Why we hate you & why we fight you.

[braces_for_impact]

If you didn't know, ISIS has a propaganda magazine called "Dabiq". It's production value is high, and it does not look amateurish, attesting to ISIS ability to use social media of all kinds.

I read these from time to time (among other things) in order to see how those in ISIS view their religion, their place in the world, and what they think of the Western world. I find it interesting to get some of this from the horse's mouth, so to speak, instead of relying on journalism exclusively.

I'm sure you're aware, there is a large divide in the West on the motivations and causes of groups like ISIS, and why they do what they do.

This particular issue I found enlightening. ISIS is well aware of this divide we have, and decided to answer the question themselves. I'd be interested in any thoughts people here have on it. A good summary is found here on Youtube, I'll embed it below. It's a little less than 15 minutes long, and to me, it spells everything out quite clearly. I wonder how many in the West will listen to what they have to say?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HYLiMaj9Ak[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Syed]

West gave birth to ISIS.................

white race is responsible for Orlando. Nice and Iraq................

Christians and Jews LIED about Saddam Hussain's WMD and invaded to slaughter Iraqis.............

(sectarian killing and the BIRTH of ISIS) Iraqi's Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims were living peacefully for 1400 years until NOW..........

So why are they killing each other NOW like they NEVER live in peace before?........

American and European Christians and Jews divided Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims for their OWN advantage in war with Saddam Hussian..........

(American and European Christians and Jews) UNITED with Iraqi's Shia Muslims AND Iraqi's Christians AND Iraqi's Yezidis AND Iraqi Kurds and THEY ALL started KILLING and RAPING Iraqi's Sunni Muslims and ALL ARABS dictators watched SILENTLY..... the SILENCE of Arab's dictators gave BIRTH to ISIS

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I really didn't learn anything new by listening to it. They're just supremacist skinheads willing to commit mass murder. They're not brave or noble people except in their own eyes.

Am I missing anything?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I really didn't learn anything new by listening to it. They're just supremacist skinheads willing to commit mass murder. They're not brave or noble people except in their own eyes.

Am I missing anything?

Skinheads? Could you clarify, please?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

white race is responsible for Orlando. Nice and Iraq................

White race?
Who is "white race"?
If you mean "Caucasians", do you realize that that includes Arabs and Persians?

If you mean "all people with with skin", do you realize that that include, again, a lot of Arabs and Persians?

Regardless, how am I responsible for Orlando, Nice and Iraq?
I had nothing to do with that stuff.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Christians and Jews LIED about Saddam Hussain's WMD and invaded to slaughter Iraqis.............

Could you provide evidence that all Christians and Jews did that?
Or do you want to blame some specific Christian and Jews?
If so, again, please provide any evidence that they invaded in order to slaughter Iraqis.

 

[DBT]

Bad political and administrative decisions made by Bush and Co, as far as I see, first the invasion for spurious reasons then things like disbanding the military. Had that part been handled better, the outcome probably would have been better. I think religion only played a small part, if at all.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If you didn't know, ISIS has a propaganda magazine called "Dabiq". It's production value is high, and it does not look amateurish, attesting to ISIS ability to use social media of all kinds.

I read these from time to time (among other things) in order to see how those in ISIS view their religion, their place in the world, and what they think of the Western world. I find it interesting to get some of this from the horse's mouth, so to speak, instead of relying on journalism exclusively.

I'm sure you're aware, there is a large divide in the West on the motivations and causes of groups like ISIS, and why they do what they do.

This particular issue I found enlightening. ISIS is well aware of this divide we have, and decided to answer the question themselves. I'd be interested in any thoughts people here have on it. A good summary is found here on Youtube, I'll embed it below. It's a little less than 15 minutes long, and to me, it spells everything out quite clearly. I wonder how many in the West will listen to what they have to say?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HYLiMaj9Ak[/YOUTUBE]

Not really interesting. ISIS is just a typical fascist movement trying to spread fear and hate. They're making claims as to what Muslims or Arabs in general think and feel. Ok... could it possibly have to do with that they're a police state in a country where a lot of their underlings are not the slightest bit impressed by them or their rhetoric?

When will people realize that ISIS, Trump, Farage and all the other right wing racist movements are on the same side? They need the hate. They're cooperating with each other to increase the division. They want to force us to pick a side.

To that I say, fuck you fascists. Fuck all of you on either side. I'm not going to let myself get dragged into the shit flinging. Muslims and Arabs tired of Muslim fascists are welcome to join me in Denmark.

- - - Updated - - -

West gave birth to ISIS.................

white race is responsible for Orlando. Nice and Iraq................

Christians and Jews LIED about Saddam Hussain's WMD and invaded to slaughter Iraqis.............

(sectarian killing and the BIRTH of ISIS) Iraqi's Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims were living peacefully for 1400 years until NOW..........

So why are they killing each other NOW like they NEVER live in peace before?........

American and European Christians and Jews divided Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims for their OWN advantage in war with Saddam Hussian..........

