Why people are afraid of universal health care

[closestexoplanet]

Luigi Mangione
Worth watching the short video. Mangione verifying he did it for the reason most of us thought he did. "These parasites had it coming."
You are a necessary hero in my book.

Astonishing why there have not been many more cases than this over the last four violent, self-serving years. Supposedly Mangione's note:

https://archive.is/7jUsF#

Welcome to the board.

Thanks, ZiprHead.

 

[closestexoplanet]

Mangione's spondylolisthesis symptoms can include brain fog, and somewhere on Bluesky we saw a mention of Mangione and Lyme disease (backtracking this now, possibly "Long Covid and ME"). The only credibility this writer has would be a few hours of conversation with the discoverer of the Lyme disease agent, Dr. Willy Burgdorfer (Montana, 2006).
Neuroborreliosis

Neuroborreliosis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mangione's spondylolisthesis links to sulfatase deficiency, which in turn links to SARS2:

Spondylolisthesis / Sulfatase Deficiency

A Patient With Atypical Multiple Sulfatase Deficiency - PubMed

This child illustrates the clinical heterogeneity of multiple sulfatase deficiency and that this disorder can occur without the classic clinical features.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

SARS2 / Arylsulfatase B Decrease

SARS-CoV-2 spike protein-ACE2 interaction increases carbohydrate sulfotransferases and reduces N-acetylgalactosamine-4-sulfatase by p38 MAPK - PubMed

Immunostaining in lungs of patients who died with COVID-19 infection showed increased intensity and distribution of chondroitin sulfate and decline in N-acetylgalactostamine-4-sulfatase (Arylsulfatase B; ARSB). To explain these findings, human small airway epithelial cells were exposed to the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Mangione's mother apparently suffered from neuropathy, so we add, at least for the sake of historical archiving, the gabapentin for peripheral neuropathy in SARS2 infection:
Nov 2020

Peripheral Neuropathy as a Complication of SARS-Cov-2 - PubMed

Previous reports have shown various neurological manifestations in about 36.4% of patients infected with SARS-Cov-2. However, peripheral neuropathy was only reported once before. A 40-year-old healthy woman presented with two weeks of cough, nasal congestion, sore throat, intermittent fevers...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The critical mistake people make is to project their own character traits upon these terrible and powerful individuals. They do not care. They are no better than one who would torture others in a prison cell. They see us only as a commodity like any other to be exploited as efficiently and thoroughly as possible. And our elected officials allow them to do so with impunity. For they do not care either. When a classroom full of kindergartners can be shot up and no legislation comes of it, they are screaming at us that they do not care.

But Jesus died for all our sins and we're all forgiven. We'll all be happy in heaven so don't sweat the small change.

 

[TV and credit cards]

The critical mistake people make is to project their own character traits upon these terrible and powerful individuals. They do not care. They are no better than one who would torture others in a prison cell. They see us only as a commodity like any other to be exploited as efficiently and thoroughly as possible. And our elected officials allow them to do so with impunity. For they do not care either. When a classroom full of kindergartners can be shot up and no legislation comes of it, they are screaming at us that they do not care.

But Jesus died for all our sins and we're all forgiven. We'll all be happy in heaven so don't sweat the small change.

I'd just as soon see them get their reward/just deserts here on earth.

 

[scombrid]

My employer has paid the insurer hundreds of thousand of dollars over my career. What has it got me? Annual physicals. They covered the colonoscopy but then charged me a handsome fee for two polyps that got removed during the procedure. The lab tried to charge me $1,000 for about $250 worth of bloodwork when a clerical error denied coverage. Insurance ultimately paid them the actual $250. That’s another fun game if you are trying to pay as you go.

Thing is. There should be some kind of back stop if something expensive happens but we should be paying for the basics directly to providers instead of paying huge premiums to insurance companies so they can pay for the biological equivalent of oil changes and tire replacement.

I know my premiums ultimately subsidize my diabetic employee and my coworker that has a child with Cystic Fibrosis and a younger employee will ultimately subsidize me as shit falls apart in a few years. The problem is the rent seeking that just inflates the cost of everything.

 

[barbos]

scombrid, the point of insurance is to insure against rare but more less catastrophic health problem where person can't possibly pay from their own money. Of course in US it does not apply, that's why that psychopath CEO is now dead.

 

[TV and credit cards]

"struggling to make sense of this unconscionable act and the vitriol that has been directed at our colleagues who have been barraged by threats."

"Health care is both intensely personal and very complicated, and the reasons behind coverage decisions are not well understood."

-United Health Group CEO Andrew Witty

You know what I hear? A statement that has about as much substance as "thoughts an prayers". Because they're not going to change a fucking thing. They're going to keep doing what they need to do to maximize shareholder value because make no mistake, that, not healthcare, that is their priority.
And this is why Mangione shouted “this is an insult to the intelligence of the American people”.

