Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

[Underseer]

Simply calling theists stupid or ignorant is too simple. Sure, we're a dumb-ass species. But we're not that stupid. I refuse to believe that belief in God isn't psychologically useful somehow. I'm talking use. Not a crutch. The belief acting as a tool in order to strengthen the believers life somehow. If not, I can't see how this belief could have possible survived.

Is it the community surrounding religious faith?
Is it the rituals and traditions giving a sense of security?
Is it the fear of eye of God in their supposed Godly police-state keeping them focused on what is important?
Are prayers a way to help the believer formulate goals in their lives?
Does the illusion of Godly love give the believer a genuine feeling of love?
Something else?

I'm talking about belief in a false God in purely functional terms. What is the function of theism? No, I'm not talking about it as a tool for those in power. I'm talking about religion in the bottom up sense.

Just to make it clear here. This is not an opening for apologetics. I still think the God hypothesis is stupid. It's just all out ridiculous, retarded and preposterous. I posit theists don't spend much time thinking about the existence of God since it's not important for them. They jump straight to whatever boon they get from the faith itself, without bothering about whether the hypothesis is true or not. We have plenty of evidence for that in this forum. Whenever a theists comes and tries to argue for the existence of God, they without fail fall back on arguments they could have dismissed themselves if they spent a couple of minutes googling ancient Greek philosophers. So they didn't. Ergo, they don't really care.

So what is the benefit from holding this false belief? The actual benefit.

There is actually quite a bit of research that has been done recently on the topic of why we believe in gods.



The above mostly covers neuroscience and evolutionary psychology.

There are other explanations, of course.

For example, Dawkins has pointed out that belief in gods creates a free "police" that monitors people's behavior from within their own heads, so societies with belief in gods might have an advantage over societies without belief in gods, at least back in the days before philosophy and sociology were able to provide concrete reasons why moral behavior is preferred over immoral behavior.

Wait, did I already post this video in this thread? It's 31 pages and I'm too lazy to read the whole thing because I'm a lazy bastard.

 

[Underseer]

Some Hollywood actors such as Michael Douglas, Charlie Sheen, Warren Beatty are said to have a sex addiction. In my younger days, I would sometimes get painful testicles unless I had sex, or at least an orgasm every couple of days minimum.
Sex is an addiction to some.

That's not sex addiction, that's just blue balls.

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Where have you heard of this? 50 years in sweden and never heard of it...

I don't remember and can't find it again. I was researching Paganism for a book I was writing. I collected massive amounts of data on similar activities. It's not just Sweden. All over Europe they had similar things going on. People with various congenital handicaps were often revered or used in various ways in rituals.

BTW, I was initially researching when Paganism died out in Europe. The answer is that it never did. Which I thought was cool. I didn't know that before.

Are you sure you weren't thinking of berserkers rather than "retards"?

 

[lostone]

Paganism did not die in Europe. It was murdered. Brute force. By the usual religious zealots, who destroyed the Greek and Roman religions in similar fashion.

 

[SIB]

depends on what we mean by god. Deity is not reliable, Things like a living universe are possible so I can understand that kind of belief. A biosphere described as alive as opposed to not alive is reasonable even if we don't agree. And the belief in some thing more is more reliable than the reverse belief to me.

So it gets down to what are we talking about for me.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't buy the lack of education bit.

Certainly, those who are less educated are more likely to buy into religion...but there are certainly plenty of intelligent, well-educated people who are religious. My brother is one of them. He is a Professor in Engineering. From our talks, his belief comes down to...it makes him feel good to believe in God.

That's it in a nutshell to me. People believe because it makes them feel good. It is a crutch against an uncaring, harsh reality.

Is it a crutch?

I keep a garden because gardening and orcharding make me feel good. The better question imho is whether a person choses to be reasonable wrt religion. In the case of your brother I would say he chooses to be unreasonable when it comes to religion. It just makes him feel good, there isn't anything illegal about it and so he does it. Is that choosing reason over being irrational or is that choosing to be irrational because its comforting?

I can go out and buy everything I need, don't need a garden or fruit trees. But I toil and grow them nonetheless because it makes me feel good. I believe it is a scientific decision ultimately because in doing so I get to avoid lots of pesticides and other chemicals, stay fit, and get to eat fresh produce. Some people build decks, grill and have a three car garage. I have a garden.

Choosing to believe in god probably doesn't happen consciously. There is certainly a degree of social advantage to being religious, generally speaking, and that entices lots of people. Plus it's very traditional and a common experience. Maybe we can say that about a lot of things.

