Why did Jehovah create Satan?

[skepticalbip]

This question has always seemed like a massive plot-hole to me. I find it interesting to discuss because it is such a massive plot-hole.

Did Jehovah not know what was in the heart of this creature? Does the story support that gap? Does god need this plot device so he adds it but refuses to take responsibility? Is Satan actually an equal god, but the book downplays his origin because that scares the shit out of them?

What’s the deal? Who created Satan, Why, and what did they know and when did they know it?

God created all things for His own purpose and pleasure. God created men as sinners that He might show His love and kindness on some, and adopt us as His very own, as show His wrath and justice on others.

That has been my take too. God (as he has been created by humans) is an attention seeking egocentric sadist. He created humans so that the few that find the "narrow path" are sufficient to satisfy his ego's need for adulation and praise. The many, many that he created to follow the "wide path" are grist to satisfy his sadistic need to inflict pain and suffering.

 

[Rhea]

That it is seen as a "plot hole" is largely due to ignorance and/or rejection of Bible teaching concerning the origin of evil.

God created all things for His own purpose and pleasure. God created men as sinners that He might show His love and kindness on some, and adopt us as His very own, as show His wrath and justice on others.

He created evil, because it is His eternal purpose to save His people from it. He did this:

His did this according to the good pleasure of will, and to the praise of the glory of His grace. His did this so that we, His adopted children, would be without blame before Him in love. He did it so that we will worship, praise, and glorify Him forever. He created Satan so that He might save us from him, just as He raised up Pharaoh that He might destroy him in the Red Sea as His people escaped.

It sounds like you believe a being created pain just to look like a hero in fixing it.

In what way is this NOT Munchausen by Proxy?
In what way is this NOT the Hero Delusion Complex?

How is this not uterly alarming to you?

 

[Rhea]

Learner? Lion? Tiger? Politesse? What do you all think of Aesthete’s theology?

 

[Politesse]

Learner? Lion? Tiger? Politesse? What do you all think of Aesthete’s theology?

Why you're asking me, I don't know. That sort of theology definitely is not my bag, though admitting that God, if he indeed created this world, must have meant for evil to exist in it, seems like simple honesty based on what we find in it. By the same token, though, I don't see why a God as sadistic as the one Aesthete seems to be describing would have bothered to create a universe like ours in the first place. Pettiness is not an emotion that makes sense on a cosmic level or for an immortal being, at least as I see it. Pettiness is a fleeting pleasure at best, not something that could keep one entertained for millennia.

 

[DBT]

In other words, a drama created by God for His own edefication. The actors playing out their parts, paying the price in pain and suffering while being blamed for a condition not of their making.

 

[Rhea]

Learner? Lion? Tiger? Politesse? What do you all think of Aesthete’s theology?

Why you're asking me, I don't know.

I was interested in your opinion because you have opinions on theology that differ from Christians and I think you say you believe in some of the bible. So I was interested in the opinion of someone who says they know and understand theology on what you think of this theology.

That sort of theology definitely is not my bag, though admitting that God, if he indeed created this world, must have meant for evil to exist in it, seems like simple honesty based on what we find in it. By the same token, though, I don't see why a God as sadistic as the one Aesthete seems to be describing would have bothered to create a universe like ours in the first place. Pettiness is not an emotion that makes sense on a cosmic level or for an immortal being, at least as I see it. Pettiness is a fleeting pleasure at best, not something that could keep one entertained for millennia.

Good points. It does cause one to wonder.

 

[bilby]

This question has always seemed like a massive plot-hole to me. I find it interesting to discuss because it is such a massive plot-hole.

Did Jehovah not know what was in the heart of this creature? Does the story support that gap? Does god need this plot device so he adds it but refuses to take responsibility? Is Satan actually an equal god, but the book downplays his origin because that scares the shit out of them?

What’s the deal? Who created Satan, Why, and what did they know and when did they know it?