Prediction: Some twisted law to scare people away from donating to defense funds for such acts.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

"struggling to make sense of this unconscionable act and the vitriol that has been directed at our colleagues who have been barraged by threats."

"Health care is both intensely personal and very complicated, and the reasons behind coverage decisions are not well understood."

-United Health Group CEO Andrew Witty

You know what I hear? A statement that has about as much substance as "thoughts an prayers". Because they're not going to change a fucking thing. They're going to keep doing what they need to do to maximize shareholder value because make no mistake, that, not healthcare, that is their priority.
And this is why Mangione shouted “this is an insult to the intelligence of the American people”.

Prediction: Some twisted law to scare people away from donating to defense funds for such acts.

One problem may be the fact that many people are invested in these "insurance" companies. Ironically perhaps the very people being denied claims have money in these things and are profiting by being denied claim coverage. There's a lot of money being made with these things so there is no incentive among lawmakers to make them work for the people paying the premiums. Oh, and did I mention how "socialist" it is to try to regulate these things? No true blue americans want to be tarred as socialists.

 

[barbos]

@JohnSmith-jy9ux
I read a comment somewhere that sums it up perfectly. ”He died doing what he loved, not getting medical care in time.”

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The only question is whether their wait is mandated by doctors, or by accountants.

It's always by accountants. The only question is whether they work for the insurance company or the government.

How can you honestly fail to see that it makes a huge difference whether a doctor says "You don't need treatment right this minute, you can wait", or whether an accountant says it?

Triage should be based on medical questions, not financial ones.

The problem isn't with the "right this minute" cases--your system handles those. The problem is the stuff that should be handled with some urgency. The doctors didn't say it was ok for her to wait 6 months for a biopsy, the accountants did.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's the same problem as with UHC--most people aren't expensive and receive reasonably good service. But the expensive ones get screwed.

Where do you get this "information"? Have you never actually encountered UHC?

Your proclamations about it have zero relationship to reality. And I say this as someone who has direct experience with two very different UHC systems, neither of which behaves as you assume.

Showing you utterly are missing the point. You think the system is ok because it works for you--it works for most people. Because most people don't need that much from the system. The true measure is not how it handles the healthy, but how it handles those who actually need it.

 

[bilby]

The only question is whether their wait is mandated by doctors, or by accountants.

It's always by accountants. The only question is whether they work for the insurance company or the government.

You are wrong.

Worse, you are mistaking your own personal situation for some kind of inescapable law of nature that must be universally true; And are thereby complicit in your own opression, from which you believe that not only no escape is likely, but that no escape is even possible or imaginable.

How can you honestly fail to see that it makes a huge difference whether a doctor says "You don't need treatment right this minute, you can wait", or whether an accountant says it?

Triage should be based on medical questions, not financial ones.

The problem isn't with the "right this minute" cases--your system handles those. The problem is the stuff that should be handled with some urgency. The doctors didn't say it was ok for her to wait 6 months for a biopsy, the accountants did.

My system (neither of "my systems", if you include both of the UHC systems I have direct experience in) did not say anything at all about that specific case, which occurred in a third system - that of Canada.

I will not discuss the details of how Canada runs her UHC, because (like you) I am not sufficiently familiar with them as to have a useful opinion.

I can, however, assure you that decisions regarding waiting times for specific patients in both Australia and the UK are made by doctors, on medical grounds, and without consulting any accountants.

NHS medical staff don't even have routine access to information about costs. The doctors neither know nor care which treatment options cost the most.

 

[bilby]

It's the same problem as with UHC--most people aren't expensive and receive reasonably good service. But the expensive ones get screwed.

Where do you get this "information"? Have you never actually encountered UHC?

Your proclamations about it have zero relationship to reality. And I say this as someone who has direct experience with two very different UHC systems, neither of which behaves as you assume.

Showing you utterly are missing the point.

Look who's talking

You think the system is ok because it works for you--it works for most people.

I am aware that it works for most people. But I am not just basing my position on my experience as a patient; I have close family who worked in the NHS, and many friends who still work there in various capacities, from medical to administration, to policy.

And I myself worked for fourteen years with the Australian PBS scheme, as a manufacturer and supplier to that scheme.

Because most people don't need that much from the system.

That's obviously true of any healthcare system.

The true measure is not how it handles the healthy, but how it handles those who actually need it.

Yes, it is. And by that measure, the USA is the worst amongst developed nations by far.

And the reason is bleeding bloody obvious.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When you have a declined coverage, ask ALL medical documentation for the doctor declining. Ask for proof of their qualifications in that branch of medicine, proof of their license in the state in which you live,

I don't understand. Ask insurance company for documentation on doctor that they decline to pay?

No, ask for the information about the credentials of the person doing the denying.

But it's making the rounds without any reference to the relevant laws, I suspect it's nonsense. Especially since you can't realistically sue your employer's health insurance.

 

[Jarhyn]

When you have a declined coverage, ask ALL medical documentation for the doctor declining. Ask for proof of their qualifications in that branch of medicine, proof of their license in the state in which you live,

I don't understand. Ask insurance company for documentation on doctor that they decline to pay?

