Why we should bring back vocational training

[AthenaAwakened]

post the direct quotes with links to their source

Aren't shop classes and such more expensive to provide compared to classrooms dedicated to teaching literature and mathematics?

That has been an excuse given for cutting Voc.Ed., but that's only if you look at the short term. An employable and employed workforce always pays for itself in the long run.

^^^ that

Here was the thread. Page 4 for example. I asked where do we draw the line and ppl said no line.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...Plan/page4&highlight=higher+education+classes

How is this not "useful"?

What does this have to do with Vocational Education?

 

[Trausti]

post the direct quotes with links to their source

Aren't shop classes and such more expensive to provide compared to classrooms dedicated to teaching literature and mathematics?

That has been an excuse given for cutting Voc.Ed., but that's only if you look at the short term. An employable and employed workforce always pays for itself in the long run.

^^^ that

Here was the thread. Page 4 for example. I asked where do we draw the line and ppl said no line.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...Plan/page4&highlight=higher+education+classes

How is this not "useful"?

What does this have to do with Vocational Education?

That colleges are filled with nonsense and a person might be better off avoiding it.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

post the direct quotes with links to their source

Aren't shop classes and such more expensive to provide compared to classrooms dedicated to teaching literature and mathematics?

That has been an excuse given for cutting Voc.Ed., but that's only if you look at the short term. An employable and employed workforce always pays for itself in the long run.

^^^ that

Here was the thread. Page 4 for example. I asked where do we draw the line and ppl said no line.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...Plan/page4&highlight=higher+education+classes

How is this not "useful"?

What does this have to do with Vocational Education?

That colleges are filled with nonsense and a person might be better off avoiding it.

So there is nothing else at college to learn but what you call nonsense, not a single thing but nonsense as defined by you?

Education, no matter what kind is suppose to broaden our minds. The ideas of education do not compete with one another, there is room for learning all kinds of things. All knowledge should at least be sampled, even things the some people call nonsense. Such ideas, if nothing else, serve as object lessons in recognizing bad ideas and fallacious thinking.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I fully support having a lot more vocational training. It would be a lot better education for the price than the current systems provide and it would be a good thing to have as part of the college system for those who want to learn for personal reasons. These days, if you wanted to take Homeowner Plumbing 101 where would you go?

 

[barbos]

These days, if you wanted to take Homeowner Plumbing 101 where would you go?

Harvard? I am pretty sure they have great professors of plumbing there.

 

[JonA]

post the direct quotes with links to their source

Aren't shop classes and such more expensive to provide compared to classrooms dedicated to teaching literature and mathematics?

That has been an excuse given for cutting Voc.Ed., but that's only if you look at the short term. An employable and employed workforce always pays for itself in the long run.

^^^ that

Here was the thread. Page 4 for example. I asked where do we draw the line and ppl said no line.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...Plan/page4&highlight=higher+education+classes

How is this not "useful"?

What does this have to do with Vocational Education?

That colleges are filled with nonsense and a person might be better off avoiding it.

So there is nothing else at college to learn but what you call nonsense, not a single thing but nonsense as defined by you?

Education, no matter what kind is suppose to broaden our minds. The ideas of education do not compete with one another, there is room for learning all kinds of things. All knowledge should at least be sampled, even things the some people call nonsense. Such ideas, if nothing else, serve as object lessons in recognizing bad ideas and fallacious thinking.

Unfortunately the real world is made of real people with real priorities and real limits to their time and money.

 

[Rhea]

Completely agree with the benefit of having a resurgence of voc training and public support of same. It would benefit us all and fast.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

post the direct quotes with links to their source

Aren't shop classes and such more expensive to provide compared to classrooms dedicated to teaching literature and mathematics?

That has been an excuse given for cutting Voc.Ed., but that's only if you look at the short term. An employable and employed workforce always pays for itself in the long run.

^^^ that

Here was the thread. Page 4 for example. I asked where do we draw the line and ppl said no line.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...Plan/page4&highlight=higher+education+classes

How is this not "useful"?

What does this have to do with Vocational Education?

That colleges are filled with nonsense and a person might be better off avoiding it.

So there is nothing else at college to learn but what you call nonsense, not a single thing but nonsense as defined by you?

Education, no matter what kind is suppose to broaden our minds. The ideas of education do not compete with one another, there is room for learning all kinds of things. All knowledge should at least be sampled, even things the some people call nonsense. Such ideas, if nothing else, serve as object lessons in recognizing bad ideas and fallacious thinking.

Unfortunately the real world is made of real people with real priorities and real limits to their time and money.

So no one, even people with time and money, should be allowed to study what other's define as nonsense?

 

[laughing dog]

Unfortunately the real world is made of real people with real priorities and real limits to their time and money.

And this is pertinent to the discussion because you believe that real people with real priorities and real limits to their time and money are
1) incapable of selecting a course of study for themselves, or
2) the ones who ought to be deciding for others what should or should not be studied?