That it is seen as a "plot hole" is largely due to ignorance and/or rejection of Bible teaching concerning the origin of evil.

God created all things for His own purpose and pleasure. God created men as sinners that He might show His love and kindness on some, and adopt us as His very own, as show His wrath and justice on others.

Col 1:16:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

Isaiah 45:7:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Romans 9:21-23:

"21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"


He created evil, because it is His eternal purpose to save His people from it. He did this:

"4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:4-6)

His did this according to the good pleasure of will, and to the praise of the glory of His grace. His did this so that we, His adopted children, would be without blame before Him in love. He did it so that we will worship, praise, and glorify Him forever. He created Satan so that He might save us from him, just as He raised up Pharaoh that He might destroy him in the Red Sea as His people escaped.

Psalm 92:6-7:

6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.

7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

So God is good, in the same way that a volunteer firefighter who saves a school full of children in a major bushfire that kills dozens of people is good. We know he's good, because he saved those kids. We think he deserves a medal.

And we choose to ignore the fact that he started the fire himself, just so he could demonstrate how good he is.

 

[Ruth Harris]

This question has always seemed like a massive plot-hole to me. I find it interesting to discuss because it is such a massive plot-hole.

Did Jehovah not know what was in the heart of this creature? Does the story support that gap? Does god need this plot device so he adds it but refuses to take responsibility? Is Satan actually an equal god, but the book downplays his origin because that scares the shit out of them?

What’s the deal? Who created Satan, Why, and what did they know and when did they know it?

I might as well jump in here and add to the havoc

My answers to your questions in the last sentence:

1. God created Satan.
2. I don't know why he created Satan. I am not capable of understanding the mind of God completely. You might as well ask me to explain quantum mechanics in understandable detailed terms. I can't do that either.
3. God always knew what would happen.

I did see that other posters mentioned the fact that Satan as we know him today is a relatively recent invention. They are right; the ancient Jews (who actually wrote the Bible) considered Satan to be more of a prosecutor or adversary than the completely evil creature portrayed in churches today. He filled the same role in Judaism as the djinn fill in Islam.

Ruth

 

[southernhybrid]

I've been slowly reading a book about the history of humanity, and finally got to a section that discusses religion. The chapter that I read last night mentioned that hell and satan aren't mentioned in the OT. It's been a long time since I studied the Bible so I'm not qualified to say if that is true, but the person who wrote the book I'm reading seems to be highly educated in that area. Ruth Harris also seems knowledgeable about this claim.

He also said something interesting that I've never considered. He said that Christianity is a dualistic religion, in that it has two very powerful entities, the good God and the evil Satan. If the good God was more powerful than Satan, surely he would prevent him from doing so much evil. That makes sense to me. So, until I learn more or am convinced otherwise, I will start thinking of Christianity, in it's more traditional sense as a religion that has two gods, the good god and the evil god.

Of course, some branches of Christianity, have many smaller god like entities. Catholicism gives special attention and powers to the Virgin Mary. My husband's late grandmother was a wonderful person, and a Catholic. It wasn't unusual for us to find her praying to the Virgin Mary with her prayer beads. While I don't believe that her prayers were magical, I can see how this ritual had a calming effect on a dear woman who lived well into her 90s. Catholics also pray to saints, so some versions of Christianity have other lesser gods. That makes sense in a way because the earlier religions weren't monotheistic. They had a variety of gods, while no one god had all of the power. To be honest, that even sounds like a nicer variety of religious mythology to me. One god would be overwhelmed by having to deal with so many problems. If I were a believer in the supernatural, many gods sounds more reasonable than one all powerful god.

Of course, as an atheist, all of this is mythology to me, but I do like to understand how these various concepts that relate to religion came about. I'll have to do some more reading before I can make a more intelligent post about it.

