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Why people stay poor

Well, there used to be this thing called Layaway, where you'd pay in installments, and once fully paid, you'd get the product.
I never got the appeal. If you don't get the stuff until you pay in full, why not just put away money yourself rather than give the store an interest free loan?
But now days, it is legal to rip people the fuck off.
It always was. The thing is, if the really want the fancy product (latest smartphone or expensive living room set) but don't have credit for a proper loan there will always be companies filling the market segment - for a price of course. In Georgia they outlawed payday loans. Doesn't matter - these kinds of loans still get made but now they require collateral either as shit you pawn (and they sell cheaply if you don't pay) or your car title (and they take the car if you don't pay) .

Why are poor people sometimes poor? Because while middle class people are paying 0.9% interest on that $30k car loan, the targeted poor are paying 100% interest for a quasi-1.5 year $900 loan.

As had been said before, cost of making a loan is relatively fixed and is thus a bigger percentage of the loan amount on a small loan than a large one. With the car loan you referenced there are other reasons why it is such a good deal.
- these kinds of loans are available to "well qualified buyers" - those who have good or excellent credit and sufficient income relative to the price of the car.
- they require down payment as that reduces the risk of loan going 'underwater'. No "0% down" here!
- and last but not least, they are subsidized by the manufacturer to encourage sales. Thus they are only available on new vehicles and don't expect them on their best sellers. And if you don't take a loan the incentive is available as a "cash rebate" too - thus it doesn't really have anything to do with the loan per se.

And people like Loren don't support laws to prohibit usury. I call that fucking hypocrisy.
The problem is that if you prohibit high interest loans for those with poor credit they will not automatically have access to low interest loans but will not have access to credit at all. And sometimes these loans, high cost as they may be, are for necessities like a car repairs rather than frivolous purchases.
It's not the loans themselves, it's how they are being used.

Wanna hear the kicker, that 60 month $30k car loan will cost the owner less in interest than the poor person getting the phone.
But they also cost the issuers more too, especially when you consider repayment risk, value of asset if repoed (smart phone loses value faster than cars), fixed issuing costs and incentives paid by the car manufacturer. So why shouldn't it cost the owner more?
 
And voila, fuck the poor!

Amazing how at the same time we get the "the poor are fucking stupid for getting these loans" yet on the other hand "well these stupid loans need to make the loaner money".
 
And voila, fuck the poor!

Amazing how at the same time we get the "the poor are fucking stupid for getting these loans" yet on the other hand "well these stupid loans need to make the loaner money".

If there was a third hand, it would be the "we don't want to create incentives to stay poor", by making it easier to be poor.
 
Definitely. Living too close to the edge is at the heart of most financial trouble. It makes people do things like make the payments in the ad.

That's ticket. If you're poor, move away from the edge.

Everyone should stay away from the edge. It's just when you're poor a smaller slip will have bigger consequences.
 
I never got the appeal. If you don't get the stuff until you pay in full, why not just put away money yourself rather than give the store an interest free loan?

So many people look only at the payments, not the cost. It's not just with the poor, it's just when middle class people do it they don't tend to get hurt as bad. I know multiple middle class people that are perennially on the edge of being able to pay their bills because of this--yet when they have some extra dollars they splurge rather than get their finances under control. For example, considering paying off the note on the car as a reason to get a new car.

Thus they are only available on new vehicles and don't expect them on their best sellers. And if you don't take a loan the incentive is available as a "cash rebate" too - thus it doesn't really have anything to do with the loan per se.

Yup--they're really just price reductions without reducing the price because they don't want to dilute the value. It's like the subdivision next to us that wasn't selling very well until they started throwing in some big ticket items with purchase. (I forget what by now, it was 5-figure stuff, though.) Had they cut the price the previous buyers would have been outraged.

And people like Loren don't support laws to prohibit usury. I call that fucking hypocrisy.
The problem is that if you prohibit high interest loans for those with poor credit they will not automatically have access to low interest loans but will not have access to credit at all. And sometimes these loans, high cost as they may be, are for necessities like a car repairs rather than frivolous purchases.

