Why is the Afterworld or Heaven(H), as described my most religions, so different from the Real World(RW)?

[Ramaraksha]

It seems obvious at this point that you subscribe to some eastern religion and believe in the doctrine in reincarnation. Unfortunately for you, there is no more evidence for that, than for the Christian heaven you deprecate.

And, yet again, in your obtuse unwillingness to learn anything about reality, you use a stupid phrase like “lower life forms.” There are no lower life forms.

These are ALL ideas - Heaven is the idea that we can run away from REAL LIFE and hide
And Reincarnation is the idea that Cowardice will not be rewarded, that we must be STRONG, make God Proud!
Heaven is the idea that you can remain an eternal helpless child, the damsel in distress needing a Savior, to be KEPT in comfort
by a Sugar Daddy God!
Reincarnation is the idea that childhood does not last long, we MUST grow up, learn to stand on our own two feet(this last sentence cracks me up every time I write this, lol)
.
Religions were happy to create Sugar Daddy Gods happy to keep billions of shameless cowards in cozy comfort for eternity!
Push conversions, gain power!
Amazingly even the best of minds do not see how religions have reduced their followers down to shameless prostitutes, gigolos,
yes-men, sycophants, cronies groveling to Putin like Gods & being KEPT in comfort by them
.
The answer to my opening Post - why is the afterworld sooooo different from the Real world? Is this
Back in the day Kings, Dictators ruled the planet - when these religions were born life was very different
No democracy, King, Dictators ruled with an iron fist - obey or else!
And so people living back in the day envisioned an afterworld that was similar to the life they had back then
Later religions expanded this concept - a nice Sugar Daddy happy to listen to your cries of repentance, nicely forgive
And then GIVE you an eternal life of ease & comfort!
Cheap easy promises but boy are they effective!
Even the best of minds drool!
.
But what Hinduism is saying is that THERE IS ONLY ONE WORLD, THIS ONE!
There are no Sugar Daddy Gods - happy to keep billions of shameless prostitutes, gigolos in cozy comfort for eternity
Nor God is a Dictator like Putin & we are not Slaves/servants - down on our knees, begging, groveling in fear!
But such a life is what you want - you WILL get it - but at a price!
As a Dog you will be KEPT in comfort, every day you will lie at your master's feet, beg, grovel for your feet
Wag your tail, sing his praises!
All that your religion promises will come true! Enjoy!
.
Just simple ideas - what is different about these ideas is that you promise paradise to people
And people who drool, well and good but those who do not, you follow up with threats
Again people who live under Dictators like Putin better obey and support him or else!
Putin has had families - including women, children, even babies - killed!
You people condemn ALL unbelievers - families, women, children, even babies - to gas chambers in Hell!
Willing Nazis in service of their religion!
.
WE are saying your dreams will come true! Enjoy!
No threats, no hate!

 

[Ramaraksha]

Frightening to think that the top God in the 21st century is Putin! Kim Jong Un!
These are the sickos that Theists pray to!

Yup.
The next worst thing is - trying to fix it with MORE religion.

ideas to cut bad ideas - it is called democracy
Honestly, when people like you embrace Dictator-style religions - Our way or the Highway - democracy disappears
You fail to embrace new ideas, freedom of speech, esp if they threaten views that give YOU comfort
Billions of innocent people - families, women, children, even babies - to be dumped into gas chambers in hell? No problem
"Hand me that baby! Give me that child - let me throw!"
Willing Nazis are not known for respecting ideas that contradict theirs

 

[Ramaraksha]

A chimp is not a “lower life form” than a human.

