Why we should all convert

[SLD]

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...act-of-religious-practice-on-social-stability

I ran into the above article while looking for some other things and thought this was interesting. Apparently,

Regular attendance at religious services is linked to healthy, stable family life, strong marriages, and well-behaved children. The practice of Religion also leads to a reduction in the incidence of domestic abuse, crime, substance abuse, and addiction. In addition, religious practice leads to an increase in physical and mental health, longevity, and education attainment. Moreover, these effects are intergenerational, as grandparents and parents pass on the benefits to the next generations.

The article goes on to cite all sorts of studies to support this contention.

But I also have read other indications that the more religious a society is, the less wealthy it tends to be, the more crime ridden, the larger the divorce rate, and the less healthy it is.

So who is right? Scientifically that is. Personal anecdotes while interesting don't counter the weight of statistics.

SLD

 

[Brian63]

I do not have statistics any way to back up any of those contentions, but my own impression from just my own observations has been that the following is true:

But I also have read other indications that the more religious a society is, the less wealthy it tends to be, the more crime ridden, the larger the divorce rate, and the less healthy it is.

However, one very important point worth noting is that while that may be true, it is not *because* the society is religious that it also then exhibits those other traits. Rather, the generalization works in the other direction. Because the society is less wealthy, more crime ridden, has a higher divorce rate, is less healthy, etc., the more likely that it will then adopt various religious beliefs and practices. As a generalization, people tend to be less religious when their life is going well, and will be more religious when there are various problems with it. Those problems can be medical, financial, legal, familial, social, psychological, etc., etc., etc. Religion provides a variety of feel-good messages and doctrines, at least for some of the religions. For other religions that are less so, the inherent tribalistic and community nature of the religious customs and practices still can work to have that same effect.

Brian

 

[Ford]

Great. So we should all convert to Islam.


I mean...it is a religion after all.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Fist off, I wouldn't trust anything the Heritage Foundation had to say without some extensive research. I mean so far a cursory look at articles written by Patrick F. Fagan, Ph.D. (Family Research Council guy, we know how scholarly they are) includes such gems as Dr Patrick Fagan’s Research in 2010 Proves Lesbianism is Learned Behavior Not Innate and his name appears in lots of fun places like the Debunking Dawkins blog and other places tied to Catholic marriage anti-equality. Secondly, even if this were indeed the case it doesn't mean that religion per se is the cause. It could be something that many religions have in common. So, Given this incredibly enlightening information from the Heritage Foundation, surely they won't mind us rigorously dissecting every aspect of religion to further our knowledge now would they?

 

[Underseer]

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...act-of-religious-practice-on-social-stability

I ran into the above article while looking for some other things and thought this was interesting. Apparently,

Regular attendance at religious services is linked to healthy, stable family life, strong marriages, and well-behaved children. The practice of Religion also leads to a reduction in the incidence of domestic abuse, crime, substance abuse, and addiction. In addition, religious practice leads to an increase in physical and mental health, longevity, and education attainment. Moreover, these effects are intergenerational, as grandparents and parents pass on the benefits to the next generations.

The article goes on to cite all sorts of studies to support this contention.

But I also have read other indications that the more religious a society is, the less wealthy it tends to be, the more crime ridden, the larger the divorce rate, and the less healthy it is.

So who is right? Scientifically that is. Personal anecdotes while interesting don't counter the weight of statistics.

SLD

Sorry that I don't have a source, but someone did a follow up study and found out what was going on in this study.

You see, most of the theists in this study attend church every week and thus are part of an extra-familial community which they attend regularly.

When they controlled for this (compared theists to atheists who regularly attend some sort of group function outside the home to each other, and compare theists and atheists who do not to each other), the differences between theists and atheists disappeared.

Again, I apologize for not having a source to cite on this, so take it with a grain of salt, but from what I understand you'll get the exact same benefits from joining a bowling club or the local Shriners or just about anything that involves regular social interaction with a group outside the home. Hopefully, someone with better Google-fu than me can dig up a link.