Exactly. If they could get reasonable-rate loans there would be no obnoxious-rate loans. I do favor very clear disclosures as to what people are paying, though, and a prohibition against complex loan-like deals.

Wanna hear the kicker, that 60 month $30k car loan will cost the owner less in interest than the poor person getting the phone.
But they also cost the issuers more too, especially when you consider repayment risk, value of asset if repoed (smart phone loses value faster than cars), fixed issuing costs and incentives paid by the car manufacturer. So why shouldn't it cost the owner more?

And the very well qualified buyer has a very, very low risk of not making their payments. Effectively the cost is the paperwork plus the cost of the money.

- - - Updated - - -

And voila, fuck the poor!

Amazing how at the same time we get the "the poor are fucking stupid for getting these loans" yet on the other hand "well these stupid loans need to make the loaner money".

It sounds like you want to make the business world into a welfare agency for the poor.

All such off-the-books welfare schemes are bad things. Welfare is the government's job, we shouldn't use Enron economics to make things look better.
 
That's ticket. If you're poor, move away from the edge.

Everyone should stay away from the edge. It's just when you're poor a smaller slip will have bigger consequences.
And when you're poor and have had nothing for so long and are presented with the opportunity to have one of life's little luxuries for just $29.99, it's probably a bit harder to resist.
You say; no, it's not $29.99. But it is. You give me $29.99 and I give you this phone. Worry about next week, next week.
 
And voila, fuck the poor!

Amazing how at the same time we get the "the poor are fucking stupid for getting these loans" yet on the other hand "well these stupid loans need to make the loaner money".
It sounds like you want to make the business world into a welfare agency for the poor.
*self-moderated to help the moderators not have to waste their time removing insults, name calling, racial slurs and the ensuing ban requirement*

No, it doesn't sound like that at all. You are just waging yet another strawman based on your lack of reading what you quoted.
All such off-the-books welfare schemes are bad things. Welfare is the government's job, we shouldn't use Enron economics to make things look better.
What in the heck are you on about now? I'm complaining about illegal usury here that has been given a legal synonym. The ad in the OP is charging a 100% interest rate for 18 months. I'm saying that should be treated by the law as what it actually is, usury... instead it is called "rent to own" so somehow that magical loophole protects it. You whine about this is why poor people stay poor, yet defend the assholes that make a good deal of money off of the poor through these techniques. That's bullshit and your defense of it is *self moderated to save the time of dozens of moderators that would have been required to parse out the hate speech, bad language, borderline veiled threats, contacting Homeland Security and Interpol*.
 
And voila, fuck the poor!
Is that your takeaway?

Amazing how at the same time we get the "the poor are fucking stupid for getting these loans" yet on the other hand "well these stupid loans need to make the loaner money".
They are not stupid for getting these loans, they are stupid for getting them for items they do not really need and paying through the nose for them. And yes, companies have to be able to make money - they are not charities. That means that if they are not allowed to charge enough to make money on the loans they will not be making them at all leaving those with poor credit unable to get loans even for necessities. Either that or there will be quasi-loan products design to circumvent such loans because where there is demand there will be a way to meet it. Ban payday loans? Companies use pawn and title loans. Ban outright loans? Companies move to rent-to-own. Ban that? I am sure they will come up with something. '
Take car loans. For most people cars are a necessity. So if somebody has poor or credit and can't qualify for good loans it might still make sense to use a high interest rate loan to buy a relatively late model, reliable but still reasonably priced car. However if you use these loans to buy a BMW or an Escalade or something then that's just stupid.

So a lot of it has to do with personal responsibility and impulse control. You don't need the latest smart phone. You don't need more car than you can afford. You don't need a $1,500 sofa and love seat set.
 
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Is that your takeaway?
Quite obvious one. In fact, you just repeated yourself in your reply, just with more words.

Amazing how at the same time we get the "the poor are fucking stupid for getting these loans" yet on the other hand "well these stupid loans need to make the loaner money".
They are not stupid for getting these loans, they are stupid for getting them for items they do not really need and paying through the nose for them.
Odd, what could they possibly buy with these terms that would be reasonable? Is there a single necessity you can buy with a 100% annual interest loan?
And yes, companies have to be able to make money - they are not charities.
There you have it. Profit by any means necessary!
That means that if they are not allowed to charge enough to make money on the loans they will not be making them at all leaving those with poor credit unable to get loans even for necessities.
Please... which necessity exists that can be had at a 100% annual interest rate? Food, clothes, shelter, transportation.

