Why HRW is untrustworthy

[bilby]

Weren't there a lot of explosion shockwave survivors in WWI?

Yup. And even more in WWII, with civilians bombed in urban centres.

There are some truly strange cases of people surviving despite those around them being killed.

And then there's the famous milk bottle from the documentary 'Blitz Street', where they detonated WWII munitions in a replica of a 1940s era London street:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTgo6_qkUfU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[barbos]

Actually strong wind can pick you up and knock you over without much damage. large and distant blast can transform itself into a wind.
Just look at videos of nuclear explosions, it's just wind which destroys buildings.

 

[steve_bank]

I worked on an IR sensor for in the 80s that decded on a paracute, about the size of a large coffee can.

That particular device was an anti tank weapon. Launched by artillery or drooped in a canister it drifted gow on a parachute and looked at an IR image to id a tank and shoot a shaped charge down through the top. Google Sense And Destroy Armor or SADARM and you might find it.

An anti personnel device drifting down slowly would not be out of the question. Such a device would explode above the ground to spread shrapnel. Today such a weapon launched by artillery could have some form of terminal guidance to increase accuracy.

We were also working on a sensor for an Israeli similar weapon, I met somebody from the Israel IMI.

Israel tries to prent a moral position saying they are not like terrorists, they let people in a building know it is going to be destroyed.

Whether Israel is intentionalytargeting civilians can be debated, that non combatants are being killed and injured can not. It would be like debating American drones and smart bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan did or did not kill civilians. We make the same argument as Israel, we use precision guided weapons and try to minimize collateral damage.

Adding the weapon may not be intended to kill. The death threshold for pressure is well known.

For a spherical shock wave I imagine energy will decrease by 1/r^2. It all depends on wher you are.

In a book I read on D-Day a French family was found killed at the dinner table by the shock wave from a close bomb.

 

[untermensche]

A 50 year violent occupation with the constant stealing of land is a form of terrorism.

And Israel targets civilians.

That is clear.

 

[steve_bank]

A 50 year violent occupation with the constant stealing of land is a form of terrorism.

And Israel targets civilians.

That is clear.

I agree, terrorist depends on which side you are on.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, but it is a Hollywood scene.

The blast force to kill is less than the blast force to throw you through the air.

These are not fixed quantities. A blast can easily kill only some of a group of people. People frequently survive overpressures that are fatal to others. Blast overpressure injuries are some of the least predictable events out there, and depend on a vast number of variables including (but not limited to) the orientation of victims relative to the explosion; reflected blast wave interference; whether victims have their mouths open or closed; and the victim's body type and muscle to fat ratio. And all of that is before considering impact injuries.

The probability of surviving a blast that knocks you over is low, but certainly not zero.

It's actually not that unpredictable--what's unpredictable is how much blast energy actually hits you.

And note that this doesn't say "knocked over", it says "thrown through the air".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually strong wind can pick you up and knock you over without much damage. large and distant blast can transform itself into a wind.
Just look at videos of nuclear explosions, it's just wind which destroys buildings.

Wind, yes, you can be thrown by wind without injury if you somehow land soft enough. The force of the wind is tiny compared to the shockwave of a detonation, though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Adding the weapon may not be intended to kill. The death threshold for pressure is well known.

For a spherical shock wave I imagine energy will decrease by 1/r^2. It all depends on wher you are.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

In a book I read on D-Day a French family was found killed at the dinner table by the shock wave from a close bomb.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Dead, but not thrown by the blast wave. The energy to kill is less than the energy to throw them.

A 50 year violent occupation with the constant stealing of land is a form of terrorism.

And Israel targets civilians.

That is clear.

I agree, terrorist depends on which side you are on.

No. Terrorist depends on who you are targeting. Hamas is almost always firing at civilians. Israel is firing at combatants.

 

[bilby]

No, but it is a Hollywood scene.

The blast force to kill is less than the blast force to throw you through the air.

These are not fixed quantities. A blast can easily kill only some of a group of people. People frequently survive overpressures that are fatal to others. Blast overpressure injuries are some of the least predictable events out there, and depend on a vast number of variables including (but not limited to) the orientation of victims relative to the explosion; reflected blast wave interference; whether victims have their mouths open or closed; and the victim's body type and muscle to fat ratio. And all of that is before considering impact injuries.

The probability of surviving a blast that knocks you over is low, but certainly not zero.

It's actually not that unpredictable--what's unpredictable is how much blast energy actually hits you.

It's more than sufficiently unpredictable for your claim that this account is impossible to be absurd.

And note that this doesn't say "knocked over", it says "thrown through the air".

Like anyone in close proximity to a large explosion could tell the difference.

It's OK that you don't want to believe this account. It's not OK for you to rationalise that desire into a specious claim about its plausibility, much less its possibility; Nor is it OK for you to defame HRW on the basis of your personal and unsupported lack of belief.

