Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

[bilby]

I think your right, and one can see a parallel between these experiences and people who think they have had extraterrestrial experience that has them convinced they were visited.

The OP should be asking why a rational person would ever "invent" a god, not merely believe in one. Why would a brain do that?

To gain power and/or wealth from the credulous

My experiences have led me to the conclusion that the whole idea of gods proceeds from what we today would recognize and categorize as behavior marked by mental illness. So I think that's how gods came to be part of our psychology. Religion and it's use of gods is simply a legacy of those times.

There is nothing insane about being a con-artist. Despicable, sure; but not insane.

 

[angelo]

It was the first con man in history that saw the potential to get unlimited wealth and power by conning those who always seek out a leader among groups of sheeple.

 

[angelo]

Either that, or the sheeple believed a raving schizophrenic's voices in his head as the voices of gods.

 

[fromderinside]

Either that, or the sheeple believed a raving schizophrenic's voices in his head as the voices of gods.

Yeah that's it. Let's listen in:

Og. Oh oh oh ah ho Eah Ah bah (points at moon in afternoon sky) Bugga. Tauk, ep go og no buh. (points at sun moving toward pale moon image) Eyow, Nap guba era, sla-ta, gibba. (picks up stick and shakes it at moon image)

Every body runs away.

Very believable. Every raving schizophrenic I know did something like that.

 

[angelo]

I read a book some time ago titled "The Madness Of Adam and Eve " which put forward the theory that it was mental illness which gave birth to religion and was part of our evolving into the beings we became.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think your right, and one can see a parallel between these experiences and people who think they have had extraterrestrial experience that has them convinced they were visited.

The OP should be asking why a rational person would ever "invent" a god, not merely believe in one. Why would a brain do that?

My experiences have led me to the conclusion that the whole idea of gods proceeds from what we today would recognize and categorize as behavior marked by mental illness. So I think that's how gods came to be part of our psychology. Religion and it's use of gods is simply a legacy of those times.

I don't think that's so hard to understand. Our brains allow us to explore hypothetical scenarios in our heads. The difference between the imaginary and real is actually not that great. Our inability to tell the difference is exploited when we go to the movies. We're often pulled along a story and feel engaged even when we know it's all make-belief. And we've all wondered what happens in places we can't see. I see God as nothing but one of our faulty conclusions.

And why are Gods the way they are. It depends on tradition. In Abrahamic religion God is just a projection of an imaginary father or a perfect father we wished we had. In Pagan religion Gods are embodiments of the forces of nature. I have no problem seeing how these could gain traction. Anybody who has been in the vicinity of a lightning striking and who is already prepped with the Image of Zeus or Thor I'm sure would readily feel the guys presence. After all, we are emotional beings.

To me Gods are no mystery at all.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I read a book some time ago titled "The Madness Of Adam and Eve " which put forward the theory that it was mental illness which gave birth to religion and was part of our evolving into the beings we became.

That's beyond question isn't it? A lot of the religious experiences are pretty fucking out there. And also match common mental problems.

Let's also not forget that there's plenty of evidence that consumption of psychadelic drugs was common and widespread in all societies. They give rise to all manner of weird experiences. But they also have side effects that can lead to lots of mental problems.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The OP should be asking why a rational person would ever "invent" a god, not merely believe in one. Why would a brain do that?

My experiences have led me to the conclusion that the whole idea of gods proceeds from what we today would recognize and categorize as behavior marked by mental illness. So I think that's how gods came to be part of our psychology. Religion and it's use of gods is simply a legacy of those times.

I don't think that's so hard to understand. Our brains allow us to explore hypothetical scenarios in our heads. The difference between the imaginary and real is actually not that great. Our inability to tell the difference is exploited when we go to the movies. We're often pulled along a story and feel engaged even when we know it's all make-belief. And we've all wondered what happens in places we can't see. I see God as nothing but one of our faulty conclusions.

And why are Gods the way they are. It depends on tradition. In Abrahamic religion God is just a projection of an imaginary father or a perfect father we wished we had. In Pagan religion Gods are embodiments of the forces of nature. I have no problem seeing how these could gain traction. Anybody who has been in the vicinity of a lightning striking and who is already prepped with the Image of Zeus or Thor I'm sure would readily feel the guys presence. After all, we are emotional beings.

To me Gods are no mystery at all.

Right.