Either that or there will be quasi-loan products design to circumvent such loans because where there is demand there will be a way to meet it. Ban payday loans? Companies use pawn and title loans. Ban outright loans? Companies move to rent-to-own. Ban that? I am sure they will come up with something.
So, in what best of all possible worlds are you living in that you think you just made my points disappear. You are saying they are dumb getting these loans and that these loans should exist because the idiot poor need them and god bless the capitalists that have created this insidious loan setup, I'm sorry... rent to own, to help the poor that are stupid for getting the loan.
 
Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
Well, there used to be this thing called Layaway, where you'd pay in installments, and once fully paid, you'd get the product.

I never got the appeal. If you don't get the stuff until you pay in full, why not just put away money yourself rather than give the store an interest free loan?

Because once you've saved up the money, what you wanted or the item at the price you wanted - may no longer be available.
 
Yes, many poor people do fall prey to scumbag corporations trying to take advantage of the poor's lack of sufficient on-hand cash. However, the OP uses an example of an unnecessary smart-phone that is extremely pricey, even if paid in cash. It is an effort to suggest that reckless purchase of luxury items is the main source of their woes. However, their insufficient on-hand cash forces the poor to pay 2-5 times the price for many critical things and non -luxury items as well. It applies to beds, and all basic furniture, to bikes (which are often neccessary transportation), to computers (which yes are neccessary these days for many things from keeping up in school and the job market, staying minimally informed, finding consumer bargains, etc.). Pretty much every consumer product that is more than $50 is something the poor often pays more for due to their need to use lay-away.

This need to pay in "installments" even for basic goods is not the only reason the poor pay more for things. They also simply are not able to hunt and go get better bargains. If you live in the poor part of town, you likely have fewer stores (other than liquor stores) nearby and thus you pay more.
If you lack a car, then you have a much smaller area in which you can look for better deals for everything from preschools, to groceries, to an apartment.
If you cannot afford the moving costs (and these days, non-refundable $1000 "move-in fees charged by apartments), then you are not able to take advantage of cheaper apartments that become available in your area, which would save you lots of $ in the long-run.

Another factor is that it is nearly impossible to be poor and have a good credit score, because good "credit" actually requires that you have and extensively use credit cards. The more $ you spend on credit, the better your score. IF you are extremely frugal and wise with your money and never go into debt, and don't buy o credit, then you will not have a good credit score. IT does not matter that you've had a steady job for 20 years and have never been late on rent or any other bills. Landlords don't look at anything but your "score" which is heavily determined by the accruing and then paying off large amounts of credit card debt or loans.
This lower credit score means you'll be paying more interest on loans and will get rejected for most apartments, thus have to pay higher rents due to the few landlords willing to rent to you. I just had a friend go through this. Despite zero blemishes on their credit, he and his brother with steady jobs for the last 15 years and a perfect reference from their past landlord of 10 years (the building is going condo, so they must move), they were outright rejected from 20 out of 21 places simply because they do not ever use credit, because they do not want to risk spending too much that they accrue debt and pay interest. As a result, they were forced to pay 25% more in rent than the average of the places that rejected them.
 
Everyone should stay away from the edge. It's just when you're poor a smaller slip will have bigger consequences.
And when you're poor and have had nothing for so long and are presented with the opportunity to have one of life's little luxuries for just $29.99, it's probably a bit harder to resist.
You say; no, it's not $29.99. But it is. You give me $29.99 and I give you this phone. Worry about next week, next week.

More like the people who fall for this sort of thing are likely to make other such short-sighted decisions and that's why they're poor in the first place.
 