 

[No Robots]

It's pure mathematics. Once you cancel out all relativities, all you are left with is the Absolute. You can then work back from the Absolute to the relativities.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Paganism did not die in Europe. It was murdered. Brute force. By the usual religious zealots, who destroyed the Greek and Roman religions in similar fashion.

Not in Northern Europe. The kings converted the nobles by force. But the people were left alone to do their thing. And even the nobles were treated with a fairly soft hand. Sweden's main annual religious festival is Midsummer. Still. There's not a trace of Christianity in that. Sure, we don't know what any of the rituals symbolize anymore. But the ritual has survived these thousand years, pretty much intact.

Over time Christianity took a choke hold over society and imposed their will. But it wasn't so much brute force as Stockholm Syndrome. And life was pretty brutal back then, in general. So it's not like the Christians were uniquely horrendous.

Fun fact is that the last pagan shaman of Lithuania died in 19'th century. He took the secrets of pagan mystery cults with him. But they may have survived within families. Written down. And it might still resurface at some point. There's surviving pagan cults in Russia that have roots back thousands of years.

The more I read about Christian conversions the less I buy the brutal conversion story. The Christian beliefs have always spread with soft power. The wars fought in the name of Christ wasn't about spreading religion. It was about gaining territory and wealth. The popes restrictions on Christians fighting each other meant that aggression was directed outwards. But that doesn't mean there was more fighting. Only that targets were non-Christian.

The biggest difference between pre- and post-Christian Europe is because of the plague. 541 bubonic plague showed up. This shaped Christian Europe way more than what Christianity did. Instead of urban centres being magnets for capable ambitious people, they turned into death traps sensible people avoided. Nobles hid away in their castles. Baths closed. Brothels were closed. Not for religious reasons. But to contain the spread of plague.

 

[steve_bank]

The myth of the reasonable person.

 

[southernhybrid]

It always surprised me how many American doctors believe in a god, but then I've never thought of physicians as especially reasonable. I looked up to see how many claim a belief in god. While there have been a few more recent studies with similar results, the most frequently mentioned one was from 2005.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml

• The first study of physician religious beliefs has found that 76 percent of doctors believe in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife. The survey, performed by researchers at the University and published in the July issue of the Journal of General Internal Medicine, found that 90 percent of doctors in the United States attend religious services at least occasionally, compared to 81 percent of all adults. Fifty-five percent of doctors say their religious beliefs influence how they practice medicine.
  These results were not anticipated. Religious belief tends to decrease as education and income levels increase, yet doctors are highly educated and, on average, well compensated. The finding also differs radically from 90 years of studies showing that only a minority of scientists (excluding physicians) believes in God or an afterlife.

I once asked a former doctor of mine is she was an atheist, like me. She looked directly at me and said. "I would never admit that in public". I took that to mean she was an atheist, as she wasn't just a physician, she had a Phd in chemical engineering, and was much smarter than most physicians who I knew. She knew I would never tell anyone her secret. After all, we live in the Bible Belt and it might be a problem for some people to have an atheist doctor.

I also once had an atheist patient who complained to me that her doctor insisted on praying before providing her care. I helped her change doctors to a very kind, Hindu doctor, who I knew would never push any religion on her patients.

Point is that there are plenty of very educated people who maintain a god belief or at least claim to have a god belief. I don't get it, but if having a god belief and/or a religion helps you navigate life, so be it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Point is that there are plenty of very educated people who maintain a god belief or at least claim to have a god belief. I don't get it, but if having a god belief and/or a religion helps you navigate life, so be it.

FWIW I stopped using the "god" word in these conversations. I'll ask them if they believe in ghosts and magic. It's a much more enlightening conversation because it doesn't get into their religious identity. A god IS a ghost and performs magic but the religious identity doesn't really discuss that secular aspect of their behavior.

There were two doctors in the parish where I grew up. Both seemed quite religious but I think it was cultural identity operating, not higher level thinking.

 

[bilby]

It always surprised me how many American doctors believe in a god, but then I've never thought of physicians as especially reasonable. I looked up to see how many claim a belief in god. While there have been a few more recent studies with similar results, the most frequently mentioned one was from 2005.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml

• The first study of physician religious beliefs has found that 76 percent of doctors believe in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife. The survey, performed by researchers at the University and published in the July issue of the Journal of General Internal Medicine, found that 90 percent of doctors in the United States attend religious services at least occasionally, compared to 81 percent of all adults. Fifty-five percent of doctors say their religious beliefs influence how they practice medicine.
  These results were not anticipated. Religious belief tends to decrease as education and income levels increase, yet doctors are highly educated and, on average, well compensated. The finding also differs radically from 90 years of studies showing that only a minority of scientists (excluding physicians) believes in God or an afterlife.