There was obviously a time in the human past when schizophrenia was more common, whether drug induced or not. There were less humans but there was much more of what we would categorize as a mental disorder among those humans. And for anyone who's ever witnessed the promiscuity and high energy levels and sudden onset of religious behavior that mark schizophrenic and bipolar behavior it isn't much of a leap to understand how these behaviors conferred survival advantages for both the individual and the species.

But even within that general schizophrenic behavior certain behaviors still get selected for and certain behaviors get selected against. Religion, where people sing songs to invisible space beings that they want to go live with and engage in obsessive compulsive behaviors is schizo lite. It's what's left. If your schizophrenia was such that you believed you could fly from the edge of a cliff you were selected against. But obsess about making a trek to your "holy place" or talk to a rock regularly and your behavior is selected for. So we have what we have today and we call it religion. Remember also that if you were a "rational" person in such a society your behavior would appear strange and might even get you killed, which history certainly shows it did.

But rational behavior still had a place in these schizo societies if you could build a better weapon or better war machine. What we have today is a lot more rational behavior, probably because there are more people crowded into less space.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think that's so hard to understand. Our brains allow us to explore hypothetical scenarios in our heads. The difference between the imaginary and real is actually not that great. Our inability to tell the difference is exploited when we go to the movies. We're often pulled along a story and feel engaged even when we know it's all make-belief. And we've all wondered what happens in places we can't see. I see God as nothing but one of our faulty conclusions.

And why are Gods the way they are. It depends on tradition. In Abrahamic religion God is just a projection of an imaginary father or a perfect father we wished we had. In Pagan religion Gods are embodiments of the forces of nature. I have no problem seeing how these could gain traction. Anybody who has been in the vicinity of a lightning striking and who is already prepped with the Image of Zeus or Thor I'm sure would readily feel the guys presence. After all, we are emotional beings.

To me Gods are no mystery at all.

Right.

There was obviously a time in the human past when schizophrenia was more common, whether drug induced or not. There were less humans but there was much more of what we would categorize as a mental disorder among those humans. And for anyone who's ever witnessed the promiscuity and high energy levels and sudden onset of religious behavior that mark schizophrenic and bipolar behavior it isn't much of a leap to understand how these behaviors conferred survival advantages for both the individual and the species.

But even within that general schizophrenic behavior certain behaviors still get selected for and certain behaviors get selected against. Religion, where people sing songs to invisible space beings that they want to go live with and engage in obsessive compulsive behaviors is schizo lite. It's what's left. If your schizophrenia was such that you believed you could fly from the edge of a cliff you were selected against. But obsess about making a trek to your "holy place" or talk to a rock regularly and your behavior is selected for. So we have what we have today and we call it religion. Remember also that if you were a "rational" person in such a society your behavior would appear strange and might even get you killed, which history certainly shows it did.

But rational behavior still had a place in these schizo societies if you could build a better weapon or better war machine. What we have today is a lot more rational behavior, probably because there are more people crowded into less space.

And many cultures revere certain types of mental illness. Sweden has an old tradition of revering retards as being "touched by God". It was believed they had healing powers. Or something like it. There was something magical about being nice to them anyway.

 

[Juma]

And many cultures revere certain types of mental illness. Sweden has an old tradition of revering retards as being "touched by God". It was believed they had healing powers. Or something like it. There was something magical about being nice to them anyway.

Where have you heard of this? 50 years in sweden and never heard of it...

 

[DrZoidberg]

And many cultures revere certain types of mental illness. Sweden has an old tradition of revering retards as being "touched by God". It was believed they had healing powers. Or something like it. There was something magical about being nice to them anyway.

Where have you heard of this? 50 years in sweden and never heard of it...

I don't remember and can't find it again. I was researching Paganism for a book I was writing. I collected massive amounts of data on similar activities. It's not just Sweden. All over Europe they had similar things going on. People with various congenital handicaps were often revered or used in various ways in rituals.

BTW, I was initially researching when Paganism died out in Europe. The answer is that it never did. Which I thought was cool. I didn't know that before.

 

[fromderinside]

Where have you heard of this? 50 years in sweden and never heard of it...

I don't remember and can't find it again. I was researching Paganism for a book I was writing. I collected massive amounts of data on similar activities. It's not just Sweden. All over Europe they had similar things going on. People with various congenital handicaps were often revered or used in various ways in rituals.

BTW, I was initially researching when Paganism died out in Europe. The answer is that it never did. Which I thought was cool. I didn't know that before.

