Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

[TomC]

Some people post quotes like Catholics sprinkle 'holy water'.

Sarcasm too.
Tom

 

[steve_bank]

Some people post quotes like Catholics sprinkle 'holy water'.

Sarcasm too.
Tom

"I am justly killed with my own treachery"

 

[No Robots]

Just answering the question in the OP.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Just answering the question in the OP.

In 1835 lots of people believed in "man-bats," humanoid creatures with bat like wings that inhabited the moon. The reason this fake news was so believable is because it was no different than any other religious claims of the times. It was all a hoax, of course, but it was making people a lot of money who peddled and advertised the story.

So I suppose that "reasonable" and "religious" are relative to scientific awareness, literacy and cultural pressures when all is said and done. Today it takes a great amount of scientific illiteracy to believe in magic, invisible, religious creatures with super powers, no different than it took to believe in "man-bats" in 1835..

 

[No Robots]

DeCasseres:

Now science, having licked theology and pseudo-metaphysics almost to a frazzle, is attempting in its turn to Fascize the human mind. Professional, professorial and official science is the new Moloch. Reason, experience, hard-boiled facts are the new Trinity. Everything in the universe, including ourselves of course, is to be filed, carded, indexed, labelled and "explained.” There is a neat pigeonhole of a theory for everything. When science changes its mind, when it reverses itself, it merely re-letters the pigeonholes and juggles the contents. And it plays at this game as though the very existence of God, time, space and humanity was dependent on these juvenile pastimes! To question the divinity of science is now the new blasphemy.

 

[TomC]

Some people post quotes like Catholics sprinkle 'holy water'.

Sarcasm too.
Tom

"I am justly killed with my own treachery"

Here's the reason I responded.

Catholics created Christianity. Christianity is a blend of Judaism and Greco-Roman paganism. It's now the biggest group of humans there's ever been. Short of females and males, there is not and has never been a bigger group.

Catholics created it. Hell bound folks like protestants like to pretend that they're the real Christians, but they're not. People who dismiss Jesus's own Church (He said so in the Bible) have no say in who is Saved and who is not.

Trust me on this. I know what Jesus said.
Tom

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Trust me on this. I know what Jesus said.

I get the sarcasm. It would be my guess that religionists don't appreciate a basic fact when it comes to their particular set of beliefs, the Jesus page being just one out or thousands or millions or billions of pages. That fact is that those beliefs are all just variations of a single human behavior, which is the practice of woo. The book of woo covers a lot of ground, much of which is quite enjoyable. Religions just officialize certain variations under the chapter "spookology."

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Some people post quotes like Catholics sprinkle 'holy water'.

And some Catholics quote Aquinas again, and again and again.

 

[SIB]

I thinkI posted it before ... for me ... it comes down to comparing beliefs to observation. The belief that something more is going on far out weighs the belief in the reverse. Sure, its not a deity. If we need to stay focused on forward thinking planning thingy ... that's more anti religious than seeking the truth. Politics/social reform isn't about discovery, its about inserting a belief to aid one in getting what they want. They tend to trip over logic more than seeking it. All to often the group doesn't much care about anything else but what they deserve.

I think I saw another forum call them fundy think types. Weather atheist or theist they tend to be dangerous to liberty and the pursuit of happiness for us all.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Maybe some people just need to have a master. Having a god is having a master and I become a happy slave that obeys my master. It gives my life meaning and purpose and clarity. and I am unable to function otherwise. I can forget about making decisions or being responsible for my actions or having any kind of vision as to what kind of world I desire. I leave that all in the hands of my master. I just have to be obedient and do what pleases my master and all is good. I'm unburdened of life's demands. I'm no different than an infant or a toddler, my master is in control.

 

[TomC]

Maybe some people just need to have a master. Having a god is having a master and I become a happy slave that obeys my master. It gives my life meaning and purpose and clarity. and I am unable to function otherwise. I can forget about making decisions or being responsible for my actions or having any kind of vision as to what kind of world I desire. I leave that all in the hands of my master. I just have to be obedient and do what pleases my master and all is good. I'm unburdened of life's demands. I'm no different than an infant or a toddler, my master is in control.

I suppose that happens sometimes. But here in Jesustan I almost always see just the opposite. God is a yes man. He's created in the image of the believers. One can believe or do almost anything, and find a Bible verse proving God agrees with you. Then expect the people around you to recognize your authority to speak for God.
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

Maybe some people just need to have a master. Having a god is having a master and I become a happy slave that obeys my master. It gives my life meaning and purpose and clarity. and I am unable to function otherwise. I can forget about making decisions or being responsible for my actions or having any kind of vision as to what kind of world I desire. I leave that all in the hands of my master. I just have to be obedient and do what pleases my master and all is good. I'm unburdened of life's demands. I'm no different than an infant or a toddler, my master is in control.

Well… now that you put it that way…

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Simply calling theists stupid or ignorant is too simple. Sure, we're a dumb-ass species. But we're not that stupid. I refuse to believe that belief in God isn't psychologically useful somehow. I'm talking use. Not a crutch. The belief acting as a tool in order to strengthen the believers life somehow. If not, I can't see how this belief could have possible survived.

Calling theists stupid is like calling a lonely man gullible for believing a pretty women on the internet is in love with him. Theists like lonely men are desperate for hope, and when people are desperate, they act in ways they don't normally act.

