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Why the Russia Story Is a Minefield for Democrats and the Media

If Trump's genius 3-dimensional chess master plan in accusing Obama of wiretapping his phones was to get people to stop talking about his campaign's Russia connections and to make intelligence bigwigs deny that those connections were being investigated, it just backfired spectacularly.
 
Elixir said:
barbos said:
Russia has nothing to do with that.
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Russia got their ass reamed when they tried to invade Afghanistan. We should have learned from that, but we didn't. Especially Republicans.
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The US and our allies had no trouble taking Afghanistan. The W Admin just decided it wasn't worth securing, and turned their attention to Iraq.
 
ZiprHead said:
If Trump's genius 3-dimensional chess master plan in accusing Obama of wiretapping his phones was to get people to stop talking about his campaign's Russia connections and to make intelligence bigwigs deny that those connections were being investigated, it just backfired spectacularly.
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That's what happens to person with a one-dimensional view who tries to play 3-D chess.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Elixir said:
Russia got their ass reamed when they tried to invade Afghanistan. We should have learned from that, but we didn't. Especially Republicans.
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The US and our allies had no trouble taking Afghanistan. The W Admin just decided it wasn't worth securing, and turned their attention to Iraq.
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I suspect that Elixir intended 'occupy' when he said 'invade', as the USSR also had little trouble 'invading' Afghanistan. The problem seems to be in the occupying process and getting Afghani's to not blow everything apart when you are so nice as to bring them outsider occupancy. But sure, the Shrub really fucked up...

Yes, good ol peaceable Afghanistan, where political leaders are free to go on drunken rampages within the capital; with an emphasis on yet 'another' (March 2017):
Gunfire in Kabul? It’s Not the Taliban — It’s the Politicians
“I thought, ‘Oh, God, there is another attack in this area,’” she said.

Half of the city seemed to have the same fear, as sleepy Kabulis piled onto social media to share notes on the gunfire as it moved through town.

Hours later, the Kabul police sheepishly admitted that it was only another government big shot on another drunken rampage. In this case, the culprit was said to be Lalai Hamidzai, a member of Parliament who once led its committee on the advancement of the rule of law.

Kabul’s police chief, Maj. Gen. Hassan Shah Frogh, said that Mr. Hamidzai had been drunk and had chased through town after someone he was angry at, and ended up firing into a hotel where his quarry had taken refuge. Then, in a cover-up effort, he fired into the air at his own house a few miles away to make it look as though he were the one who had been attacked, General Frogh said.
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And after 15 plus years of occupying, aiding, and funding the Afghan 'government', they only really control about 2/3s of the country just 2 years after Pres. Obama officially declared the war over. And it seems that our small reduced forces of about 8,400, after Pres. Obama's big ramp up to fix Afghanistan, was not able to stick to train and advise. So they began again to war police along with Afghan military. Good thing no one is handing Stinger missiles to the Taliban this time. And in polite company Afghani leaders are calling it a stalemate, so they'ed like a little more help again:

AFGHANISTAN WANTS MORE US HELP IN FIGHT AGAINST TALIBAN, IS
Foreign Minister Salahuddin Rabbani welcomed a recent call by U.S. Gen. John Nicholson, the top American commander in Afghanistan, for a few thousand more troops from the U.S. or other coalition partners to help break the stalemate in the war-torn country.
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funinspace said:
AFGHANISTAN WANTS MORE US HELP IN FIGHT AGAINST TALIBAN, IS
Foreign Minister Salahuddin Rabbani welcomed a recent call by U.S. Gen. John Nicholson, the top American commander in Afghanistan, for a few thousand more troops from the U.S. or other coalition partners to help break the stalemate in the war-torn country.
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The W Admin's policy in Afghanistan was the equivalent of taking penicillin until you started feeling better and not taking the entire bottle as directed. The chance of victory was long since lost. Not that it would have been easy, but leaving it to the local war lords... not that good of an idea.

The good news is, after 8 years of relatively stable and wise leadership with President Obama, the nation thought they'd give short-sighted, narcissistic, incompetent, and just completely full of themselves another go. :(
 
Will Wiley said:
Why the Russia Story Is a Minefield for Democrats and the Media
Hypothesize for a moment that the "scandal" here is real, but in a limited sense: Trump's surrogates have not colluded with Russians, but have had “contacts,” and recognize their political liability, and lie about them. Investigators then leak the true details of these contacts, leaving the wild speculations to the media and the Internet. Trump is enough of a pig and a menace that it's easy to imagine doing this and not feeling terribly sorry that your leaks have been over-interpreted.
If that's the case, there are big dangers for the press. If we engage in Times-style gilding of every lily the leakers throw our way, and in doing so build up a fever of expectations for a bombshell reveal, but there turns out to be no conspiracy – Trump will be pre-inoculated against all criticism for the foreseeable future.
The press has to cover this subject. But it can't do it with glibness and excitement, laughing along to SNL routines, before it knows for sure what it's dealing with. Reporters should be scared to their marrow by this story. This is a high-wire act and it is a very long way down. We might want to leave the jokes and the nicknames be, until we get to the other side – wherever that is.
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Concern troll is very concerned.
 
Horatio Parker said:
Nice Squirrel said:
Yep. Syria has been in Russia's sphere of influence since the Cold War.
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Syria and Saddam's Iraq were Baathist and Soviet client states.