My grandmother is from Sweden and they told it to my mother when she was young and later to me when I was temporarily in their care while my mother was being treated for depression. Sheltered life Juma?

Back to the story. Seems we are saying something like people weren't reasonable until the golden age in Greece. I beg to differ. It was very reasonable for pre-humans to develop tool making technology which leads me to believe reasonable 'people' lived as early as two million years ago. Between then and Greece language was developed. Again a reasonable action. Dolphins seem to act reasonably and they also act as if they know of fate and afterlife. Rituals and burials are examples.

So when saying "reasonable person" are we being humophobic, If so being reasonable really doesn't have anything to do with god belief since god belief predates Greek reason and god belief seems also to transcend humans.

My view, for whatever its worth was posted long ago where I claimed belief in things beyond oneself arose with perception where separation of movement from stationary meant food.

It is genetically within us from that point forward if I read my Crick correctly. See Claustrum

An enjoyable Speakpigeon here. There is nothing about reason that demands spoken language. Committing reasonable acts is more than sufficient.

 

[angelo]

I read a book some time ago titled "The Madness Of Adam and Eve " which put forward the theory that it was mental illness which gave birth to religion and was part of our evolving into the beings we became.

That's beyond question isn't it? A lot of the religious experiences are pretty fucking out there. And also match common mental problems.

Let's also not forget that there's plenty of evidence that consumption of psychadelic drugs was common and widespread in all societies. They give rise to all manner of weird experiences. But they also have side effects that can lead to lots of mental problems.

Doesn't have to be drugs. Vino Veritas could've done the same thing.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That's beyond question isn't it? A lot of the religious experiences are pretty fucking out there. And also match common mental problems.

Let's also not forget that there's plenty of evidence that consumption of psychadelic drugs was common and widespread in all societies. They give rise to all manner of weird experiences. But they also have side effects that can lead to lots of mental problems.

Doesn't have to be drugs. Vino Veritas could've done the same thing.

I don't separate drugs. To me alcohol is just yet another drug.

 

[angelo]

As is sugar, salt, smoking, chocolate and other cravings, sex, in fact life's a drug.

 

[DrZoidberg]

As is sugar, salt, smoking, chocolate and other cravings, sex, in fact life's a drug.

Ha ha. Each to their own. But I draw the line after nicotine. I think drugs are chemicals that directly interfere with how neurotransmitters communicate somehow. Sure, sugar (pure sucrose) elevates dopamine well above what we've evolved to. But it still uses the same mechanism as any other food. And sex... well... that's just silly

The reason we can get high on drugs is because the chemicals are similar in shape to innate receptors that have evolved to push us toward various beneficial behaviours, sex being one of them.

I think your list falls into the category of things-we-can-get-addicted-to.

And there's lots of drugs that aren't addictive at all. Stuff like LSD and DMT.

 

[angelo]

Sex addiction is not a bad thing providing one doesn't harm anyone.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Sex addiction is not a bad thing providing one doesn't harm anyone.

I think you've misunderstood what addiction is. If there's no harm, by definition, it isn't an addiction. Stuff we like doing that doesn't cause any harm is referred to as "habits" or "just stuff we like doing".

For sexuality to count as an addiction it needs to be a compulsion that forces you to act sexually in situations where you'd rather not. An addict has no control over their addictive behaviour. That's what's so scary about it. When the urge comes on there's no punishment or deterrent that can keep an addict from seeking the fix, other than physically separating the addict from that which they're addicted to. Just ask anybody (actually addicted to smoking) who's tried quitting smoking. Those guys go through hell. The physical addiction of nicotine is out of the system in a matter of days. It's actually not particularly strong. The psychological addiction to nicotine is many thousand times stronger.

 

[angelo]

Some Hollywood actors such as Michael Douglas, Charlie Sheen, Warren Beatty are said to have a sex addiction. In my younger days, I would sometimes get painful testicles unless I had sex, or at least an orgasm every couple of days minimum.
Sex is an addiction to some.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Some Hollywood actors such as Michael Douglas, Charlie Sheen, Warren Beatty are said to have a sex addiction. In my younger days, I would sometimes get painful testicles unless I had sex, or at least an orgasm every couple of days minimum.
Sex is an addiction to some.

Until the behaviour causes problems in your life it's still not an addiction. The word implies that the behaviour is destructive in some sense.

I think getting blue balls unless you cum a couple of times a week is normal. I certainly do.