I understand that you don't want this to be true. But that's not the same as your being able to be reasonably certain that it's not true. Even though it probably feels very much like it is.

False, but desirable, beliefs often feel like certainty, and even rationality; That's why we still have religion in the world.

 

[barbos]

Actually strong wind can pick you up and knock you over without much damage. large and distant blast can transform itself into a wind.
Just look at videos of nuclear explosions, it's just wind which destroys buildings.

Wind, yes, you can be thrown by wind without injury if you somehow land soft enough. The force of the wind is tiny compared to the shockwave of a detonation, though.

Exhaust from the rocket produce wind. And shaped charges, dog knows what they produce in different directions.
So I am not sure that witness's description is impossible. But if I had to bet I would bet on them making part of the story up. Palestinians are well known to do that.

 

[Jarhyn]

Actually strong wind can pick you up and knock you over without much damage. large and distant blast can transform itself into a wind.
Just look at videos of nuclear explosions, it's just wind which destroys buildings.

Wind, yes, you can be thrown by wind without injury if you somehow land soft enough. The force of the wind is tiny compared to the shockwave of a detonation, though.

Exhaust from the rocket produce wind. And shaped charges, dog knows what they produce in different directions.
So I am not sure that witness's description is impossible. But if I had to bet I would bet on them making part of the story up. Palestinians are well known to do that.

I've never known a human in all my years on earth that has been through such an event and not had a chaotic battle-fogged recollection.

It's interesting that you specially call out Palestinians for being human.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exhaust from the rocket produce wind. And shaped charges, dog knows what they produce in different directions.
So I am not sure that witness's description is impossible. But if I had to bet I would bet on them making part of the story up. Palestinians are well known to do that.

I've never known a human in all my years on earth that has been through such an event and not had a chaotic battle-fogged recollection.

It's interesting that you specially call out Palestinians for being human.

I'm calling out HRW for taking the report at face value rather than recognizing the impossibility of it.

 

[Jarhyn]

Exhaust from the rocket produce wind. And shaped charges, dog knows what they produce in different directions.
So I am not sure that witness's description is impossible. But if I had to bet I would bet on them making part of the story up. Palestinians are well known to do that.

I've never known a human in all my years on earth that has been through such an event and not had a chaotic battle-fogged recollection.

It's interesting that you specially call out Palestinians for being human.

I'm calling out HRW for taking the report at face value rather than recognizing the impossibility of it.

As others have pointed out, very little of it is impossible. From people being hit and killed by cars and leaving their shoes behind in the middle of the road, to surviving point blank explosions, to all manner of bizarre technologies, to time dissociation during adrenal release, and those are just the things I know happened from first or second hand exposure.

Nothing I read in the narrative is to me novel or impossible to have experienced. What other people experienced of it may not be describable with the same words, but that matters very little.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm calling out HRW for taking the report at face value rather than recognizing the impossibility of it.

As others have pointed out, very little of it is impossible. From people being hit and killed by cars and leaving their shoes behind in the middle of the road, to surviving point blank explosions, to all manner of bizarre technologies, to time dissociation during adrenal release, and those are just the things I know happened from first or second hand exposure.

Nothing I read in the narrative is to me novel or impossible to have experienced. What other people experienced of it may not be describable with the same words, but that matters very little.

It doesn't matter if most of it is possible. The thrown through the air part isn't. It's only in Hollywood where you can be thrown by a bomb and get back up.

 

[ZiprHead]

I'm calling out HRW for taking the report at face value rather than recognizing the impossibility of it.

As others have pointed out, very little of it is impossible. From people being hit and killed by cars and leaving their shoes behind in the middle of the road, to surviving point blank explosions, to all manner of bizarre technologies, to time dissociation during adrenal release, and those are just the things I know happened from first or second hand exposure.

Nothing I read in the narrative is to me novel or impossible to have experienced. What other people experienced of it may not be describable with the same words, but that matters very little.

It doesn't matter if most of it is possible. The thrown through the air part isn't. It's only in Hollywood where you can be thrown by a bomb and get back up.

How do you know this?

 

[laughing dog]

How do you know this?

He doesn’t - he believes it.

More importantly, LP focuses on a minor detail of a larger terrible story yo deflect from the reality that the IDF killed civilian adults and children.

 

[Jarhyn]

How do you know this?

He doesn’t - he believes it.

More importantly, LP focuses on a minor detail of a larger terrible story yo deflect from the reality that the IDF killed civilian adults and children.

Not to mention that the thing that happens when you are in an explosion is that you, for some period, are not on your feet, time will be moving glacially slowly for a half instant of that, and what might be being blown maybe a half foot, or merely blasted back and falling down from the force, that will be interpreted that way and "being picked up and thrown through the air" -- or whatever -- that will be what someone experienced.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I'm calling out HRW for taking the report at face value rather than recognizing the impossibility of it.

