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Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

The border between lots of things is arbitrary, but they are no less distinct in their extremes. Baldness, for example.

And "alive" is a far cry from "conscious" anyway.

That's my critique. Unless being alive implies something hylozoism is meaningless. Maybe something along the lines of process philosophy is implied? Which I think has (usually) a greater explanatory power than the regular substance theory. So maybe not, everything is alive, but everything is constantly changing.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_philosophy
 
I don't mind hylozoism. The border between alive and dead is arbitrary anyway. So why not do away with the distinction all together? But you do agree that saying that everything is alive is the same thing as saying that everything is dead?

Just because you don't know exactly where the border between two things is doesn't mean that the border somehow doesn't therefore exist. It's like saying that just because you can't say the exact moment when a child becomes an adult, there's no difference between a four year old and a forty year old.

If you have something alive, at some point it becomes something dead. There is a grey area inbetween the two and it's unclear where inside this grey area that the transition between the two states actually occurs. That doesn't mean, however, that you don't have two distinctly different states on either side of the grey area.
 
I really appreciate you digging into this, Dr. Zoidberg. I stumbled on Brunner about 15 years ago, and I still feel like I have a tiger by the tail. I’m so grateful to the Internet community for giving me the opportunity to test out my understanding of Brunner’s ideas. I hope that I can do something to bring attention to what I consider one of the greatest of souls. His followers have made many attempts in this regard. Most recently there is a volume entitled Constantin Brunner im Kontext, which is mainly a collection of papers delivered at a conference in Berlin a couple of years ago.

As far as I know, I am the first and only native English speaker to actively promote his work, much of which is still untranslated from German. I have a website where I have posted a good deal of material, including a blog with some of my own extrapolations from my reading of Brunner. I am responsible for the English Wikipedia article. The International Constantin Brunner Institute, with which I am involved, also has a website.

Brunner fused together a number of thought streams. He is a great, perhaps the greatest system-builder. He has been described as the most German of Jews and the most Jewish of Germans. It is his fusion of German philosophy with Judaism and Spinoza that gives his work such astounding range.

Here is one quotation that might help give some idea of Brunner’s view:

Man is a thing, a thing in motion, and inwardly conscious of his own specific motion. Therein consists the degree of his thinking. With man's death his body dies, i.e. his specific motional state comes to an end and passes into another motional state. Simultaneously his degree of thinking also passes into another degree. All is one interconnection; it is the one self-thinking motion, where thinking is nothing in itself but motion alone is the reality which in consciousness experiences itself. And all our conscious motions, in unitary coherence, merge into those that proceed unconsciously for us in the parts of our body and into those others which our body as a whole undergoes through being moved in larger motional unities—and thus the motion and with it the consciousness of the entire universe is a uniformly coherent transformation. It is difficult to visualize this scientifically abstract truth. Just as we consider our physical existence as an individually self-contained one, although it is but a wave in the ocean that constantly impinges upon other waves, issuing from them and merging into them, just so we have immediate consciousness only as of something discrete, separate within us and in other consciousness-gifted beings, as of something that is pluralistic and substantial. Each consciousness appears as a substance. Against this it will be of some help if one reflects how in our own consciousness certain areas seem to us to be isolated which in truth compose a coherent whole. In the specificate of feeling we think only our feeling, in that of willing only our volitions, in that of knowing only knowledge—and moreover in each case only that which lies in the foreground of our intellective interest without including simultaneously all that knowledge stored away in our memory.

In like manner the whole of our consciousness, i.e. the sum-total of feeling, knowing, willing, makes us aware only of the motion of our own human thingliness, viz. only of that which serves our life maintenance. This consciousness conceives itself to be isolated, and even after the thought of the one thingly motion seems to have taken hold, the naive conception still retains its power. The worst offence against the thought of universal oneness continues to be committed as long as one does not abandon the assumption of discrete, insular, substantial units of consciousness in the midst of the continuity of thingly motion.​

You can read more here in a primer I have prepared.
 
