James Madison
Senior Member
Yes, there are possible worlds “in which we have free will but do not sin,” but those worlds cannot be actualized. It is possible it was not within God’s power to create a world containing righteousness but no evil.
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Why did Jehovah create Satan?
- Thread starter Rhea
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Yes, there are possible worlds “in which we have free will but do not sin,” but those worlds cannot be actualized. It is possible it was not within God’s power to create a world containing righteousness but no evil.
Wiploc
Veteran Member
Not true. There's no reason to think that.
It is not logically possible for god to be able to create a badworld with free will unless he is also able to create a goodworld with free will; it is not logically possible for him to be unable to create a goodworld with free will unless he is also unable to create a badworld with free will.
The logic works both ways.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
https://www.religion-online.org/article/reply-to-the-basingers-on-divine-omnipotence/
Alvin Plantinga - Reply To The Basingers.
Still, I do have a couple of caveats. In the first place (contrary to what they say) I do not argue that "it is possible that all creatures (creaturely essences) are such that they would go wrong with respect to at least one action in any world in which they were free with respect to morally significant actions." I have no doubt that you and I could have been significantly free but morally impeccable; there is a possible world in which we are free to do wrong but always do what is right. Indeed, for any significantly free creature there is a possible world in which that creature is significantly free but always does what is right. That this is so, furthermore, is a necessary truth; so I do not think it is possible that there be free creatures some of whom go wrong with respect to at least one action in every world in which they are significantly free. What I do think is this: there are many possible worlds God could not have actualized; and it is possible (I know of no reason to think it is true)that among these worlds are all the worlds in which there are free creatures who always do only what is right. There are plenty of possible worlds where free creatures do no wrong, but it could be that God might not have actualized any of those possible worlds (NN 168-84).
Plantinga's famous Free Will Defense is a defense, not a theodicy, based solely on straw men.
"I have no doubt that you and I could have been significantly free but morally impeccable; there is a possible world in which we are free to do wrong but always do what is right." So why would a perfect moral God choose not to actualize this world rather than one with no moral evil?
DBT
Contributor
We have to kill in order to eat. We kill when we clear the land for crops, we kill when we spray insecticide....we are in conflict with any number of other interests...
James Madison
Senior Member
That is logically possible because of free will. God, being omniscient, would know the circumstances in which John, a morally free person, freely makes the morally wrong decision/deed in some world and/or possible world. Hence, God could avoid such circumstances and have a world where John, a morally free person, freely does only morally good deeds/decision.
Such a possibility may not be available to God/god because of “transworld depravity.” Transworld depravity is a notion attributable to Alvin Plantinga in his famed work, “God, Freedom, and Evil.”
So, such a world cannot be actualized.
Wiploc
Veteran Member
You overstate your case. I mean, even if you had a case, which I don't think you do, you'd be overstating it to say that "such a world cannot be actualized."
But I invite you to try.
If god, at the beginning, knows everything everyone will do in every possible world, why wouldn't he pick a world in which everyone does right?
skepticalbip
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This seems like a strange argument to me. It looks like the assumption is that both "sin" and "moral" are fixed, invariable, real things. Both are social constructs and what is considered either varies widely depending on the culture and society.
If there were a god then he could have defined sin and immorality as behavior opposed to the nature of the humans he created. So humans acting like humans would be neither sinful nor immoral.
If there were a god then he could have defined sin and immorality as behavior opposed to the nature of the humans he created. So humans acting like humans would be neither sinful nor immoral.
DBT
Contributor
Heaven is supposed to be just such a place. So if it is the nature of the place, Heaven or Earth, that determines decision making and human behaviour, so much for 'free will.'
Learner
Veteran Member
Wiploc
Veteran Member
ideologyhunter
Contributor
'Cause the story had to be reworked every so often, to patch up the leaks.
One would THINK that a religionist would anticipate this question and provide the answer that obviates the need to pose it.