 

[Trausti]

So there is nothing else at college to learn but what you call nonsense, not a single thing but nonsense as defined by you?

Well, I didn't write that. But I'd say that a lot that is taught is nonsense. I'm not against education. I've much in favor of it. Yet, education to "broaden our minds" can be obtained readily elsewhere, without going into debt for a useless degree. Want to learn a foreign language? Curious about the history of this or the history of that? Would like to brush up on your math skills or learn more complex math? Interested in 17th Century French literature? Don't need college for any of that. In the times we live in there is free or inexpensive access to a bounty of information. Piling on debt for a degree showing you're educated in the "unmarked whiteness that incorporates certain previously stigmatized transgender bodies" doesn't make you smart. It makes you dumb.

 

[ronburgundy]

post the direct quotes with links to their source

Aren't shop classes and such more expensive to provide compared to classrooms dedicated to teaching literature and mathematics?

That has been an excuse given for cutting Voc.Ed., but that's only if you look at the short term. An employable and employed workforce always pays for itself in the long run.

^^^ that

Here was the thread. Page 4 for example. I asked where do we draw the line and ppl said no line.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...Plan/page4&highlight=higher+education+classes

How is this not "useful"?

What does this have to do with Vocational Education?

That colleges are filled with nonsense and a person might be better off avoiding it.

While there is too much nonsense in colleges for my liking, there is still far less of it there than in the world more generally. So, is your advice that people kill themselves?

 

[Trausti]

While there is too much nonsense in colleges for my liking, there is still far less of it there than in the world more generally. So, is your advice that people kill themselves?

Yes. That's exactly where I was going with this. You're a smart one. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[fromderinside]

So there is nothing else at college to learn but what you call nonsense, not a single thing but nonsense as defined by you?

Well, I didn't write that. But I'd say that a lot that is taught is nonsense. I'm not against education. I've much in favor of it. Yet, education to "broaden our minds" can be obtained readily elsewhere, without going into debt for a useless degree. Want to learn a foreign language? Curious about the history of this or the history of that? Would like to brush up on your math skills or learn more complex math? Interested in 17th Century French literature? Don't need college for any of that. In the times we live in there is free or inexpensive access to a bounty of information. Piling on debt for a degree showing you're educated in the "unmarked whiteness that incorporates certain previously stigmatized transgender bodies" doesn't make you smart. It makes you dumb.

 Reed College

Loren Pope, former education editor for The New York Times, writes about Reed in Colleges That Change Lives, saying, "If you're a genuine intellectual, live the life of the mind, and want to learn for the sake of learning, the place most likely to empower you is not Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Chicago, or Stanford. It is the most intellectual college in the country—Reed in Portland, Oregon

 

[JonA]

post the direct quotes with links to their source

Aren't shop classes and such more expensive to provide compared to classrooms dedicated to teaching literature and mathematics?

That has been an excuse given for cutting Voc.Ed., but that's only if you look at the short term. An employable and employed workforce always pays for itself in the long run.

^^^ that

Here was the thread. Page 4 for example. I asked where do we draw the line and ppl said no line.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...Plan/page4&highlight=higher+education+classes

How is this not "useful"?

What does this have to do with Vocational Education?

That colleges are filled with nonsense and a person might be better off avoiding it.

So there is nothing else at college to learn but what you call nonsense, not a single thing but nonsense as defined by you?

Education, no matter what kind is suppose to broaden our minds. The ideas of education do not compete with one another, there is room for learning all kinds of things. All knowledge should at least be sampled, even things the some people call nonsense. Such ideas, if nothing else, serve as object lessons in recognizing bad ideas and fallacious thinking.

Unfortunately the real world is made of real people with real priorities and real limits to their time and money.

So no one, even people with time and money, should be allowed to study what other's define as nonsense?

Study whatever you want.

But you suggested that "all knowledge should at least be sampled, even things the some people call nonsense".

I'm pointing out why people in the real world might not feel the same way and why they'd have an incentive to discriminate between useful knowledge and nonsense and ignore your horrible advice.

 

[Bronzeage]

One of the neglected aspects of this type of discussion is the mistake of thinking all college educations are equal.

There was a time when colleges and universities served only one purpose and that was to produce clergymen who could read Latin and Greek. Anybody else who wanted an education which would lead to gainful employment became an apprentice to a Master of some technical skill.

Somewhere along the line, noble families no longer had to spend most of their time fighting other noble families on horse back and decided their children should not grow up as ignorant as fence posts. They sent their children to the colleges, along side the future priests. None of them were going to be priest, but it was thought that a "liberal" education would be useful. None of it was intended to be training for a vocation. It was an education fit for someone who did not need to work.

In more enlightened times, the middle and working classes were given better access to a college education, the liberal arts colleges were appealing to a lot of people. A degree in English Literature or Art History are fine things to have, but very few will ever make a living directly from the benefit of their degree.