It's not - it's the idea that the mental capacity increases as we go from "lower" to a "higher" form of life
Christians and Muslims are choosing to go to a lower life form - their desire or goal is heaven - a life of ease & comfort
No work, no worries
The quickest way to get rid of worries is to have a blank or lesser mental capacity
Lower life forms like bugs, trees, most animals do not suffer mental stress like we do - we worry about our kids, parents,
our jobs, state of economy, our own health etc etc
Lower life forms are spared this pain & suffering
What worries does a Dog have? a Tree? a bug?
What work does a Dog do? a Tree?
Dogs live a life of ease and comfort - Heaven!
.
Consequently if we move forward - trying to attain an even higher form of life - pain & suffering will increase
And so those who want to be with God - a higher form of life - will have to endure more pain & suffering, not less
That is why this idea that God in Heaven is enjoying a glass of Chardonnay and we get to enjoy the good life with him is false
Where is God? Where would you find Jesus?
Look for him in the Leper Colony!
Want to be with Jesus now? Not so much

 

[Ramaraksha]

Q: Why is the Afterworld or Heaven(H), as described my most religions, so different from the Real World(RW)?​

A: Because unlike the real world, the Afterworld and Heaven do not exist

Other than that they’re identical.

These are the ideas of primitive people living under Kings, Dictators & we see that clearly as I have written above
Amazing to see the best of minds of today blindly following THEIR primitive views of God
Bowing down to Putins, Kim Jong Uns!
Greed, greed, greed for the easy lazy life promised has blinded people like you

 

[Ramaraksha]

There are various ideas of Christianity 'from outside' that stray from the Christian narrative (All aspects of love as according to Jesus..) which often get distorted. But going by your understanding: How did you come by the notion that a 'vast majority of human beings and babies are going to hell"?

Does your version of hell get thrown in the lake of fire like its described in scripture? I'm pointing out the different conceptual understanding between us.

Do you also know of the difference in your interpretation between 'fires burning up forever (to burn up and exist no more - destruction) and burning forever, continuous burning? These are not the same. Are all sins really equal? One punishment fits all? I personally don't think so. Jesus has always had his opposing enemies to confuse us, going for centuries from his time (as its written, these things will be).

A dictatorship couldn't continue to exist if people started to follow what Jesus preached. He will always be that threat if people start to follow his commandments. Unless, you corrupt the message (very difficult now) or take over the churches with false or altered doctrines creating new worships, or simply just destroy/breakdown the churches.

"Heaven only if you are with Jesus"
"Good works won't get you into Heaven"
Look up any park or bus stop bench with religious messages - most of them push a Heaven that is for believers only!
The implied threat is clearly there - getting to Heaven is not based on our works, what we did in life, who we are as people
Getting to Heaven is based on belief, religion - like in Dictator ruled countries where the Dictator rewards those who believe in him,
Support him blindly, submit to him, obey & sing his praises!
Unbelievers - Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and so many more - families, women, children, babies - will be set apart & dumped into
gas chambers in hell!
.
YOU know all this - yet you remain quiet - never speak up, but hurry over to the likes of my post and start talking morals!
And you are not alone - there are many just like you
African-Americans - those who say SEGREGATION based on skin color is wrong! We must have an INCLUSIVE society
A person must be judged based on who he or she is as a person, a human being!
All wonderful morals
Forgotten as soon as they enter their church - now happy and joyous, clapping to the idea that Heaven is SEGREGATED BY RELIGION
It is EXCLUSIVE - just for them only!
People judged based on Religion, belief!
And NOT ONE AFRICAN-AMERICAN HAS EVER EXPRESSED A PROBLEM WITH SUCH IDEAS! NOT ONE!
.
You have sold your soul to your religion and their cheap promises that make you happy
But you won't be punished, God will simply GIVE you the life that you want - sold your soul for
Life as a Dog or even a lower life form - you get your Heaven - enjoy!

 

[Learner]

How did you come by the notion that a 'vast majority of human beings and babies are going to hell"?

According to most Christian sects' doctrines, non-Christians, and even Christians who don't do it right (ie other sects) are all going to hell.

I am not opposing the Christian sects on this - the destination for the 'unrighteous' starts there, yes of course. I am also sure all the Christian sects would say and agree that NO babies in ALL of mans historic existence goes to hell either! The eroneous distorted view that "reads" into the scripture as saying the "vast majority" will also be "burning forever"nonsense, is the issue. It has been a controversal question to Christians, yes,and also a conversation that has been around for a while and debated among Christians, although 'not so known' I see outside the community (the gist of the context to this in that conversation are aspects regarding individuals being judged accordingly (levels and variables) and things like hades/hell being thrown, in the Lake of Fire being destroyed, etc. & etc.)

