Why the Russia Story Is a Minefield for Democrats and the Media

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yep, you've veered off into conspiracy land, strike 2. I suppose you believe in the pizza parlor child sex ring thing? (I guess that means don't order extra sausage?!)

I did not, you did. I simply pointed it out.

What the false equivalence thing again?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Reports are surfacing that there are multiple sex tapes.

Pee hookers are the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Reports are surfacing that there are multiple sex tapes.

Pee hookers are the tip of the iceberg.

What, pissing on the rug too?

 

[barbos]

I did not, you did. I simply pointed it out.

What the false equivalence thing again?

No

 

[Opoponax]

You have to understand, barbos, that is is essentially impossible for entire generations of Americans to ever understand Russia or the Russian perspective. They are the Evil (Atheist) Empire. That is about as far as most American's understanding of Russia, Russian history, and Cold-War history go. Even "the left" are basically Reaganites on the topic. It is the result of decades or brainwashing. Hard to shake at a national level.

That seems true in one sense. But what seems to get lost, or never talked about, are the alliances between the U.S. and Western Europe. Those are strong, mutually beneficial relationships among democratic nations with large economies. Russia is none of those things, and they try to interfere with those relationships to everyone else's detriment. Case in point: there is no doubt that Russia interfered with the U.S. elections in 2016. The extent to which they did is largely known, while the effect is uncertain. The question is whether Russian interference truly tilted the election in Trump's favor. We may never know that for certain. But what is certain is that it was a hostile act. So in that regard, Americans are rightly concerned and should be wary of Putin's Russia.

Without nuclear weapons, no one would pay much attention to Russia because of their relatively small economy, lack of legitimate democratic structure, and the inability to properly exploit their own natural resources. It's a poorly run oligarchy overseen by a dictator with a shit-ton of nukes.

This is not to say the U.S. isn't mired in its own ignorant filth, because it is. I mean fuck, look who our POTUS is and look who controls Congress. It's a joke. But barring suspension of the Constitution, that will change. Or at least it's foreseeable that it will change. Putin will remain in power until he either chooses to leave or until he dies. Meanwhile, in Trumplandia, it's foreseeable that this time next year, Trump won't be POTUS.

 

[barbos]

You have to understand, barbos, that is is essentially impossible for entire generations of Americans to ever understand Russia or the Russian perspective. They are the Evil (Atheist) Empire. That is about as far as most American's understanding of Russia, Russian history, and Cold-War history go. Even "the left" are basically Reaganites on the topic. It is the result of decades or brainwashing. Hard to shake at a national level.

That seems true in one sense. But what seems to get lost, or never talked about, are the alliances between the U.S. and Western Europe. Those are strong, mutually beneficial relationships among democratic nations with large economies. Russia is none of those things, and they try to interfere with those relationships to everyone else's detriment. Case in point: there is no doubt that Russia interfered with the U.S. elections in 2016. The extent to which they did is largely known, while the effect is uncertain.

How can you know that?

The question is whether Russian interference truly tilted the election in Trump's favor. We may never know that for certain. But what is certain is that it was a hostile act. So in that regard, Americans are rightly concerned and should be wary of Putin's Russia.

Without nuclear weapons, no one would pay much attention to Russia because of their relatively small economy, lack of legitimate democratic structure, and the inability to properly exploit their own natural resources. It's a poorly run oligarchy overseen by a dictator with a shit-ton of nukes.

Russia's modern history is only ~25 or so years and during these years US has been treating Russia exactly like you described - we only worry about them having nukes, therefore we have to continue cold war until there are no russian nukes or better no Russia. You seriously expected no possibility of eventual blow-back from this retarded approach?
US foreign policy has been one giant disaster since the end of WW2.

 

[fromderinside]

Yeah I think US prides itself in number of lawyers per capita. And I mean it in a good way - checks and balances thing. Human values thing is slightly incompatible with american health care system.

My focus was on the second part of my response after I set up the straw man.
Russia is still doing what Russia was doing when Putin was KGB head. While Trump is trying to move US way , way, back.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah I think US prides itself in number of lawyers per capita. And I mean it in a good way - checks and balances thing. Human values thing is slightly incompatible with american health care system.

Indeed

 

[fromderinside]

Oh, come on. Most Americans don't think of Russia at all. Those that do think of Russia appreciate it's history, enjoy it's authors and composers, and are aware of it's struggle to be the equal of Sweden.

Some of us even understand it serf traditions due to the concentration of power at the top for the top resulting in little likelihood of Russia being a democracy any time soon. :devil-smiley-029:

 

[barbos]

My focus was on the second part of my response after I set up the straw man.
Russia is still doing what Russia was doing when Putin was KGB head. While Trump is trying to move US way , way, back.

I am not sure he ever was a head of KGB, but that's irrelevant because you are wrong. As I said, it's US which did not change a bit in its treatment of Russia. It was a Bush Sr. who after Germany reunited and some people in his administration said we have to throw russians a bone famously replied I am paraphrasing here - Fuck them, we won! (Cold War that is).

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah I think US prides itself in number of lawyers per capita. And I mean it in a good way - checks and balances thing. Human values thing is slightly incompatible with american health care system.

Indeed

 

[barbos]

Oh, come on. Most Americans don't think of Russia at all.

They think a lot of russian hackers and Putin though.

Those that do think of Russia appreciate it's history, enjoy it's authors and composers, and are aware of it's struggle to be the equal of Sweden.