(American and European Christians and Jews) UNITED with Iraqi's Shia Muslims AND Iraqi's Christians AND Iraqi's Yezidis AND Iraqi Kurds and THEY ALL started KILLING and RAPING Iraqi's Sunni Muslims and ALL ARABS dictators watched SILENTLY..... the SILENCE of Arab's dictators gave BIRTH to ISIS

Wait.. what? How did Jews get involved or implicated? Am I missing something?

 

[iolo]

Christians and Jews LIED about Saddam Hussain's WMD and invaded to slaughter Iraqis.............

Could you provide evidence that all Christians and Jews did that?
Or do you want to blame some specific Christian and Jews?
If so, again, please provide any evidence that they invaded in order to slaughter Iraqis.

The war-criminals who invaded Iraq did so, obviously, to steal the oil, and their connection with Judaism or Christianity was light-years thin, like that of fascist 'Israel'. Bully-boys and fascists will use any intellectual sweepings lying about in their culture to get backing: the difficulty is that those used by ISIS are more recent and thus relatively-more-convincing.

 

[braces_for_impact]

So no comments on what was actually said in the article? 90% of what was communicated was religious in nature. Put simply, they hate us because according to their interpretation of Islam, it's their duty to bring the entire world under the control of the caliphate and make everyone Muslims that subscribe to the same interpretation. If this is not the case, and they're lying...why? If they have other grievances, isn't not mentioning them in favor of putting out this narrative counter productive?

If you think that it has little to nothing to do with religion despite what they say, why do you think that?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I really didn't learn anything new by listening to it. They're just supremacist skinheads willing to commit mass murder. They're not brave or noble people except in their own eyes.

Am I missing anything?

Skinheads? Could you clarify, please?

As has been stated by others I'm merely pointing out that there is nothing special about ISIS. Or in the words of DrZoidberg:

When will people realize that ISIS, Trump, Farage and all the other right wing racist movements are on the same side? They need the hate. They're cooperating with each other to increase the division. They want to force us to pick a side.

To that I say, fuck you fascists. Fuck all of you on either side. I'm not going to let myself get dragged into the shit flinging. Muslims and Arabs tired of Muslim fascists are welcome to join me in Denmark.

This isn't an ISIS problem. ISIS just represents and is another example of a regularly occurring human behavior. I'm not so naïve as to think humanity is peaceful and loving and generous or is supposed to be that way. Humanity isn't and there are plenty of examples of how humanity isn't. Anyone thinking humanity somehow values love and peace and cooperation above hate and war and conquest is deluding themselves. The former is desirable but it certainly isn't the norm.

So the OP proceeds from more than one false premise.

Humans have to decide what kind of world they want to build. ISIS knows what kind of world it wants, and people who desire peace and cooperation and a decent life with opportunity and freedom of religious belief know what kind of world they want to build. What's the mystery? What problem is there to solve that is unique to ISIS? There isn't one.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

So no comments on what was actually said in the article? 90% of what was communicated was religious in nature. Put simply, they hate us because according to their interpretation of Islam, it's their duty to bring the entire world under the control of the caliphate and make everyone Muslims that subscribe to the same interpretation. If this is not the case, and they're lying...why? If they have other grievances, isn't not mentioning them in favor of putting out this narrative counter productive?

If you think that it has little to nothing to do with religion despite what they say, why do you think that?

Why do you insist on separating religious behavior from other human behaviors? Why do you distinguish between killing people to take their land and killing people because they don't practice your religion? To me there is no difference.

 

[braces_for_impact]

In reply to joedad...

I agree with this I think. I'm not trying to imply that ISIS is novel somehow in their religious zealotry. It's true we've seen this before.

For example, when Syed says:

(sectarian killing and the BIRTH of ISIS) Iraqi's Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims were living peacefully for 1400 years until NOW..........

This simply isn't true. It also isn't true of the Christians during the Crusades.

I think, like many world problems, it's a complex situation with complex and numerous causes. What interests me is those that say it has little or nothing to do with religion, because I just don't see how that's possible. I also don't see why it seems many people don't take their word for it when they tell us this. So, I'm trying to understand that position.

 

[braces_for_impact]

So no comments on what was actually said in the article? 90% of what was communicated was religious in nature. Put simply, they hate us because according to their interpretation of Islam, it's their duty to bring the entire world under the control of the caliphate and make everyone Muslims that subscribe to the same interpretation. If this is not the case, and they're lying...why? If they have other grievances, isn't not mentioning them in favor of putting out this narrative counter productive?

If you think that it has little to nothing to do with religion despite what they say, why do you think that?

Why do you insist on separating religious behavior from other human behaviors? Why do you distinguish between killing people to take their land and killing people because they don't practice your religion? To me there is no difference.

It's not my intent to single out the religious causes as exceptional. It's my intent to include them along with the other causes, because I feel like if we're to come up with a viable solution, it has to take the proper causes into account, or it's unlikely to work to solve the issue.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Why do you insist on separating religious behavior from other human behaviors? Why do you distinguish between killing people to take their land and killing people because they don't practice your religion? To me there is no difference.

It's not my intent to single out the religious causes as exceptional. It's my intent to include them along with the other causes, because I feel like if we're to come up with a viable solution, it has to take the proper causes into account, or it's unlikely to work to solve the issue.