 

[Ruth Harris]

I've been slowly reading a book about the history of humanity, and finally got to a section that discusses religion. The chapter that I read last night mentioned that hell and satan aren't mentioned in the OT. It's been a long time since I studied the Bible so I'm not qualified to say if that is true, but the person who wrote the book I'm reading seems to be highly educated in that area.

Well, not sure who wrote the book you are reading but Satan is mentioned several times in the OT. This website is an excellent resource for reference on biblical topics. But the direct mentions of Satan are not referring to the same creature portrayed today; he acts more as a prosecutor.

The actual word "hell" is not in the OT. They do discuss "Sheol" which is not a place of punishment, but more of a waiting place for the end of times. The ancient Jews believed that only the righteous would be awakened from the grave (or Sheol) and brought back to eternal life; the rest would either be destroyed or never awakened. Hell is also a relatively recent invention in the Christian faith, and in the original NT languages is actually called "Hades" and is based more on the Roman/Greek understanding of the afterlife.

I still think that modern scholars do all of us a great disservice by not relying more on the Judaic interpretation of scriptures. They were, after all, the original authors and even modern Jews are more familiar with the concepts and language usage of the ancient Jews than we are.

Ruth

 

[DBT]

Satan is mentioned in the OT, but the significance of Satan is not the same as in the NT and Christian theology.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Satan is mentioned in the OT, but the significance of Satan is not the same as in the NT and Christian theology.

Job 1
⁶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
⁷ And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

See also Job 2.

Satan was one of God's sons. Yahweh and Satan, the anything for a laugh pair.

 

[skepticalbip]

Satan is mentioned in the OT, but the significance of Satan is not the same as in the NT and Christian theology.

Job 1
⁶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
⁷ And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

See also Job 2.

Satan was one of God's sons. Yahweh and Satan, the anything for a laugh pair.

That raises a few questions...
.. Why does the Bible so blatantly ignore Mrs. God?
.. Is Mary Satan's mother or is God a horndog like Zeus?
.. Was Jesus Satan?
.. Or was Jesus Satan's brother? Or half brother?
.. How many sons (and daughters) did God have?

 

[Learner]

Valid questions...

Even though believers may not be quite sure of some of the answers to the above, which causes no "conflicting argument" to the faith anyway - They're quite sure that the emphasis on WHO they should concentrate and focus on, is more important! Reminding me of the phrase, ...blessed are the faithful in Jesus..


John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


Ephesians 2:18
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.


Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 8:12
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Philippians 2:10-11
So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[bilby]

This question has always seemed like a massive plot-hole to me. I find it interesting to discuss because it is such a massive plot-hole.

Did Jehovah not know what was in the heart of this creature? Does the story support that gap? Does god need this plot device so he adds it but refuses to take responsibility? Is Satan actually an equal god, but the book downplays his origin because that scares the shit out of them?

What’s the deal? Who created Satan, Why, and what did they know and when did they know it?

I might as well jump in here and add to the havoc

My answers to your questions in the last sentence:

1. God created Satan.
2. I don't know why he created Satan. I am not capable of understanding the mind of God completely. You might as well ask me to explain quantum mechanics in understandable detailed terms. I can't do that either.
3. God always knew what would happen.

I did see that other posters mentioned the fact that Satan as we know him today is a relatively recent invention. They are right; the ancient Jews (who actually wrote the Bible) considered Satan to be more of a prosecutor or adversary than the completely evil creature portrayed in churches today. He filled the same role in Judaism as the djinn fill in Islam.

Ruth

You don't need to understand quantum mechanics to grasp that creating evil isn't compatible with being good.

The firefighter who is also an arsonist doesn't cancel out his evil deeds by his goodness in saving some of the lives he himself threatened.

When assessing an individual's character, a little bit of evil cancels a whole lot of good.

The answer to the question "Why did God create Satan?" may not be obvious in the details, but the broad strokes are enough to show that it was an evil thing to do - so the answer, whatever it might be, necessarily includes that God is an evildoer.