Some of us even understand it serf traditions due to the concentration of power at the top for the top resulting in little likelihood of Russia being a democracy any time soon. :devil-smiley-029:

There are a lot of things which are unlikely any time soon - US having sane gun laws or sane health care system for example.

 

[Opoponax]

That seems true in one sense. But what seems to get lost, or never talked about, are the alliances between the U.S. and Western Europe. Those are strong, mutually beneficial relationships among democratic nations with large economies. Russia is none of those things, and they try to interfere with those relationships to everyone else's detriment. Case in point: there is no doubt that Russia interfered with the U.S. elections in 2016. The extent to which they did is largely known, while the effect is uncertain.

How can you know that?

How can I know what?

The question is whether Russian interference truly tilted the election in Trump's favor. We may never know that for certain. But what is certain is that it was a hostile act. So in that regard, Americans are rightly concerned and should be wary of Putin's Russia.

Without nuclear weapons, no one would pay much attention to Russia because of their relatively small economy, lack of legitimate democratic structure, and the inability to properly exploit their own natural resources. It's a poorly run oligarchy overseen by a dictator with a shit-ton of nukes.

Russia's modern history is only ~25 or so years and during these years US has been treating Russia exactly like you described - we only worry about them having nukes, therefore we have to continue cold war until there are no russian nukes or better no Russia. You seriously expected no possibility of eventual blow-back from this retarded approach?
US foreign policy has been one giant disaster since the end of WW2.

On one hand I agree, but on the other, Russia made its own choices. The U.S. economy is enormous, but it's never been big enough to salvage Russia. The resources required to do that would be beyond any nation's capability. Further, such an endeavor would have required direct U.S. help. That is, Americans would have had to have taken over Russia's government for some period of time and got it up and running. Russians would've never agreed to that and understandably so. The idea that Russian higher-ups would've ceded control of their nation to a foreign power, particularly the U.S. is not really worth discussing past the end of this sentence.

The only other alternative would've been to throw every last dollar at Russia and let them do with it what they would. But that's just as unrealistic.

So I guess the bottom line is that yes, the U.S. could've done more, but that action would likely have not made any difference and it would have been a waste of American resources. And ultimately, if a nation is to be held responsible for its actions, just as the U.S. must be held responsible for its actions, then the failures of Russia lie ultimately with Russia.

 

[barbos]

Opoponax, nobody is talking about helping economically. I am talking about US helping by not "not helping" by actually stopping Cold War.

 

[J842P]

Opoponax, nobody is talking about helping economically. I am talking about US helping by not "not helping" by actually stopping Cold War.

Like I said Barbos, it is basically impossible to talk to Americans about these sorts of things. Entire generations are completely brainwashed.

 

[ZiprHead]

Opoponax, nobody is talking about helping economically. I am talking about US helping by not "not helping" by actually stopping Cold War.

Couldn't Russia stop cold war just as much as the US?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Opoponax, nobody is talking about helping economically. I am talking about US helping by not "not helping" by actually stopping Cold War.

Couldn't Russia stop cold war just as much as the US?

Well, it could. Russia also could be a vibrant economy and a country worth living in, but its leaders have instead chosen to turn the government into their piggy bank and robbed countless billions from its citizens as opposed to using that money to improve the lives of Russians. There's nobody outside of Russia that's forcing Russia to be the way it is or do the things it's doing and that was as true back in the 20th century as it is today.

 

[barbos]

Opoponax, nobody is talking about helping economically. I am talking about US helping by not "not helping" by actually stopping Cold War.

Couldn't Russia stop cold war just as much as the US?

They did but it had no effect in US.

 

[barbos]

Couldn't Russia stop cold war just as much as the US?

Well, it could. Russia also could be a vibrant economy and a country worth living in, but its leaders have instead chosen to turn the government into their piggy bank and robbed countless billions from its citizens as opposed to using that money to improve the lives of Russians. There's nobody outside of Russia that's forcing Russia to be the way it is or do the things it's doing and that was as true back in the 20th century as it is today.

Yes, russians had a referendum and voted for the corrupted system,

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, it could. Russia also could be a vibrant economy and a country worth living in, but its leaders have instead chosen to turn the government into their piggy bank and robbed countless billions from its citizens as opposed to using that money to improve the lives of Russians. There's nobody outside of Russia that's forcing Russia to be the way it is or do the things it's doing and that was as true back in the 20th century as it is today.

Yes, russians had a referendum and voted for the corrupted system,

No, you voted for a system which you then allowed to become corrupted because you didn't include any of the necessary checks and balances which that system requires to not become corrupted. Then you dumped it for a new system which is even more corrupt than the corrupted system you voted for.

People are going to abuse the power you give them. If you don't include constraints against these abuses in power when you give it to them, the system you use to give them power is an irrelevant factor in the inevitable corruption which will result from it.

 

[Opoponax]

Opoponax, nobody is talking about helping economically. I am talking about US helping by not "not helping" by actually stopping Cold War.

What is America supposed to be to Russia, it's benevolent daddy? Is that how Russians see their nation? As a gigantic titty baby that needs America's great teats to nurture it into a full grown nation?

And America did stop the Cold War. Wanna know how? BY WINNING IT.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Opoponax, nobody is talking about helping economically. I am talking about US helping by not "not helping" by actually stopping Cold War.

Like I said Barbos, it is basically impossible to talk to Americans about these sorts of things. Entire generations are completely brainwashed.

This is such a cop out. I could just as easily say that Russians don't understand world affairs because they're ruled by a dictator in police state. Or that Christians will never be reasonable by virtue of being religious. Seriously, I expect better from most on this board.