It sounds like you want to make the business world into a welfare agency for the poor.
*self-moderated to help the moderators not have to waste their time removing insults, name calling, racial slurs and the ensuing ban requirement*

No, it doesn't sound like that at all. You are just waging yet another strawman based on your lack of reading what you quoted.
All such off-the-books welfare schemes are bad things. Welfare is the government's job, we shouldn't use Enron economics to make things look better.
What in the heck are you on about now? I'm complaining about illegal usury here that has been given a legal synonym. The ad in the OP is charging a 100% interest rate for 18 months. I'm saying that should be treated by the law as what it actually is, usury... instead it is called "rent to own" so somehow that magical loophole protects it. You whine about this is why poor people stay poor, yet defend the assholes that make a good deal of money off of the poor through these techniques. That's bullshit and your defense of it is *self moderated to save the time of dozens of moderators that would have been required to parse out the hate speech, bad language, borderline veiled threats, contacting Homeland Security and Interpol*.

I was responding to the objection that the stupid loans need to make the loaner money.

To expect business to engage in transactions to benefit the people but lose money in the process is an attempt to make them into off-the-books welfare agencies.
 
Yes, many poor people do fall prey to scumbag corporations trying to take advantage of the poor's lack of sufficient on-hand cash. However, the OP uses an example of an unnecessary smart-phone that is extremely pricey, even if paid in cash. It is an effort to suggest that reckless purchase of luxury items is the main source of their woes.

It's not just luxury items, but reckless spending is at the heart of most financial problems.

Another factor is that it is nearly impossible to be poor and have a good credit score, because good "credit" actually requires that you have and extensively use credit cards. The more $ you spend on credit, the better your score. IF you are extremely frugal and wise with your money and never go into debt, and don't buy o credit, then you will not have a good credit score. IT does not matter that you've had a steady job for 20 years and have never been late on rent or any other bills. Landlords don't look at anything but your "score" which is heavily determined by the accruing and then paying off large amounts of credit card debt or loans.

This one is wrong. We have 800+ credit ratings--without a penny of interest paid on anything on our credit reports. To get a good credit rating you need to use your cards but the amount doesn't matter. Pay in full and there will be no interest, all that matters is that you have a non-zero balance on the day they report to the credit bureaus.

Find a bill you're going to pay anyway, pay it with the credit card, pay off the credit card. No cost, you'll build your credit rating.

As for whether you can do this from the start or not--we have a relative that's a new immigrant. His past credit history meant nothing, he was starting from scratch here. $25 for a secured card, always paid in full, less than a year later it converted to a regular card. He hasn't done anything that would show him what his credit rating is but he gets plenty of credit card offers in the mail despite never having paid a penny of interest in the US.
 
It's not just luxury items, but reckless spending is at the heart of most financial problems.
I know, I know. Trillions of bad investments led to the global economy collapsing. Of course, we had to cover those shit investments or we all would have been supremely fucked.

- - - Updated - - -

*self-moderated to help the moderators not have to waste their time removing insults, name calling, racial slurs and the ensuing ban requirement*

No, it doesn't sound like that at all. You are just waging yet another strawman based on your lack of reading what you quoted.
All such off-the-books welfare schemes are bad things. Welfare is the government's job, we shouldn't use Enron economics to make things look better.
What in the heck are you on about now? I'm complaining about illegal usury here that has been given a legal synonym. The ad in the OP is charging a 100% interest rate for 18 months. I'm saying that should be treated by the law as what it actually is, usury... instead it is called "rent to own" so somehow that magical loophole protects it. You whine about this is why poor people stay poor, yet defend the assholes that make a good deal of money off of the poor through these techniques. That's bullshit and your defense of it is *self moderated to save the time of dozens of moderators that would have been required to parse out the hate speech, bad language, borderline veiled threats, contacting Homeland Security and Interpol*.

I was responding to the objection that the stupid loans need to make the loaner money.

To expect business to engage in transactions to benefit the people but lose money in the process is an attempt to make them into off-the-books welfare agencies.
I completely agree. If a business model is to fuck the poor, they would obviously fail if they didn't fuck over the poor.
 
And when you're poor and have had nothing for so long and are presented with the opportunity to have one of life's little luxuries for just $29.99, it's probably a bit harder to resist.
You say; no, it's not $29.99. But it is. You give me $29.99 and I give you this phone. Worry about next week, next week.

More like the people who fall for this sort of thing are likely to make other such short-sighted decisions and that's why they're poor in the first place.