As others have pointed out, very little of it is impossible. From people being hit and killed by cars and leaving their shoes behind in the middle of the road, to surviving point blank explosions, to all manner of bizarre technologies, to time dissociation during adrenal release, and those are just the things I know happened from first or second hand exposure.

Nothing I read in the narrative is to me novel or impossible to have experienced. What other people experienced of it may not be describable with the same words, but that matters very little.

It doesn't matter if most of it is possible. The thrown through the air part isn't. It's only in Hollywood where you can be thrown by a bomb and get back up.

I don't think he got back up. He said something hit his legs. This is at least some evidence he did NOT get up right away. What is YOUR evidence that he did get up right away?

Since that is mentioned now, I am wondering if the things hitting his legs (and abdomen and eye) could have caused him to have moved significantly while feeling like he was thrown into the air. Here's part of what he said:

Something hit me in the eye, the abdomen, and legs. I flew into the air and landed on the ground.

I mean, there's a conservation of momentum on the objects hitting him (and him) and we do not know what those things are or the angles they hit him. For what reason have you eliminated this as a logical possibility?

I will add the following: what makes you think that HRW takes small minutiae from personal witness accounts and treats them as truth? I mean, for example, Mohammed Mohammed said that the munition exploded a meter from the ground. Nowhere does HRW say that is 100% true nor is it a significant part of the report for it to make sense. It's a personal witness statement and the fact is that it is what he said, not necessarily every iota of what he said. That is how ALL witness testimony works ALL the time. Some other person could have said the munition exploded when it hit the ground and someone else could have said it exploded just under the ground. It's all part of the bigger story where the evidence consistently shows that there were explosions there in the neighborhood and Israel military admits this.

From the report you linked:

Human Rights Watch visited the site on May 27, June 12, and July 6, spoke with 10 witnesses to the strikes and their aftermath who lived near the affected buildings, analyzed satellite imagery, photographed the location of the strikes and the destroyed buildings, and analyzed photographs and videos of the attack’s aftermath, as well as photographs and videos posted on social media.

Satellite imagery collected on May 20 shows multiple impacted areas along al-Wahda Street and the adjacent streets.

Emphasis added.

Human Rights Watch also included Israeli government's narrative and includes their part of the story, though the Israeli government only went so far in their explanation, which is a problem.

On June 9, an Israeli military official told The Independent newspaper that the strikes on al-Wahda street involved targeting underground infrastructure by hitting the road at an angle with “a standard type of ammunition” that exploded “a few meters” underground to ensure “minimal collateral damage to anything above the surface.” He also said that the Israeli air force believed – but had not yet found evidence – that there may have been explosives or munitions stored underground and that these caused the buildings to collapse. The Israeli military also told the New York Times that they programed fuzes to allow the bombs to explode deep underground to increase the impact on the tunnels and minimize damage above.

On June 2, the Israeli military told the New York Times that during the attack on al-Wahda street they were actually targeting an underground command center. The military did not specify what that meant. They also admitted to not knowing its size or exact location at the time of the attack. If they were in fact targeting “an underground command center,” the extent of the strikes on al-Wahda street and the other four streets, involving about 1,000 meters of road, suggests they believed the center to be somewhere along those sections of the streets.

Based on Israeli military videos of the attack and images of munition remnants that the Palestinian police in Gaza said they recovered on al-Wahda Street on May 16 and showed the New York Times, Human Rights Watch concluded that the al-Wahda Street strikes involved the use of 1,000-kilogram GBU-31 series air-dropped bombs mounted with a Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) guidance kit. This kit is produced by Boeing and exported by the United States to Israel.

None of the witnesses that Human Rights Watch interviewed said they had received or heard about any warning issued by the Israeli authorities to evacuate their buildings before the Israeli strikes.

The Israeli military has presented no information that would demonstrate the existence of tunnels or an underground command center in this vicinity, and has not shown that the anticipated military gain from the attacks exceeded the expected harm to civilians and civilian property. The military has also not said why circumstances did not permit providing an effective advance warning to residents of al-Wahda Street to evacuate their buildings before the attack.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How do you know this?

He doesn’t - he believes it.

More importantly, LP focuses on a minor detail of a larger terrible story yo deflect from the reality that the IDF killed civilian adults and children.

It goes to credibility. I'm focusing on a detail that shows the account is false. You just assume it's true despite it containing an impossibility.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Emphasis added.

Human Rights Watch also included Israeli government's narrative and includes their part of the story, though the Israeli government only went so far in their explanation, which is a problem.

First, if they were using ground penetrating bombs they wouldn't have exploded 1 meter above ground.

Second, look at the pictures. You can see places where the street has collapsed into the ground. That couldn't happen if there hadn't been hollow space underneath.