Which isn't a problem for me, as a disinterested observer of this fiction; But is a HUGE problem for fans who are determined to define God as the ultimate in goodness. It's logically impossible for the creator of Satan to be a purely good individual. Which isn't an issue if the entire question relates only too poorly written fiction, because fiction doesn't have to be consistent (although inconsistencies render it poor quality). But it's a huge problem for anyone who wants to claim this nonsense as a part of reality.

Reality is consistent. You don't need to understand quantum mechanics to grasp that 2+2=4 at all times and places. Or that a purely good individual cannot, by definition, create evil.

The obvious solution is to simply accept that God isn't good. His description in the OT in particular bears this out. He's no better morally than the least moral humans, and clearly far worse than most ordinary people. But of course that would imply that worship of this God character is unwarranted at best, and downright despicable in many ways.

 

[DBT]

A common excuse is that God granted Satan free will. Which, it is claimed, absolves God from the evil done by Satan.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

This question has always seemed like a massive plot-hole to me. I find it interesting to discuss because it is such a massive plot-hole.

Did Jehovah not know what was in the heart of this creature? Does the story support that gap? Does god need this plot device so he adds it but refuses to take responsibility? Is Satan actually an equal god, but the book downplays his origin because that scares the shit out of them?

What’s the deal? Who created Satan, Why, and what did they know and when did they know it?

I might as well jump in here and add to the havoc

My answers to your questions in the last sentence:

1. God created Satan.
2. I don't know why he created Satan. I am not capable of understanding the mind of God completely. You might as well ask me to explain quantum mechanics in understandable detailed terms. I can't do that either.
3. God always knew what would happen.

I did see that other posters mentioned the fact that Satan as we know him today is a relatively recent invention. They are right; the ancient Jews (who actually wrote the Bible) considered Satan to be more of a prosecutor or adversary than the completely evil creature portrayed in churches today. He filled the same role in Judaism as the djinn fill in Islam.

Ruth

You don't need to understand quantum mechanics to grasp that creating evil isn't compatible with being good.

The firefighter who is also an arsonist doesn't cancel out his evil deeds by his goodness in saving some of the lives he himself threatened.

When assessing an individual's character, a little bit of evil cancels a whole lot of good.

The answer to the question "Why did God create Satan?" may not be obvious in the details, but the broad strokes are enough to show that it was an evil thing to do - so the answer, whatever it might be, necessarily includes that God is an evildoer.

Which isn't a problem for me, as a disinterested observer of this fiction; But is a HUGE problem for fans who are determined to define God as the ultimate in goodness. It's logically impossible for the creator of Satan to be a purely good individual. Which isn't an issue if the entire question relates only too poorly written fiction, because fiction doesn't have to be consistent (although inconsistencies render it poor quality). But it's a huge problem for anyone who wants to claim this nonsense as a part of reality.

Reality is consistent. You don't need to understand quantum mechanics to grasp that 2+2=4 at all times and places. Or that a purely good individual cannot, by definition, create evil.

The obvious solution is to simply accept that God isn't good. His description in the OT in particular bears this out. He's no better morally than the least moral humans, and clearly far worse than most ordinary people. But of course that would imply that worship of this God character is unwarranted at best, and downright despicable in many ways.

The Bible explicitly claims God is good, merciful, compassionate, just and fair and that God loves us. I call these the sub-goodnesses of God. Some theologians and theists try to claim Good with God is a mysterious type of good we cannot understand. But no, good means having the explicit sub-goodnesses claimed by the Bible for God. I created this sub-goodness of God argument for those theists whole try to tell me with a straight face God indeed is not good, as we understand Good.

There is a claim, derived from Aquinas, Duns Scotus and still be peddled today that God is not a moral agent, and owes us no moral obligations. My counter argument here is that an omnipotent God that could act for the good and does not acts as a moral agent by refusing to act. And lacks the claimed sub-goodnesses of the Bible. To be just is to accept moral principles that guide God's moral agency. and on with the rest of the explicit sub-goodnesses of God. Redefining good in this manner then commits these schnooks to redefining fair, just, merciful, compassionate, and God loves us.