But they never do. They always seemed surprised bby the idea that god could have skipped the wicked earth version and just created the humans into the heaven version.
The god is defined as capable of creating all WITH “free will(tm)” and withOUT “sin(tm)”
Hence this thread. Why create the Satan?
Wondering if Learner will spend his whole time in this thread dodgng the queestion or whether he will enter the discussion in good faith, intending to provide his answer to the question posed.
“Why did Jehovah crreate Satan?”
ideologyhunter
Contributor
Not only why couldn't he go with a better model for earth -- why did there have to be a blood sacrifice for him to forgive sinners? Why couldn't he just forgive, without conditions, like humans are instructed to do? (Not that a godhead loses anything by "sacrificing" an eternal part of that godhead, but, if you start debating that part of it, you just never get outta the rabbit hole.)
Lion IRC
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Yep.
And it is WE who pick the world. Nobody is forced to choose selfishness, wickedness, evil, sin, satan. We have free will choices.
God gave us the same free will He has - we're made in his likeness. God knows that 'good' is the best choice. But we aren't forced to choose the 'good'.
Wiploc asks the equivalent of....why didn't God create a bunch of wind-up robot toys that are all pre-programmed to sing hymns of praise while locked in a little cupboard called heaven.
...gee I dunno why He didn't do that.
Wiploc asks the equivalent of....why didn't God create a bunch of wind-up robot toys that are all pre-programmed to sing hymns of praise while locked in a little cupboard called heaven.
...gee I dunno why He didn't do that.
That makes you roll your eyes? It’s a good question.
Whatever god does to make humans not sin in heaven, why doesn’t he do it on earth.
OR better yet, why not skip earth and only do whatever god does in heaven.
Lion, are you saying that humans in heaven are “wind-up robot toys that are all pre-programmed to sing hymns of praise while locked in a little cupboard” ??
And if you are NOT saying that, what on earth are you saying happens in heaven, if there is a heaven that you think happens, and why does Yahweh need any other places besides that?
Learner
Veteran Member
I'll use Lion's post #56 as my response to post #54
Learner
Veteran Member
That's not quite correct. It WAS a better model at the very start - 'before the fall of Adam, bringing death into the world etc'. So therefore GOD 'DID' go with the better model for Earth (although now no longer perfect). It does say so in Genesis plain and clear.
Blood sacrifice:
Covenant (when sealed and not broken) like that with Noah, should give some indication when reading - showing the necessity of animal blood scarifices.
In layman's speak and POV: If No blood sacrifice (in place of you) is offered, then it's YOUR blood that pays for your sins. God was being quite generous giving a little more lee-way (for lack of better word) without breaking or retracting His word on the covenants IOWs.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
Yep.
And it is WE who pick the world. Nobody is forced to choose selfishness, wickedness, evil, sin, satan. We have free will choices.
God gave us the same free will He has - we're made in his likeness. God knows that 'good' is the best choice. But we aren't forced to choose the 'good'.
Wiploc asks the equivalent of....why didn't God create a bunch of wind-up robot toys that are all pre-programmed to sing hymns of praise while locked in a little cupboard called heaven.
...gee I dunno why He didn't do that.
If God is essentially omniscient, having full foreknowledge of future events, and creates all, God would know that the initial state of creation he chooses for creation of any possible Universe, what his choice will result in. There can be no free will for any creature in any possible Universe God decides to actualize. If God decides to choose a Universe with Hitler and Nazis, Stalin and Bolsheviks, ISIL and jihadis, God is totally responsible.
If God decides to create a Universe where Jane is saintly and enjoys heaven and eternal bliss, and John is created evil and is damned to hell and eternal torment, only God is to blame. Which is not fair, just, merciful, or compassionate as the Bible tells us explicitly God has these attributes.
Since the Bible explicitly tell us God foreknows all future events, that is not something theists can claim God does not foreknow future events. God also is said to predestine all explicitly. No Satan needed.