That doesn't justify making them targets for fraud.

Being stupid is not immoral. Taking advantage of the stupidity of others is.
 
Yes, many poor people do fall prey to scumbag corporations trying to take advantage of the poor's lack of sufficient on-hand cash. However, the OP uses an example of an unnecessary smart-phone that is extremely pricey, even if paid in cash. It is an effort to suggest that reckless purchase of luxury items is the main source of their woes.
It would signal a lack of proper priorities.

However, their insufficient on-hand cash forces the poor to pay 2-5 times the price for many critical things and non -luxury items as well. It applies to beds, and all basic furniture, to bikes (which are often neccessary transportation), to computers (which yes are neccessary these days for many things from keeping up in school and the job market, staying minimally informed, finding consumer bargains, etc.). Pretty much every consumer product that is more than $50 is something the poor often pays more for due to their need to use lay-away.
It's not just lack of "on hand cash" but also lack of access to reasonable credit which is usually due to poor credit which may be due to missing payments or high debt already carried.

This need to pay in "installments" even for basic goods is not the only reason the poor pay more for things.
That is one thing that makes me weary of suggestions to simply ban these types of loans or loan-like products. People who have no access to regular loans might really need those products for genuine needs even if it costs them more. But it's important to use it prudently.
They also simply are not able to hunt and go get better bargains. If you live in the poor part of town, you likely have fewer stores (other than liquor stores) nearby and thus you pay more.
Well there is internet shopping.

If you lack a car, then you have a much smaller area in which you can look for better deals for everything from preschools, to groceries, to an apartment.
True, but on the plus side not having a car can save you fortune. That said, most poor people in the US have cars for the simple reason that most places in the US are very car-centric. The family with the expensive ($1,500 cash price, ~$4,500 total cost) sofa/loveseat from the WaPo article has a car for example.

If you cannot afford the moving costs (and these days, non-refundable $1000 "move-in fees charged by apartments), then you are not able to take advantage of cheaper apartments that become available in your area, which would save you lots of $ in the long-run.
Yes, yes, when you do not have money everything is more difficult. But that doesn't excuse wasting what little money you have on frivolous purchases, especially when you have to finance them with rent-to-own.

Another factor is that it is nearly impossible to be poor and have a good credit score, because good "credit" actually requires that you have and extensively use credit cards.
That is actually wrong. All you need is to use credit cards at least every few months to maintain the credit as active. And the lower your balance compared to your credit line is the better for your score. The two biggest parts of your credit score are credit utilization and payment history - together they make up almost 2/3 of your score.

The more $ you spend on credit, the better your score.
Wrong, wrong, wrong! You can charge little every month, pay it off each month and you will have no finance charges and excellent credit utilization.

IF you are extremely frugal and wise with your money and never go into debt, and don't buy o credit, then you will not have a good credit score.
If you eschew all credit then yes, your credit history will be lacking, but there are ways to have good credit without paying a lot on finance charges.

IT does not matter that you've had a steady job for 20 years and have never been late on rent or any other bills. Landlords don't look at anything but your "score" which is heavily determined by the accruing and then paying off large amounts of credit card debt or loans.
No, you don't need to "accrue and pay off large amounts of credit card debt or loans". You can charge a little (best <10% of your credit limit) and pay it off in full each month.
And landlords also look at your rental history from places like National Tenant Network.

This lower credit score means you'll be paying more interest on loans and will get rejected for most apartments, thus have to pay higher rents due to the few landlords willing to rent to you.
If you pay that loan on time you can improve your credit.

I just had a friend go through this. Despite zero blemishes on their credit, he and his brother with steady jobs for the last 15 years and a perfect reference from their past landlord of 10 years (the building is going condo, so they must move), they were outright rejected from 20 out of 21 places simply because they do not ever use credit, because they do not want to risk spending too much that they accrue debt and pay interest. As a result, they were forced to pay 25% more in rent than the average of the places that rejected them.
They should have used credit in the way I explained above.
 
It would signal a lack of proper priorities.
Since the OP did not give any evidence of the proportion of "the poor" who fall prey to those schemes, it signals a conflation of bias and ignorance with reality.
 
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