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I really appreciate you digging into this, Dr. Zoidberg. I stumbled on Brunner about 15 years ago, and I still feel like I have a tiger by the tail. I’m so grateful to the Internet community for giving me the opportunity to test out my understanding of Brunner’s ideas. I hope that I can do something to bring attention to what I consider one of the greatest of souls. His followers have made many attempts in this regard. Most recently there is a volume entitled Constantin Brunner im Kontext, which is mainly a collection of papers delivered at a conference in Berlin a couple of years ago.

As far as I know, I am the first and only native English speaker to actively promote his work, much of which is still untranslated from German. I have a website where I have posted a good deal of material, including a blog with some of my own extrapolations from my reading of Brunner. I am responsible for the English Wikipedia article. The International Constantin Brunner Institute, with which I am involved, also has a website.

Brunner fused together a number of thought streams. He is a great, perhaps the greatest system-builder. He has been described as the most German of Jews and the most Jewish of Germans. It is his fusion of German philosophy with Judaism and Spinoza that gives his work such astounding range.

Here is one quotation that might help give some idea of Brunner’s view:

Man is a thing, a thing in motion, and inwardly conscious of his own specific motion. Therein consists the degree of his thinking. With man's death his body dies, i.e. his specific motional state comes to an end and passes into another motional state. Simultaneously his degree of thinking also passes into another degree. All is one interconnection; it is the one self-thinking motion, where thinking is nothing in itself but motion alone is the reality which in consciousness experiences itself. And all our conscious motions, in unitary coherence, merge into those that proceed unconsciously for us in the parts of our body and into those others which our body as a whole undergoes through being moved in larger motional unities—and thus the motion and with it the consciousness of the entire universe is a uniformly coherent transformation. It is difficult to visualize this scientifically abstract truth. Just as we consider our physical existence as an individually self-contained one, although it is but a wave in the ocean that constantly impinges upon other waves, issuing from them and merging into them, just so we have immediate consciousness only as of something discrete, separate within us and in other consciousness-gifted beings, as of something that is pluralistic and substantial. Each consciousness appears as a substance. Against this it will be of some help if one reflects how in our own consciousness certain areas seem to us to be isolated which in truth compose a coherent whole. In the specificate of feeling we think only our feeling, in that of willing only our volitions, in that of knowing only knowledge—and moreover in each case only that which lies in the foreground of our intellective interest without including simultaneously all that knowledge stored away in our memory.

In like manner the whole of our consciousness, i.e. the sum-total of feeling, knowing, willing, makes us aware only of the motion of our own human thingliness, viz. only of that which serves our life maintenance. This consciousness conceives itself to be isolated, and even after the thought of the one thingly motion seems to have taken hold, the naive conception still retains its power. The worst offence against the thought of universal oneness continues to be committed as long as one does not abandon the assumption of discrete, insular, substantial units of consciousness in the midst of the continuity of thingly motion.​

You can read more here in a primer I have prepared.

<edit>. WHERE IS THE EVIDENS? Of course there are none since all this is a dreamt up. You are it sure is not J K Rowling you have read?
 
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Self conciousness is a by product of an evolving brain. The "I Am" part of conciousness evolved in our species as our ancestors struggled to survive in a hostile world.
 
I really appreciate you digging into this, Dr. Zoidberg. I stumbled on Brunner about 15 years ago, and I still feel like I have a tiger by the tail. I’m so grateful to the Internet community for giving me the opportunity to test out my understanding of Brunner’s ideas. I hope that I can do something to bring attention to what I consider one of the greatest of souls. His followers have made many attempts in this regard. Most recently there is a volume entitled Constantin Brunner im Kontext, which is mainly a collection of papers delivered at a conference in Berlin a couple of years ago.

As far as I know, I am the first and only native English speaker to actively promote his work, much of which is still untranslated from German. I have a website where I have posted a good deal of material, including a blog with some of my own extrapolations from my reading of Brunner. I am responsible for the English Wikipedia article. The International Constantin Brunner Institute, with which I am involved, also has a website.

Brunner fused together a number of thought streams. He is a great, perhaps the greatest system-builder. He has been described as the most German of Jews and the most Jewish of Germans. It is his fusion of German philosophy with Judaism and Spinoza that gives his work such astounding range.