That's fair enough.

But what do you do when you meet someone who insists their religion gives them the right to punch you in the face, and then they punch you in the face?

 

[braces_for_impact]

It's not my intent to single out the religious causes as exceptional. It's my intent to include them along with the other causes, because I feel like if we're to come up with a viable solution, it has to take the proper causes into account, or it's unlikely to work to solve the issue.

That's fair enough.

But what do you do when you meet someone who insists their religion gives them the right to punch you in the face, and then they punch you in the face?

I would take them at their word. I would use that to address the root of the problem. That's my concern here.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So no comments on what was actually said in the article? 90% of what was communicated was religious in nature. Put simply, they hate us because according to their interpretation of Islam, it's their duty to bring the entire world under the control of the caliphate and make everyone Muslims that subscribe to the same interpretation. If this is not the case, and they're lying...why? If they have other grievances, isn't not mentioning them in favor of putting out this narrative counter productive?

If you think that it has little to nothing to do with religion despite what they say, why do you think that?

Perhaps there's no point in commenting to something that is obvious nonsense. I don't think ISIS believes this for a moment. I think they love power. And that's where the story should end. I recently read a book on the Chinese revolution. Remarkably similar, yet ideologically on the opposite side. Once somebody has power they'll say any nonsense to stay in power. That's the lesson here.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This isn't an ISIS problem. ISIS just represents and is another example of a regularly occurring human behavior. I'm not so naïve as to think humanity is peaceful and loving and generous or is supposed to be that way. Humanity isn't and there are plenty of examples of how humanity isn't. Anyone thinking humanity somehow values love and peace and cooperation above hate and war and conquest is deluding themselves. The former is desirable but it certainly isn't the norm.

So the OP proceeds from more than one false premise.

I agree completely. But that doesn't mean the only solution is picking any random side and start flinging hate. Better to refuse to pick a side until the sides open up for more reasonable people. When waters are calm politics tend to be centrist and non-radical. That's what I want.

Humans have to decide what kind of world they want to build. ISIS knows what kind of world it wants, and people who desire peace and cooperation and a decent life with opportunity and freedom of religious belief know what kind of world they want to build. What's the mystery? What problem is there to solve that is unique to ISIS? There isn't one.

ISIS is a central committee around Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. Don't confuse his ambitions with his followers ambition. I'm pretty sure that his followers are primarily in this to defeat Assad. When Assad is gone, that's when Baghdadi's internal challengers will surface. There's always a more moderate clique within any movement. Then we'll see if Baghdadi is up to the task of staying in power. That's not obvious.

But most importantly I think religion and Islam is largely irrelevant in this war. ISIS is an anti-Assad banner around which to flock. It's also the only anti-Assad banner which seems to stand a chance. And that is all it is.

 

[funinspace]

West gave birth to ISIS.................

I can live with calling the west the midwife giving birth to baby Frankenstein (aka ISIS). However, the bastard's mother should probably be called Ms. Saud, and it's father is Erdogan. Franke has lots of ant and uncles as well, some more obscure than others but might hail from Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, and maybe even Israel.

white race is responsible for Orlando. Nice and Iraq................

Yes, we are all caucasians...

Christians and Jews LIED about Saddam Hussain's WMD and invaded to slaughter Iraqis.............

Well American leadership certainly did...

(sectarian killing and the BIRTH of ISIS) Iraqi's Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims were living peacefully for 1400 years until NOW..........

ROTFLMAO
https://www.cfr.org/peace-conflict-and-human-rights/sunni-shia-divide/p33176#!/

Islam’s schism, simmering for fourteen centuries, doesn’t explain all the political, economic, and geostrategic factors involved in these conflicts, but it has become one prism through which to understand the underlying tensions. Two countries that compete for the leadership of Islam, Sunni Saudi Arabia and Shia Iran, have used the sectarian divide to further their ambitions.
<snip>
Sunnis dominated the first nine centuries of Islamic rule (excluding the Shia Fatimid dynasty) until the Safavid dynasty was established in Persia in 1501. The Safavids made Shia Islam the state religion, and over the following two centuries they fought with the Ottomans, the seat of the Sunni caliphate.

Sure Shia and Sunni Muslims have lived in peace, but they have also declared each other heretics and gone to war. In fact they have acted very human, much like Christians, Hindu's and atheists...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So no comments on what was actually said in the article? 90% of what was communicated was religious in nature. Put simply, they hate us because according to their interpretation of Islam, it's their duty to bring the entire world under the control of the caliphate and make everyone Muslims that subscribe to the same interpretation. If this is not the case, and they're lying...why? If they have other grievances, isn't not mentioning them in favor of putting out this narrative counter productive?

If you think that it has little to nothing to do with religion despite what they say, why do you think that?

Well, it's like how the US Civil War wasn't about slavery. No matter how many times you point to however many documents where the Slaveholding States spelled out clearly and consistently that this was the one issue they were leaving the country over, you'll always get people patiently explaining to you how irrelevant that topic was and how all the people who started the war did so for completely different reasons which were really important to them despite the fact that they never got around to ever mentioning them.