That's a vast majority of human beings right there. Two thirds of humans are (or were) not Christians of any stripe, so you have a filibuster-proof majority going to hell, even if you think ALL Christians, no matter how awful, will escape that fate.

Two thirds of humans are automatically condemmed and not one individual is forgiven? I wasn't aware this was a biblical concept.

Taking from an assumption that you have heard a lot of the Christian sects say this... I am wondering if you were able to note the scripture they were quoting. I would ask that of Ramaraksha as well, considering that he has read what he claims of the vast majority of humans in hell - not forgetting included in the claim, that billions and billions of "condemmed" human babies throughout history are destined for hell.

Often I hear the misunderstood verse Mathew 7:13 used in similar arguments without reading the later verses. Perhaps you and Ramaraksha read these verses in the same way, mistakenly thinking this applies to "the vast majority of non- believers". Well you'd be wrong because as we read further...this verse is about the BELIEVERS, which is contrary to the bit you mention above about, "if I thought ALL Christians, no matter how awful, will escape that fate") which is a contradicting line I don't hold to. (I have mentioned this before on another thread highlighting these verses applies to Christians, sometime ago)

Here we read: it is not so easy for ALL Christians at all:

Mathew 7:13-23
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
True and False Prophets

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

This includes such philanthropists and worthies as Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin, all of whom were Christians by the broadest definition.

I can picture this.... being broadest at its most extreme, the further the notion widens out - the thinner the notion becomes in substance.

Of course, you could narrow the definition to exclude them, but then the majority bound for Hell just gets even more vast.

They are greatly outnumbered by the billions and billions of babies mentioned. If you were to entertain the idea lets say, that ALL babies go to heaven, then that would comparably be quite a noticeable diffrence.

It would require a very unusual variant of Christiantity to define the path to avoiding Hell so liberally as to get a majority, or even a large minority, of humans past and present to qualify.

Like I say in the above: It may not be common to you or other atheists, but it's a conversation that has been around for a while among Christians. Iron sharpens iron, is the biblical saying when Christians learn from each other. I know of quite a few Christians changing their doctrinal views, increasing their understanding.

 

[southernhybrid]

All religious believers cherry pick their scriptures and many Christians don’t believe that non Christians will be sent up hell. A lot of liberal Christians take their holy book to be metaphorical when it comes to a lot of things. It’s the fundamentalists w ho take every word of the Bible as absolute truth in a literal way that believe everyone who doesn’t believe like them will face eternal torment in hell.

I was raised to believe such nonsense and I personally know many who still believe that shit. One tried to “save” me about a year or two ago. I told her off, but she and I, while not friends are friendly acquaintances who have moved past that conversation. I’ve always been openly atheist around most people because I like to prove that although we don’t share the same beliefs, most atheists are decent people with similar values as other decent people. We just don’t have a need to cling to mythology like so many others do.

Plus, if someone thinks I’m going to hell, and they like me personally, it does me no harm. It probably causes them some issues, including some cognitive dissonance. It must be painful to think that someone you love is going to burn in hell, but it doesn’t harm the person who realizes it’s an old myth that can’t hurt them. The idea of an after life is an oxymoron. It makes no sense, but I guess it gives some people hope that they will exist in a better world eventually. Some people simply can’t accept that we are all going to die and that’s it. People like to fantasize and that is why they make up some special heaven. Still, spending eternity praising an egotistical god seems boring and hellish to me, even if you live in a mansion. Life can be hard, so maybe that’s why the concept of heaven was created. It helps some people cope to think that this life is temporary but there will be a better life after this one is over. Whatever floats your boat….

I’m satisfied with the idea that we are all stardust. That’s poetic and pleasant enough for me. I just hope not to suffer too much at the end of my life. End of life suffering is the only hell that exists. I’ve watched people suffer at the end of life. It can be horrible which is why we should all have the choice of being given a little help to ease out of life without all that extra misery. At the very least a good hospice nurse and the right drugs can make it easier. Some might prefer to linger on suffering and they should have that choice too. When I worked as a nurse, most of my patients were eager to die once their suffering became severe.