Here is one quotation that might help give some idea of Brunner’s view:

Man is a thing, a thing in motion, and inwardly conscious of his own specific motion. Therein consists the degree of his thinking. With man's death his body dies, i.e. his specific motional state comes to an end and passes into another motional state. Simultaneously his degree of thinking also passes into another degree. All is one interconnection; it is the one self-thinking motion, where thinking is nothing in itself but motion alone is the reality which in consciousness experiences itself. And all our conscious motions, in unitary coherence, merge into those that proceed unconsciously for us in the parts of our body and into those others which our body as a whole undergoes through being moved in larger motional unities—and thus the motion and with it the consciousness of the entire universe is a uniformly coherent transformation. It is difficult to visualize this scientifically abstract truth. Just as we consider our physical existence as an individually self-contained one, although it is but a wave in the ocean that constantly impinges upon other waves, issuing from them and merging into them, just so we have immediate consciousness only as of something discrete, separate within us and in other consciousness-gifted beings, as of something that is pluralistic and substantial. Each consciousness appears as a substance. Against this it will be of some help if one reflects how in our own consciousness certain areas seem to us to be isolated which in truth compose a coherent whole. In the specificate of feeling we think only our feeling, in that of willing only our volitions, in that of knowing only knowledge—and moreover in each case only that which lies in the foreground of our intellective interest without including simultaneously all that knowledge stored away in our memory.

In like manner the whole of our consciousness, i.e. the sum-total of feeling, knowing, willing, makes us aware only of the motion of our own human thingliness, viz. only of that which serves our life maintenance. This consciousness conceives itself to be isolated, and even after the thought of the one thingly motion seems to have taken hold, the naive conception still retains its power. The worst offence against the thought of universal oneness continues to be committed as long as one does not abandon the assumption of discrete, insular, substantial units of consciousness in the midst of the continuity of thingly motion.​

You can read more here in a primer I have prepared.

This is delrious gobblywook. Please provide evidens then we can dicuss...
 
Science requires clarity. Clearly defined hypothesis, conditions for accepting or rejecting it, and quantifiable outcomes. Nobody will ever upturn the scientific establishment by proposing to measure "the continuity of thingly motion."
 
The fundamental illusion in scientific empiricism is always that it uses the metaphysical categories of matter, force, as well as those of one, many, universality, and the infinite, etc., and it goes on to draw conclusions, guided by categories of this sort, presupposing and applying the forms of syllogizing in the process. It does all this without knowing that it thereby itself contains a metaphysics and is engaged in it, and that it is using those categories and their connections in a totally uncritical and unconscious manner.--Hegel

~~~​

It is from the more or less obscure (mystical) intuition of the oneness that is the ground and principle of all multiplicity that philosophy takes its source. And not alone philosophy, but natural science as well. All science, in Meyerson's phrase, is the reduction of multiplicities to identities. Divining the One within and beyond the many, we find an intrinsic plausibility in any explanation of the diverse in terms of a single principle.—Aldous Huxley

~~~​

Since Bacon has ever been esteemed as the man who directed knowledge to its true source, to experience, he is, in fact, the special leader and representative of what is in England called Philosophy, and beyond which the English have not yet advanced. For they appear to constitute that people in Europe which, limited to the understanding of actuality, is destined, like the class of shopkeepers and workmen in the State, to live always immersed in matter, and to have actuality but not reason as object.--Hegel
 
Great. We've activated the Quote-o-Tron 9000. Thread derailed.
 
English science, and culture generally, followed the path laid down by Bacon and Boyle. It has produced the “hard-hat” mentality that dominates Anglo-American science, and indeed thereby all science. This has excluded hylozoism from consideration. The result is that biology is made into a hopeless mish-mash of occult forces.
 
English science, and culture generally, followed the path laid down by Bacon and Boyle. It has produced the “hard-hat” mentality that dominates Anglo-American science, and indeed thereby all science. This has excluded hylozoism from consideration. The result is that biology is made into a hopeless mish-mash of occult forces.

And all it's given us in return is walking on the moon, curing numerous diseases and extending lifespans and quality of life significantly, feeding millions of starving people, enabling instantaneous and worldwide communications and producing a near infinite supply of funny cat pictures for us to laugh at. That other stuff has provided vague warm and fuzzy feelings in people from time to time.