I once asked a former doctor of mine is she was an atheist, like me. She looked directly at me and said. "I would never admit that in public". I took that to mean she was an atheist, as she wasn't just a physician, she had a Phd in chemical engineering, and was much smarter than most physicians who I knew. She knew I would never tell anyone her secret. After all, we live in the Bible Belt and it might be a problem for some people to have an atheist doctor.

I also once had an atheist patient who complained to me that her doctor insisted on praying before providing her care. I helped her change doctors to a very kind, Hindu doctor, who I knew would never push any religion on her patients.

Point is that there are plenty of very educated people who maintain a god belief or at least claim to have a god belief. I don't get it, but if having a god belief and/or a religion helps you navigate life, so be it.

Physicians are a medieval guild that has been reluctantly forced since the late C19th to accept science as a basis for some of their pontifications.

They still talk about 'science based medicine', as though this were a novel and niche idea within the wider body of medical knowledge.

In many ways, advancement in medicine still depends on patronage above demonstrated ability, and many medical doctors of all kinds are people who are in it because it's prestigious, rather than because of any desire to help patients.

Things are slowly improving, but it's very much slower than most people outside the medical profession realise.

 

[Hermit]

The Christian beliefs have always spread with soft power.

Bullshit

The wars fought in the name of Christ wasn't about spreading religion. It was about gaining territory and wealth.

Most of them were about both.

 

[southernhybrid]

It always surprised me how many American doctors believe in a god, but then I've never thought of physicians as especially reasonable. I looked up to see how many claim a belief in god. While there have been a few more recent studies with similar results, the most frequently mentioned one was from 2005.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml

• The first study of physician religious beliefs has found that 76 percent of doctors believe in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife. The survey, performed by researchers at the University and published in the July issue of the Journal of General Internal Medicine, found that 90 percent of doctors in the United States attend religious services at least occasionally, compared to 81 percent of all adults. Fifty-five percent of doctors say their religious beliefs influence how they practice medicine.
  These results were not anticipated. Religious belief tends to decrease as education and income levels increase, yet doctors are highly educated and, on average, well compensated. The finding also differs radically from 90 years of studies showing that only a minority of scientists (excluding physicians) believes in God or an afterlife.

I once asked a former doctor of mine is she was an atheist, like me. She looked directly at me and said. "I would never admit that in public". I took that to mean she was an atheist, as she wasn't just a physician, she had a Phd in chemical engineering, and was much smarter than most physicians who I knew. She knew I would never tell anyone her secret. After all, we live in the Bible Belt and it might be a problem for some people to have an atheist doctor.

I also once had an atheist patient who complained to me that her doctor insisted on praying before providing her care. I helped her change doctors to a very kind, Hindu doctor, who I knew would never push any religion on her patients.

Point is that there are plenty of very educated people who maintain a god belief or at least claim to have a god belief. I don't get it, but if having a god belief and/or a religion helps you navigate life, so be it.

Physicians are a medieval guild that has been reluctantly forced since the late C19th to accept science as a basis for some of their pontifications.

They still talk about 'science based medicine', as though this were a novel and niche idea within the wider body of medical knowledge.

In many ways, advancement in medicine still depends on patronage above demonstrated ability, and many medical doctors of all kinds are people who are in it because it's prestigious, rather than because of any desire to help patients.

Things are slowly improving, but it's very much slower than most people outside the medical profession realise.

These are good points, plus just because a person has spent years receiving degrees, doesn't mean they are critical thinkers. This made me think of my bro in law, who is a dentist. He took all those advanced science courses, yet I don't think he remembers anything he supposedly learned. He's not particularly religious, but still believes in a god and probably still identifies as Catholic. All this training has allowed him to make a huge salary, and to be honest, that's probably why he chose his field. I really don't think that people like him give much thought to what they believe when it comes to the supernatural.

 

[Jarhyn]

The reasonable person who believes in god often lacks SOME tools in their toolbox, and I'm not sure they all would have the materials to forge such tools for themselves.

The issue is that the idea of god is a useful philosophical object.

The problem is that God is a philosophical and mathematical concept that allows us to think through certain kinds of very hard problems.

It clearly has use in that context.

The problem here is that the usefulness of considering a proposition (so as to do math tricks like proving Fermat's Last Theorem, with respect to inaccessible cardinals) does not make such things immediately real, it just says that we can still reasonably understand and discuss constraints upon such things IF they were somehow real, and the implications those constraints carry back down given the fact that they MAY be real, but we have no way of accessing that fact to prove it any which way.