 

[Learner]

Q: Why is the Afterworld or Heaven(H), as described my most religions, so different from the Real World(RW)?​

A: Because unlike the real world, the Afterworld and Heaven do not exist

Other than that they’re identical.

These are the ideas of primitive people living under Kings, Dictators & we see that clearly as I have written above
Amazing to see the best of minds of today blindly following THEIR primitive views of God
Bowing down to Putins, Kim Jong Uns!
Greed, greed, greed for the easy lazy life promised has blinded people like you

Sugar-daddies and dictators = mixing water-with-oil logic.

 

[Learner]

All religious believers cherry pick their scriptures and many Christians don’t believe that non Christians will be sent up hell. A lot of liberal Christians take their holy book to be metaphorical when it comes to a lot of things. It’s the fundamentalists w ho take every word of the Bible as absolute truth in a literal way that believe everyone who doesn’t believe like them will face eternal torment in hell.

Before I was a born-again Christian, I sort of said the same things to Christians, but I did notice and was quite aware atheist cherry-picked scripture to make their argument. I was cherry picking too, admittedly. Eventually I stopped being disengenious, I joined this forum as some sort of agnostic. As irony would have it... I become a Born-Again right here.

I was raised to believe such nonsense and I personally know many who still believe that shit. One tried to “save” me about a year or two ago. I told her off, but she and I, while not friends are friendly acquaintances who have moved past that conversation. I’ve always been openly atheist around most people because I like to prove that although we don’t share the same beliefs, most atheists are decent people with similar values as other decent people. We just don’t have a need to cling to mythology like so many others do.

Thanks for your input expressing your experience and POV in you expressive response to my post.

Myself, I get along with atheists and muslims in my community. My Muslim neighbour says I'm more muslim than some of the muslims he knows (preoccupied with Western habits not God) which is a compliment. You couldn't tell if I was a Christian in a crowd unless you asked me.

Plus, if someone thinks I’m going to hell, and they like me personally, it does me no harm. It probably causes them some issues, including some cognitive dissonance. It must be painful to think that someone you love is going to burn in hell, but it doesn’t harm the person who realizes it’s an old myth that can’t hurt them. The idea of an after life is an oxymoron. It makes no sense, but I guess it gives some people hope that they will exist in a better world eventually. Some people simply can’t accept that we are all going to die and that’s it. People like to fantasize and that is why they make up some special heaven. Still, spending eternity praising an egotistical god seems boring and hellish to me, even if you live in a mansion. Life can be hard, so maybe that’s why the concept of heaven was created. It helps some people cope to think that this life is temporary but there will be a better life after this one is over. Whatever floats your boat….

I do see the notion of Heaven and Hell make good topics to argue against the "Love your neighbour and your enemies doctrinal concept", it sounds quite boring to them I suppose, Denounce it by all means, cherry pick quotes even when you get the scriptures wrong. And why not? Cos that would be unfair... why should Christians be the only ones to float their boats?

I’m satisfied with the idea that we are all stardust. That’s poetic and pleasant enough for me. I just hope not to suffer too much at the end of my life. End of life suffering is the only hell that exists. I’ve watched people suffer at the end of life. It can be horrible which is why we should all have the choice of being given a little help to ease out of life without all that extra misery. At the very least a good hospice nurse and the right drugs can make it easier. Some might prefer to linger on suffering and they should have that choice too. When I worked as a nurse, most of my patients were eager to die once their suffering became severe.

I have seen and known people who have suffered too, some whom have NEVER had a good life. We know many individuals around the world have nothing, who were born without; also finding out neihbours have died lonely. Many people have never experienced happiness or briefly in their life times. A fantasy you may call it, that doesn't bother me, but my heaven "fantasy"... I would absolutely love to see the sheer happiness and joy of those who suffered - experience what overwheming love is for the first time, which was absent from them in the world. Stardust is meaningless to them, having existed such a harsh life.

 

[Elixir]

ideas to cut bad ideas - it is called democracy

Reality doesn't care how you vote.

Honestly, when people like you embrace Dictator-style religions

When tone-deaf poseurs tell me I embrace religions, it's a sure sign that they are CWOT.

