants to pretend she's a grown-up.

That's Jürgen Habermasses point. His project was to explore religion sociologically. He started with the assumption that atheism is true AND religion is, in spite of this, of value to religious people. He then set about trying to figure out what that value could be.

It's a good excercise to try to figure out what our hopes and dreams are. It's good for everyone to meditate/pray.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

According to Jürgen Habermas God is the name we give to our hopes and dreams. As long as we have hopes and dreams God exists.

I just have hopes and dreams, and leave the empty God clause out of it; It adds nothing, so discarding it costs nothing.

If your philosophy works in exactly the same way when you substitute "Gods" for "fairies", then you're no longer a theist so much as you are a child who wants to pretend she's a grown-up.

That's Jürgen Habermasses point. His project was to explore religion sociologically. He started with the assumption that atheism is true AND religion is, in spite of this, of value to religious people. He then set about trying to figure out what that value could be.

The value is a sense of stability and predictability of the future. That is all religion is in the end. The comforting reality that we aren't at the random will of the environment we evolved to live on. A lot of people need that comfort, both mentally and because they were told this was what it was and have skin in the game.

It's a good excercise to try to figure out what our hopes and dreams are.

That has nothing to do with religion.

It's good for everyone to meditate/pray.

Except those that don't, including those that think they do. You can stand next to a river, but unless you actually try to cross it, you aren't actually crossing it. You can talk about crossing it, you can dream about crossing it, but you actually need to cross it, to cross it. Just people say they pray or meditate or whatever, doesn't mean they have done so or are any better for it.

In general, we should aspire to recognize and accept many people's views and understandings are more a reflection of their environment and history, than anything else, and its uniqueness is important to remember when resolving differences. And that a person's religion or lack there of is no more an indicator of their principles and decency than the color of their eyes.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It's good for everyone to meditate/pray.

even granting that this may be true on average it doesn’t mean that it is true for every individual.

 

[bilby]

The value is a sense of stability and predictability of the future.

How is it valuable to have a false sense of the reality in which we live?

The future is unpredictable. The only certainty is that I won't see much of it. What would I gain by pretending that this fact didn't exist?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The value is a sense of stability and predictability of the future.

How is it valuable to have a false sense of the reality in which we live?

Clearly the value exists in the bliss of ignorance. To deny it is ridiculous. Whether it is reasonable isn't relevant.

People pray and nothing happens but they continue to pray, many assured their prayers have been answered in the past.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Contrary to what you say, faith is an essential part of critical thinking.

You are torturing the word "faith" especially as it applies to religious belief. Having "faith" that the field engineer is recording all the information properly and I can use that data as an accurate representation to the materials at the site is not the same thing as believing in something people 2500 years ago said was real.

Actually, both engineers and historians have faith whenever they trust their conclusions. The same goes for the religious when they trust their conclusions.

What's the problem with that?