As such, the usefulness of thinking about God, even without any evidence that God exists tends to confuse people into thinking that it must.

And then because we can't disprove the proposition, they assume it is true.

Never mind that we can't prove it even though that was the whole point originally.

Thus God, while a a useful philosophical crow-bar for prying up logic about our cosmology, ends up receiving belief despite not needing to exist at all.

 

[steve_bank]

In a violent, chaotic, and uncertain reality would a belief in a god be a reasonable decision? For some I think so.

As to doctors believing in god, that can mean many things. It dos not necessarily man the biblical o Greek kind of a god.

I have listened to interviews with doctors who deal with areas like childhood cancer. It can be emotionally brutal.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

In a violent, chaotic, and uncertain reality would a belief in a god be a reasonable decision? For some I think so.

As to doctors believing in god, that can mean many things. It dos not necessarily man the biblical o Greek kind of a god.

I have listened to interviews with doctors who deal with areas like childhood cancer. It can be emotionally brutal.

I can see a person coming to the realization that there is no god and then because of the vissicitudes of life, perceiving how sometimes it can be brutally real, and then choosing to live in denial about that fact. Such belief is an escape, nothing short of relief, more hope than actual belief.

Is that reasonable? Sure, if that is the level of examination and even scientific literacy. Just because someone is a doctor does not mean that they are scientifically curious or have examined their beliefs about ghosts and magic. Denial takes care of everything. It can be thought of as a reaction to shock.

 

[steve_bank]

The modern 'reilgious' escape is 24/7 movies, TV, music, video games, pot, junk food, and drugs.

The realtve merits of pop culture escapes and religion can be debated.

A few weeks ago there was a concert event at Seahawks stadium. I could seeand hear it from thour roof deck. A light show coupled with a mystical trippy thened music and people singing along. A religious experience.

I saw the Gretatful Dead in 71 in an open air concert. The Dead Heads were a drug cult. Back in the 70s I'd put on headphones, take pot or acid, and 'trip out'. The ultimate escape. I grew out of it realizing it was an empty dead end.

Try telling a person emersed in pop music that it is an escape. As I have said before religion is one manifestaion of a human characteristic.

 

[Elixir]

I saw the Gretatful Dead in 71 in an open air concert.

I saw them tens of times in GG Park, at the (old) Fillmore, the Avalon 1967-1969.

The Dead Heads were a drug cult.

Also into the psychedelic arts, through the guy who later asst produced "The Wheel", I knew the guy responsible for the tie-dyed backdrops... got to watch the whole process. Not so much about the drugs as about a commonality or community, fleeting though it was. But it morphed into something else, kinda, as you say, like a religion or cult.

Back in the 70s I'd put on headphones, take pot or acid, and 'trip out'. The ultimate escape. I grew out of it realizing it was an empty dead end.

I grew out of it by around 1971, but really took it as a shortcut in realizing the potential of self and the detriment of ego.
YMMV, but I'd have had it no other way.

 

[steve_bank]

A blast from the past.

I used to go to the Fillmore East.

When I went for a security clearance in the 80s I checked yes for prior drug use. When I was interview by an agent he said when someone with my age and demographic checked no they assumed they were lying.

A lot of people I woked with passed through it.

 

[southernhybrid]

In a violent, chaotic, and uncertain reality would a belief in a god be a reasonable decision? For some I think so.

As to doctors believing in god, that can mean many things. It dos not necessarily man the biblical o Greek kind of a god.

I have listened to interviews with doctors who deal with areas like childhood cancer. It can be emotionally brutal.

You reminded me of an experience I had with an arrogant doctor about 5 or 6 years ago. We were at a Xmas season party at my bro in law's home while he was still married. I was talking to a physician friend of his and mentioned I had just left an atheist meetup. The guy went into a rage, asking me why atheists had to get together. I told him we got together because we are humans and sometimes we enjoy the company of people who have similar beliefs as us, just like Christians enjoy being around each other. He got nasty and I walked away, telling him that I wasn't interested in further conversation with him.

A few minutes later his wife came to me and said that I need to understand that her husband was a pathologist and it's hard for him to be around death. I told her that I was a nurse who had been caring for older people for many years, often watching them deteriorate and die. She didn't know what to say after that. So, sure, religion might be needed for some people who work with the sick and the dying, but I've known quite a few atheist nurses over the years, and somehow we are able to care for the sick and the dying without any beliefs in the supernatural.