No, ask for the information about the credentials of the person doing the denying.

But it's making the rounds without any reference to the relevant laws, I suspect it's nonsense. Especially since you can't realistically sue your employer's health insurance.

You can make trouble for them with regulatory agencies. Currently. For the next few weeks, anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Another victim of insane health care system?
I am surprised the guy was walking without a bunch of bodyguards and in bulletproof something everything.
Being assassinated by pissed off "customer" has to be an occupational hazard for medical insurance people.

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/brian-thompson-unitedhealthcare-death-investigation-12-9-24/index.html

Insanity of our insurance system or not, life expectancy in the US is significantly higher than in Russia. Especially for the wealthy. Despite the epidemic of gun violence. Maybe because fewer people in the US die from falling from a window or from deliberate poisoning.

You compensate russian accidental falls statistics with fentanyl 1000 times over.

Fentanyl? The real killer is alcohol. And tobacco.

Yabut we’re used to tobacco and alcohol and everyone’s already addicted to them. How big a fuss do you want to make? Plus, do you really want drunken junkies running around smoking irresponsibly? We need to come down hard on fentanyl.

Fentanyl: 90,000 deaths/year.
Alcohol: 100,000 deaths/year.
Tobacco: (Old data, I haven't seen recent numbers) 400,000 deaths/year.

And the latter two cause an awful lot more problems than just the direct deaths.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Now, I had enough life and experience behind me that we ALWAYS pick the most comprehensive ( and most expensive) insurance plan offered by our employers, something that I watched co-workers refuse to do, even when they KNEW that they had a surgery coming up—and then they complained about the copays, which more than wiped out the savings from cheaper monthly costs. Which was absolutely predictable.

When it's been an option I've done the math. I no longer do the math because it always ended up being higher deductible = cheaper overall. One year my wife had a narrow window in which the higher deductible was more expensive but it would be pretty hard to know your spending was going to fall into that window. Other than that one time it's always come down to the lower deductibles came with a high enough price tag to more than cover the difference.

I can see the lower deductibles making sense if you're not paying the whole premium. We have never been in that situation, though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Luigi Mangione
Worth watching the short video. Mangione verifying he did it for the reason most of us thought he did. "These parasites had it coming."
You are a necessary hero in my book.

Astonishing why there have not been many more cases than this over the last four violent, self-serving years. Supposedly Mangione's note:

https://archive.is/7jUsF#

Reading that there are some problems but it's nowhere near as evil as he's making it out to be.

He's describing a problem we simply don't have answers for. He says they won't cover the "new" treatments--he's assuming there really is something that will work. This reads very much like someone grasping at straws and the insurance not wanting to cover long-shot experiments. Read your policy, they always exclude experimental stuff.

I was expecting to find it was either him or a family member where an insurance denial had caused a major problem, but this sounds like looking for someone to blame for what appears to be them getting screwed in the genetic lottery.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The only question is whether their wait is mandated by doctors, or by accountants.

It's always by accountants. The only question is whether they work for the insurance company or the government.

You are wrong.

Worse, you are mistaking your own personal situation for some kind of inescapable law of nature that must be universally true; And are thereby complicit in your own opression, from which you believe that not only no escape is likely, but that no escape is even possible or imaginable.

You think it's the doctor making the decision.

I can, however, assure you that decisions regarding waiting times for specific patients in both Australia and the UK are made by doctors, on medical grounds, and without consulting any accountants.

NHS medical staff don't even have routine access to information about costs. The doctors neither know nor care which treatment options cost the most.

Myopic. The doctors decide who goes on the waiting list but the doctors have no say in how long the wait is. That's the government by means of deciding how much money to allocate.

 

[barbos]

Another victim of insane health care system?
I am surprised the guy was walking without a bunch of bodyguards and in bulletproof something everything.
Being assassinated by pissed off "customer" has to be an occupational hazard for medical insurance people.

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/brian-thompson-unitedhealthcare-death-investigation-12-9-24/index.html

Insanity of our insurance system or not, life expectancy in the US is significantly higher than in Russia. Especially for the wealthy. Despite the epidemic of gun violence. Maybe because fewer people in the US die from falling from a window or from deliberate poisoning.

You compensate russian accidental falls statistics with fentanyl 1000 times over.

Fentanyl? The real killer is alcohol. And tobacco.

Yabut we’re used to tobacco and alcohol and everyone’s already addicted to them. How big a fuss do you want to make? Plus, do you really want drunken junkies running around smoking irresponsibly? We need to come down hard on fentanyl.

Fentanyl: 90,000 deaths/year.
Alcohol: 100,000 deaths/year.
Tobacco: (Old data, I haven't seen recent numbers) 400,000 deaths/year.

And the latter two cause an awful lot more problems than just the direct deaths.

Looks like Fentanyl has a great potential. I am going to invest in it.