 

[Learner]

There are various ideas of Christianity 'from outside' that stray from the Christian narrative (All aspects of love as according to Jesus..) which often get distorted. But going by your understanding: How did you come by the notion that a 'vast majority of human beings and babies are going to hell"?

Does your version of hell get thrown in the lake of fire like its described in scripture? I'm pointing out the different conceptual understanding between us.

Do you also know of the difference in your interpretation between 'fires burning up forever (to burn up and exist no more - destruction) and burning forever, continuous burning? These are not the same. Are all sins really equal? One punishment fits all? I personally don't think so. Jesus has always had his opposing enemies to confuse us, going for centuries from his time (as its written, these things will be).

A dictatorship couldn't continue to exist if people started to follow what Jesus preached. He will always be that threat if people start to follow his commandments. Unless, you corrupt the message (very difficult now) or take over the churches with false or altered doctrines creating new worships, or simply just destroy/breakdown the churches.

"Heaven only if you are with Jesus"
"Good works won't get you into Heaven"
Look up any park or bus stop bench with religious messages - most of them push a Heaven that is for believers only!

Ramaraksha, those messages would be for unbelievers, not for those who are already converted.

The implied threat is clearly there - getting to Heaven is not based on our works, what we did in life, who we are as people
Getting to Heaven is based on belief, religion - like in Dictator ruled countries where the Dictator rewards those who believe in him,
Support him blindly, submit to him, obey & sing his praises!

Yes, this may be for ALL the other faiths, but uniquely not the faith in Jesus. Are works viable for each and everyone without excluding a lot of people?

Lets say, by your mentioned faith-by-works - an individual recently becomes a believer, who has just decided to change his ways and do good. But then, within that very hour of just becoming a believer, this unfortunate soul gets run over by a bus, or dies from pneumonia. How much 'good works' has this unfortunate indivdual been able to do within that hour? Purely on the works-based-faith - has this individual done enough works to be saved?

Unbelievers - Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and so many more - families, women, children, babies - will be set apart & dumped into
gas chambers in hell!
.
YOU know all this - yet you remain quiet - never speak up, but hurry over to the likes of my post and start talking morals!

I don't see it interpreted the way you view it, as I mentioned in other posts, and the line in your post that says: " I know this, yet I (us Christians) 'never speak up! ".....

....Ramaraksha - you said: Look up any park or bus stop bench with religious messages - most of them push a Heaven [...]. (which, as I said, is not aimed just for people who are already believers).

Anybody can see and read them!

And you are not alone - there are many just like you
African-Americans - those who say SEGREGATION based on skin color is wrong! We must have an INCLUSIVE society
A person must be judged based on who he or she is as a person, a human being!
All wonderful morals
Forgotten as soon as they enter their church - now happy and joyous, clapping to the idea that Heaven is SEGREGATED BY RELIGION
It is EXCLUSIVE - just for them only!
People judged based on Religion, belief!
And NOT ONE AFRICAN-AMERICAN HAS EVER EXPRESSED A PROBLEM WITH SUCH IDEAS! NOT ONE!

What is forgotten in church when singing joyously is forgetting about being in fear. 'The truth will set you free', is a significat phrase, trusting in Jesus to be true, is a signifying to be afraid no more of people trying to harm you, or forcibly trying dictate over you. Just as we read the the exampe from the desciples who found themselves 'no longer afraid' to be harmed of killed, directly after they witnessed Jesus caming back to them, when previously, they ran and hid from the persecutors just as Jesus was crucified.

.

You have sold your soul to your religion and their cheap promises that make you happy
But you won't be punished, God will simply GIVE you the life that you want - sold your soul for
Life as a Dog or even a lower life form - you get your Heaven - enjoy!

As I see it, you have a particular mind-set moulded from the current world, shaped by your earthly existence, like mine, I must add. Understandable and quite normal. Heaven is hard to conceptually understand because your mental thinking fame-work is 'not compatible' with the biblical concept of heaven - as this requires a different mind and visual frame-work, and not one that was set and moulded from what you are 'used to', or 'adhere to' in a survival of the fitest world. You need a different thinking mind, a mind born-again, so to speak. You needn't compete or step on someone else to progress and exist there. It absolutely IS a different world like you said. (The ideal of heaven to me, is not all about just me going there, btw)