 

[The Paul]

...but from what I understand you'll get the exact same benefits from joining a bowling club or the local Shriners or just about anything that involves regular social interaction with a group outside the home.

Is it that those things provide a benefit, or is it that people who are stable and reliable enough to be a part of those organizations are more likely to have their shit together?

 

[dystopian]

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...act-of-religious-practice-on-social-stability

I ran into the above article while looking for some other things and thought this was interesting. Apparently,

Regular attendance at religious services is linked to healthy, stable family life, strong marriages, and well-behaved children. The practice of Religion also leads to a reduction in the incidence of domestic abuse, crime, substance abuse, and addiction. In addition, religious practice leads to an increase in physical and mental health, longevity, and education attainment. Moreover, these effects are intergenerational, as grandparents and parents pass on the benefits to the next generations.

There are many studies that would seem to strongly contradict these claims. Divorce rates in the US for instances are much higher among Christians than they are among non-Christians (and within Christianity, it is the conservative Christians (which I assume are more likely to be practicing) that are more likely to); and they represent a much higher percentage of the prison population too which completely undermines the claims about crime. The claims about education attainment are also undermined by the fact that in the US, Christians and Muslims are the least likely to pass through the highest ranks of education, with other groups being significantly more likely to do so (Hindus seem to beat out everyone by a wide margin for some reason). The claims about mental health and longevity do seem to hold up, but *only* in the US; the same results have not been replicated in secular European countries that have equivalent levels of development but where unbelievers aren't marginalized (being marginalized could lead to depression, which has demonstrable negative effects on health and therefore longevity). It should also be pointed out that the US actually has a significant lower overall life expectancy than most (but not all) of secular Europe; which would suggest that you're likely still better off in a secular society.

Of course, that all DOES pretty much apply to the population that self-identifies as being part of a specific religion; which does not necessarily mean that they are 'practicing"; the argument could be made that there's a significant difference between those two groups, but I strongly doubt any such conclusions. In any case, looking at the total body of evidence, it seems clear that the more religious a society is, the greater the overall harm inflicted. Even if one could conclusively demonstrate that within a religious society the ones that practice religion (instead of just identify as being part of it) are better off than even those who are not in the religion at all; it does not follow that those people would necessarily be better off than if they lived as non-religious people in a largely secular society.

 

[dystopian]

Again, I apologize for not having a source to cite on this, so take it with a grain of salt, but from what I understand you'll get the exact same benefits from joining a bowling club or the local Shriners or just about anything that involves regular social interaction with a group outside the home. Hopefully, someone with better Google-fu than me can dig up a link.

I couldn't find a source for that, alas; I just got a shittonne of blogs/sites calling the Heritage foundation out on OTHER studies it's published; so there's that.

It makes perfect sense though, that it is community that does the trick, and not so much a specifically religious community. Maybe the specific beliefs of a specific religions could give a slight edge; as in, if you believe you're going to heaven when you die and that your loved ones who have died are already there, then that's more likely to make you content and therefore less likely to become depressed (with the health consequences that entails); but that's a two edged sword when you consider that the religion could just as easily make you paranoid about everything you do and like because God's watching and you're going to hell if you masturbate.

Of course, you won't find conservative christians (or indeed, christians in general) acknowledge that their religion has the same benefit as a bowling club.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Of course, you won't find conservative christians (or indeed, christians in general) acknowledge that their religion has the same benefit as a bowling club.

Actually, you do find that. It's a hail-mary stopgap defense.
When you ask, suppose someone actually convinced you that gods cannot exist, what would you do, some insist that they'd still attend and go through the rituals because________, then they reference a study that shows worship is good for you.
Or, like Syed, they just insist that members of a church
act better
live better
ARE better
than the rank and file atheists who are going to die of a drug overdose while raping a minor through the bars of their prison cell...

 

[dystopian]

Of course, you won't find conservative christians (or indeed, christians in general) acknowledge that their religion has the same benefit as a bowling club.