So fuck you, science! You suck. :mad:
 
English science, and culture generally, followed the path laid down by Bacon and Boyle. It has produced the “hard-hat” mentality that dominates Anglo-American science, and indeed thereby all science. This has excluded hylozoism from consideration. The result is that biology is made into a hopeless mish-mash of occult forces.

Question. There are two possibilities:

1. Bacon and Boyle's "hard-hat" mentality has crowded out hylozoism from scientific discourse, which is why no scientists care about it.

2. Hylozoism is "a hopeless mish-mash of occult forces" that does not describe reality, which is why no scientists care about it.

How would you figure out which is correct?
 
English science, and culture generally, followed the path laid down by Bacon and Boyle. It has produced the “hard-hat” mentality that dominates Anglo-American science, and indeed thereby all science. This has excluded hylozoism from consideration. The result is that biology is made into a hopeless mish-mash of occult forces.

And all it's given us in return is walking on the moon, curing numerous diseases and extending lifespans and quality of life significantly, feeding millions of starving people, enabling instantaneous and worldwide communications and producing a near infinite supply of funny cat pictures for us to laugh at. That other stuff has provided vague warm and fuzzy feelings in people from time to time.

So fuck you, science! You suck. :mad:

Deforestation, mass extinction, global warming, weapons of mass destruction. Yeah, fuck you, scientists.

- - - Updated - - -

How would you figure out which is correct?

Reason, which, as my quotations of Hegel are intended to show, has been excluded from science.
 
What if all the people you quoted are wrong about the current state of science?

(By the way, they are.)
 
English science, and culture generally, followed the path laid down by Bacon and Boyle. It has produced the “hard-hat” mentality that dominates Anglo-American science, and indeed thereby all science. This has excluded hylozoism from consideration. The result is that biology is made into a hopeless mish-mash of occult forces.

And the evidens? Or are you saying that evidens doesnt matter?
 
What if all the people you quoted are wrong about the current state of science?

(By the way, they are.)

The intellectual poverty of scientists has done nothing but get worse:

The younger generation of physicists, the Feynmans, the Schwingers, etc., may be very bright; they may be more intelligent than their predecessors, than Bohr, Einstein, Schrödinger, Boltzmann, Mach and so on. But they are uncivilized savages, they lack in philosophical depth – and this is the fault of the very same idea of professionalism which you are now defending.--Paul Feyerabend

Science needs a complete reboot.
 
And all it's given us in return is walking on the moon, curing numerous diseases and extending lifespans and quality of life significantly, feeding millions of starving people, enabling instantaneous and worldwide communications and producing a near infinite supply of funny cat pictures for us to laugh at. That other stuff has provided vague warm and fuzzy feelings in people from time to time.

So fuck you, science! You suck. :mad:

Deforestation, mass extinction, global warming, weapons of mass destruction. Yeah, fuck you, scientists.

Well, that is the positive of the other stuff. In addition to not going anything good, it also doesn't do anything bad. It just sits around being pointless. That's fine and all but it's just ... pointless.
 
English science, and culture generally, followed the path laid down by Bacon and Boyle. It has produced the “hard-hat” mentality that dominates Anglo-American science, and indeed thereby all science. This has excluded hylozoism from consideration. The result is that biology is made into a hopeless mish-mash of occult forces.The Anglo-Americans have dominated the world for three centuries.
FTFY.

The easiest way to spot the difference between science and woo is that science gets results.
 
What if all the people you quoted are wrong about the current state of science?

(By the way, they are.)

The intellectual poverty of scientists has done nothing but get worse:

The younger generation of physicists, the Feynmans, the Schwingers, etc., may be very bright; they may be more intelligent than their predecessors, than Bohr, Einstein, Schrödinger, Boltzmann, Mach and so on. But they are uncivilized savages, they lack in philosophical depth – and this is the fault of the very same idea of professionalism which you are now defending.--Paul Feyerabend

Science needs a complete reboot.

This is getting boring.
 
The Anglo-Americans have dominated the world for three centuries.FTFY.

The easiest way to spot the difference between science and woo is that science gets results.

Erm, they've brought us to the brink of global ecological catastrophe. Results, indeed.
 
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