Intellectual nihilism. I can't go there.

 

[southernhybrid]

I've been slowly reading a book about the history of humanity, and finally got to a section that discusses religion. The chapter that I read last night mentioned that hell and satan aren't mentioned in the OT. It's been a long time since I studied the Bible so I'm not qualified to say if that is true, but the person who wrote the book I'm reading seems to be highly educated in that area.

Well, not sure who wrote the book you are reading but Satan is mentioned several times in the OT. This website is an excellent resource for reference on biblical topics. But the direct mentions of Satan are not referring to the same creature portrayed today; he acts more as a prosecutor.

The actual word "hell" is not in the OT. They do discuss "Sheol" which is not a place of punishment, but more of a waiting place for the end of times. The ancient Jews believed that only the righteous would be awakened from the grave (or Sheol) and brought back to eternal life; the rest would either be destroyed or never awakened. Hell is also a relatively recent invention in the Christian faith, and in the original NT languages is actually called "Hades" and is based more on the Roman/Greek understanding of the afterlife.

I still think that modern scholars do all of us a great disservice by not relying more on the Judaic interpretation of scriptures. They were, after all, the original authors and even modern Jews are more familiar with the concepts and language usage of the ancient Jews than we are.



Ruth

The book I've been reading does mention something similar to what you've said. He said that the word used for Satan didn't mean what the majority of today's Christians think it does. And, as you've said, Sheol means the grave. It doesn't mean hell as interpreted by most contemporary Christians. I did find a site last night that was written by a Christian group that denies hell. IF I have time later, I will post it here.

I do think the author of the book I've been reading is interpreting things based on early Judaic scriptures. I've moved past the religious section now so I"ll have to do more research before I can develop a more concrete opinion.

But, one thing that I. found that I thought was interesting, was that religion wasn't so divisive prior to it becoming monotheistic.

 

[ideologyhunter]

So let's compare Jehovah God to the Marquis DeSade. DeSade's writing is remarkably disgusting, after two centuries. If you read him for curiosity's sake, which is why I hope people read him, he is gleefully perverted and carries on about the humiliation and abuse of his characters, who exist solely for the exercise of his twisted erotic fantasy life. But it's fantasy. Wikipedia says that DeSade's known sexual encounters were consensual (with one possible exception.) Yet his name is synonymous with unspeakable evil. Whereas, in Christian theology, if God created everything, he created a real Satan with the absolute depths of evil -- cruelty, greed, sadistic perversion, murder, abuse of the innocent -- at his core. And evil is said to be rooted in selfishness and disregard of others; hence it has a petty nature. So, how did the god of love and mercy and judgment come to instill this nature in his creation, Satan? Who's worse, DeSade sitting in his prison cell, writing about coprophagia, bondage, torture, and murder orgies, or God, bringing into the world the real manifestation of these things?

Postscript -- Then again, Jehovah and Satan being fantasies, it becomes a contest between DeSade and his predecessors at the ink well...

 

[skepticalbip]

Valid questions...

Even though believers may not be quite sure of some of the answers to the above, which causes no "conflicting argument" to the faith anyway - They're quite sure that the emphasis on WHO they should concentrate and focus on, is more important! Reminding me of the phrase, ...blessed are the faithful in Jesus..


John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


Ephesians 2:18
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.


Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 8:12
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Philippians 2:10-11
So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That looks like you are saying Jesus is Satan. Lucifer (Satan) was the light bearer like the Greek Prometheus that brought fire (light) and enlightenment to humanity. Both Jesus and Prometheus (Satan?) were punished for enlightening humanity, Jesus hung on a cross and Prometheus chained to a boulder and an eagle sent to eat his liver.