Actually, you do find that. It's a hail-mary stopgap defense.
When you ask, suppose someone actually convinced you that gods cannot exist, what would you do, some insist that they'd still attend and go through the rituals because________, then they reference a study that shows worship is good for you.
Or, like Syed, they just insist that members of a church
act better
live better
ARE better
than the rank and file atheists who are going to die of a drug overdose while raping a minor through the bars of their prison cell...

That's... not admitting that being part of their religion has the same benefit as joining a bowlingclub; that's the exact opposite: admitting that sure, religion isn't *true*, but it's still better than just being part of a bowling club.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

That stat of there being more Christians in jail; does that control for conversions while in prison?

 

[dystopian]

That stat of there being more Christians in jail; does that control for conversions while in prison?

I doubt it; but I don't think that including that would change the fundamental results overly much. Atheists make up only 0.07% of the US prison population willing to identify their religious beliefs (the common figure cited is 0.2%), it'd require an implausibly large number of in-prison conversions to make up the difference.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Data that is derived from self reporting is 100% anecdotal. So the results ain't worth shit. You're better off watching daytime television like you see in Lobbies and waiting rooms, the kinda stuff that will drive an intelligent person batshit crazy in a matter of minutes.

 

[Perspicuo]

If true, it only underlines what many distinguished disbelievers have said: We do not take resort in comforting illusions. We are, to put it simply, brave.

We're mother fuckin' brave.

 

[Unbeatable]

If true, it only underlines what many distinguished disbelievers have said: We do not take resort in comforting illusions. We are, to put it simply, brave.

We're mother fuckin' brave.

Virtue seems like a comforting illusion to me. As do continuity of self, autonomy, significance, self-confidence, etc. We appear merely to lack a particular subset of comforting illusions-- those obviously at odds with empirical reality.

 

[ideologyhunter]

The religions that teach abstinence from smoking, alcohol, and sex out of wedlock do hit on longevity factors. But since their creeds are built on ridiculous tales, I'm fucked. And motherf'in brave. Anyway, I don't smoke and I can't stand the taste of alcohol. I'd like to be the 100-year-old atheist (in 2054) who scoffs at the superior lifestyle of the born agains, as they die early from chicken and tater potluck supper-related anginas.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

That stat of there being more Christians in jail; does that control for conversions while in prison?

I doubt it; but I don't think that including that would change the fundamental results overly much. Atheists make up only 0.07% of the US prison population willing to identify their religious beliefs (the common figure cited is 0.2%), it'd require an implausibly large number of in-prison conversions to make up the difference.

Wouldn't most atheists in jail want to pretend to be Christians? I know I would. It could get you earlier parole and dissuade some violent inmates from targeting you.

 

[Underseer]

...but from what I understand you'll get the exact same benefits from joining a bowling club or the local Shriners or just about anything that involves regular social interaction with a group outside the home.

Is it that those things provide a benefit, or is it that people who are stable and reliable enough to be a part of those organizations are more likely to have their shit together?

Human beings are social mammals. It makes sense to me that more social interaction would make us happier and healthier.

 

[dystopian]

Wouldn't most atheists in jail want to pretend to be Christians? I know I would. It could get you earlier parole and dissuade some violent inmates from targeting you.

That honestly seems like an incredibly naive argument to me. Violent inmates will *not* be dissuaded from targeting you just because you're Christian (maybe some of the hardcore fundamentalists among them, but they might be just as likely to stab you for not being Christian *enough*; and then there's the risk of earning the ire of violent inmates of *other* religions* who don't like you getting in good graces with the Jesus freaks); and I seriously doubt that even the US judicial system is designed in such a way as to give preferential treatment based on religious affiliation.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I seriously doubt that even the US judicial system is designed in such a way as to give preferential treatment based on religious affiliation.

Really? It would not surprise me in the slightest.

Bubba did nasty crimes and went to jail. He was a heathen then, but now he's found God and he has repented to Jesus and today he wouldn't hurt a fly....