Without Russia and Iran, Assad would be toast.
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"Client state" is a bit of a stretch, especially for Iraq. Right now, for sure, Syria is holding on because of Iran/Russia.

Iraq was hardly a client state to the Russian. Baathis Iraq was probably neutral/strategically allied with the Soviets.

The US was the country that armed Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war, including with chemical weapons, which we provided intelligence for them to deploy on the front lines (a lot of parallels with the trench warfare of WWI and Iran-Iraq).
 
Horatio Parker said:
I don't see any danger yet for Dems and Russiagate.

Not as long as Comey testifies to Congress that there's an active investigation.
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Though there really needs to be an independent investigation. Comey tainted himself last year.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
funinspace said:
AFGHANISTAN WANTS MORE US HELP IN FIGHT AGAINST TALIBAN, IS
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The W Admin's policy in Afghanistan was the equivalent of taking penicillin until you started feeling better and not taking the entire bottle as directed. The chance of victory was long since lost. Not that it would have been easy, but leaving it to the local war lords... not that good of an idea.

The good news is, after 8 years of relatively stable and wise leadership with President Obama, the nation thought they'd give short-sighted, narcissistic, incompetent, and just completely full of themselves another go. :(
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Or, Afghanistan was a huge fucking mistake from the beginning. A predictable one, invading a country called "The Graveyard of Empires". We might as well have invaded Russia in the winter for a less-cliched blunder.

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Jimmy Higgins said:
Elixir said:
Russia got their ass reamed when they tried to invade Afghanistan. We should have learned from that, but we didn't. Especially Republicans.
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The US and our allies had no trouble taking Afghanistan. The W Admin just decided it wasn't worth securing, and turned their attention to Iraq.
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Taking Afghanistan has never been a problem. I doubt it ever could have been fully secured, unless you wanted endless war. Which seems to be what people want, so...
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
funinspace said:
AFGHANISTAN WANTS MORE US HELP IN FIGHT AGAINST TALIBAN, IS
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The W Admin's policy in Afghanistan was the equivalent of taking penicillin until you started feeling better and not taking the entire bottle as directed. The chance of victory was long since lost. Not that it would have been easy, but leaving it to the local war lords... not that good of an idea.
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I was going to try for an analogy that would be more fitting than your penicillin one, but I realized how hard it would be to make an analogy for this fucked up Afghan anthology. Sure the Shrub had a better than chance in hell re-birthing Afghanistan into a stable state, but that ain't saying much. What Pres. Obama did was essentially, a part deuce to the Shrub's fucked up plan, where he should have known that his chances were worse. I think he did it largely for US political expediency. He got to show he had the stuff. He ramped it up to its peak for about 2 years, than slid it back down towards obscurity yet again. Pres. Obama has kept a token force there, being just enough to keep the pet dictators in control of most the cities, but little else. And this was enough to let Afghanistan slide mostly off the news cycles.

We could probably do this for another 20 years, and Americans would hardly notice. Afghanistan would flounder onward to nowhere. Eventually we would walk away, probably more for wanting the $10-13 billion we hand them each year. And then there will be the collapse. If we had given up after 2009, the collapse would have probably come in 2-4 years. If we give up now, it will probably come in 2-4 years. If we give up in 20 years....
 
Elixir said:
barbos said:
Russia has nothing to do with that.
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Russia got their ass reamed when they tried to invade Afghanistan. We should have learned from that, but we didn't. Especially Republicans.
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Considering that US "invaded" Afghanistan first and then had been lying about it for 20 years.
And yes, Democrat Carter started all that.
 
J842P said:
Horatio Parker said:
Syria and Saddam's Iraq were Baathist and Soviet client states.

Without Russia and Iran, Assad would be toast.
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"Client state" is a bit of a stretch, especially for Iraq. Right now, for sure, Syria is holding on because of Iran/Russia.

Iraq was hardly a client state to the Russian. Baathis Iraq was probably neutral/strategically allied with the Soviets.

The US was the country that armed Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war, including with chemical weapons, which we provided intelligence for them to deploy on the front lines (a lot of parallels with the trench warfare of WWI and Iran-Iraq).
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Well, US hated Iran biggly at the time, so...
 
KeepTalking said:
barbos said:
Russia has nothing to do with that.
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Yet.

I am sure Putin will be letting Trumplethinskin know what his foreign policy on these issues should be, as soon as the smoke clears and we have executed those traitorous leakers who have put Trumpsky in this precarious position with regard to Russian influence.
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SNL is not a news program.
 
funinspace said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
The W Admin's policy in Afghanistan was the equivalent of taking penicillin until you started feeling better and not taking the entire bottle as directed. The chance of victory was long since lost. Not that it would have been easy, but leaving it to the local war lords... not that good of an idea.
Click to expand...
I was going to try for an analogy that would be more fitting than your penicillin one, but I realized how hard it would be to make an analogy for this fucked up Afghan anthology.
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I think the penicillin is the best analogy because it indicates the point of no return. Obama didn't have a chance. The Taliban bacteria was allowed to develop immunity and wasn't going anywhere now. The US lacked the money, will, and determination to swing Afghanistan back under Obama, so it was pretty much go in and do what could be done on a budget.
 
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