One of the strange twists in modern US conservative politics is the simultaneous contempt for educated people(scientists and artists, alike) and working class people. Whenever I encounter a climate change denier, I can bet $20 he is also anti-labor union, and not risk my money.

I have spent my working life with one foot in both worlds and have seen it from both sides. Labor and it's costs are a major component in production. An increase in labor costs cuts into profits, so the capitalists among us find it easy to see any demand for higher wages as a form of extortion. The idea that two or more working people could form a corporation with which to market their labor is seen as outright piracy.

The only way to rationalize this kind of lunacy is to devalue labor. This spreads over to all labor, and manual labor is not spared, with no regard to the skill level. In a political atmosphere where labor is not valued, it's no surprise to find vocational training is not valued either.

 

[ronburgundy]

So there is nothing else at college to learn but what you call nonsense, not a single thing but nonsense as defined by you?

Well, I didn't write that. But I'd say that a lot that is taught is nonsense. I'm not against education. I've much in favor of it. Yet, education to "broaden our minds" can be obtained readily elsewhere, without going into debt for a useless degree. Want to learn a foreign language? Curious about the history of this or the history of that? Would like to brush up on your math skills or learn more complex math? Interested in 17th Century French literature? Don't need college for any of that. In the times we live in there is free or inexpensive access to a bounty of information. Piling on debt for a degree showing you're educated in the "unmarked whiteness that incorporates certain previously stigmatized transgender bodies" doesn't make you smart. It makes you dumb.

Why would anyone be interested in 17th Century Literature by random chance? Only after learning enough about it or related things via formal education where others direct you to what is interesting and why are most people interested in learning more about it or learning about similar subjects.

Set novices loose on the internet to learn about a topic and decide for themselves what to read and most of them will come away dumber than before they started, chock full of misinformation. In fact, among the many things one can learn at University is that there are formal experiments showing that this is the case.

It typically takes a combination of generally above average smarts and some level of prior knowledge of a topic, for unstructured unguided self teaching to be effective.
The exception to that is if one is just trying to answer a very narrow specific question with a simple clear factual answer, which is NOT the kind of learning that college courses even in the hardest sciences are or should be about.

In addition, while too many classrooms are poorly run, the context of a well-run classroom provides participation and exposure to discussions shown to increase deeper understanding of complex topics. It isn't simply a matter of hearing others "great" ideas. Even hearing bad ideas about the topic your are trying to learn will generally improve your understanding, if relative experts are there to shape the discussion, highlighting flaws in ideas and helping students construct better ones without merely telling them the best answer. Well designed classroom and homework activities serve a similar function. Tons of research shows that students gain a more long-lasting and nuanced understanding of topics by constructing the answer rather being told the answer. Plus, developing student's skill in how to acquire knowledge and construct an understanding is as much the point of college classrooms as teaching them what is already well known and accepted in various fields.

Finally, there is a motivational component. The important goals satisfied by college are all long-term with the benefits being diffuse, indirect, and spread out across the lifespan. It is far too easy and too likely that the vast majority of young adults (or any age adult) without the incentives class enrollment brings would find reasons not to sustain the kind of focused attention on a topic over and extended period that is required for notable progress in understanding. Reading an occassional article here or there when you get around to it, doesn't cut it. Thus, even among the small % of people with the intellectual skills to learn just as well on their own, few of them actually would do what is needed to make that happen. College makes it far more likely that more people who can learn actually will learn.

All that said, sure, for some people, academic type college where the goal is beyond learning specific skills for a specific trade is a waste of time and money, because they lack the more basic knowledge, skills, and/or motivation needed to take advantage of the college learning contexts I described above. For example, it is one thing to need motivation of not failing a course to get you to do your assignment. But that isn't going to be enough if you don't care enough about getting a failing grade and/or wasting your or others money.

 

[JonA]

The only way to rationalize this kind of lunacy is to devalue labor. This spreads over to all labor, and manual labor is not spared, with no regard to the skill level. In a political atmosphere where labor is not valued, it's no surprise to find vocational training is not valued either.

I hope your evidence for this devaluing isn't the relatively higher pay for people working skilled trades, such as plumbers, electricians, IT, and the like.

Because that would be really bad evidence.

 

[credoconsolans]

I thought vocational schools were cut back because all the vocations they were training students for had been outsourced.

 

[laughing dog]

The only way to rationalize this kind of lunacy is to devalue labor. This spreads over to all labor, and manual labor is not spared, with no regard to the skill level. In a political atmosphere where labor is not valued, it's no surprise to find vocational training is not valued either.

I hope your evidence for this devaluing isn't the relatively higher pay for people working skilled trades, such as plumbers, electricians, IT, and the like.

Because that would be really bad evidence.

No, it wouldn't if the higher pay is the direct result of the reduced supply of those trades people due to the devaluing of their labor in non-monetary forms.

 

[Axulus]

Bring it back? I never knew it went away. The link in the OP seems to only contain ancedotes. Cite?