Is it the community surrounding religious faith?
Is it the rituals and traditions giving a sense of security?
Is it the fear of eye of God in their supposed Godly police-state keeping them focused on what is important?
Are prayers a way to help the believer formulate goals in their lives?
Does the illusion of Godly love give the believer a genuine feeling of love?

Often, often, often, I suppose, and often. There are reasons many people believe in Gods. I never disputed that fact.

Something else?

If people, men in particular, can use religion to manipulate people, then there are great potential rewards for those men. The rewards include money, political power, and exclusive access to women for sex. That's why many of the Biblical patriarchs were polygamists who so virulently forbade adultery. They wanted to sexually monopolize as many women as they could. And what better way to do it than to posit an "alpha-male God in the sky" who commanded all other men to stay away from those women or suffer terrible punishment?

I'm talking about religion in the bottom up sense.

In that case the sexually monopolized women were consoled by believing that their sexual servitude to their husbands who often had other wives was the will of an all-powerful God.

So what is the benefit from holding this false belief? The actual benefit.

If truth is too objectionable, then ignorance seems blissful by comparison. Belief in Gods can be a way to endure hardship for those who think they cannot endure that hardship any other way.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Often, often, often, I suppose, and often. There are reasons many people believe in Gods. I never disputed that fact.

I think it's more like TomC just said, people believe in themselves and then make their gods to be just like them. You don't find too many believers telling you their god is full of shit or is wrong. Sure, he gets to be awfully damn mysterious but that's about it.

 

[TomC]

You don't find too many believers telling you their god is full of shit or is wrong.

They don't say it. They just ignore the teachings they prefer not to notice.

One of the ironic bits of the world I live in is this.

Upscale Christians wake up Sunday morning. They put on their best wool power suits. They get in their late model luxury car. They drive to church.

There at church, they worship the author of the words:
"Store not treasure that moth and rust will devour. Rather, store up treasure in Heaven."

They manage to believe both that God Himself came down from Heaven and said that, and that they are His Followers.

I kinda want to discuss the Parable of "Lazarus and the rich man", but I don't. Or the Parable of "The Sower", but I don't. Jesus doesn't matter to most of the Christians around here. They've got their own God.
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Often, often, often, I suppose, and often. There are reasons many people believe in Gods. I never disputed that fact.

I think it's more like TomC just said, people believe in themselves and then make their gods to be just like them.

I used to know a Christian woman who was racist and said she disapproved of black-white romances. She said that God disapproved of them too. I wonder whose disapproval came first.

You don't find too many believers telling you their god is full of shit or is wrong.

The Vikings saw their God Loki "The Trickster" that way. The Viking Gods were perhaps more human than most Gods.

Sure, he gets to be awfully damn mysterious but that's about it.

If I made up a God who didn't fulfill people's expectations, and those people asked why, then calling it a mystery might help.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

Why? Because all the family members, neighbors and people that person respects believe in god or gods.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[DrZoidberg]

Simply calling theists stupid or ignorant is too simple. Sure, we're a dumb-ass species. But we're not that stupid. I refuse to believe that belief in God isn't psychologically useful somehow. I'm talking use. Not a crutch. The belief acting as a tool in order to strengthen the believers life somehow. If not, I can't see how this belief could have possible survived.

Calling theists stupid is like calling a lonely man gullible for believing a pretty women on the internet is in love with him. Theists like lonely men are desperate for hope, and when people are desperate, they act in ways they don't normally act.

Thanks for providing an excellent example of atheistic smug arrogance. I don't agree that being theistic is a sign of weakness. The most strident atheists I have known (like my younger self) are also quite emotionally shut off and struggle with being emotionally vulnerable. Something theists tend to be quite good at. So I don't buy it at all.

I think religions tend to be quite good at helping us develop emotionally. The problem is of course that any powerful tool can be a powerful tool for evil as well as good. But just turning our back on the tools developed over mlllenea to help us grow emotionally is just dumb IMHO.

This was the main argument of Alain de Bottons book "Religion for atheists". A book that changed my life for ever. It made me a lot more compassionate towards theists and made me annoyed with arrogant (in their own heads) superior atheists. Atheists who think that the only reason people are theists is because of personality flaws and weaknesses are delusional.

Or as my militantly atheistic yoga teacher friend put it "Yes, I believe in all the bullshit New Age mumbo jumbo while doing yoga, because it helps me get into the right frame of mind. After the session I scrub my brain of all the nonsense"

He demonstrated it on me. We did an experiment where we measured before and after and my range was significantly greater when I allowed myself to believe during the session. What neurologists call "the mind body connection".

Something else?

If people, men in particular, can use religion to manipulate people, then there are great potential rewards for those men. The rewards include money, political power, and exclusive access to women for sex. That's why many of the Biblical patriarchs were polygamists who so virulently forbade adultery. They wanted to sexually monopolize as many women as they could. And what better way to do it than to posit an "alpha-male God in the sky" who commanded all other men to stay away from those women or suffer terrible punishment?

I'm talking about religion in the bottom up sense.

In that case the sexually monopolized women were consoled by believing that their sexual servitude to their husbands who often had other wives was the will of an all-powerful God.

So the meaning of life is to put your penis in as many women as possible? Is that what you are saying? That might be true for a teenager.

So what is the benefit from holding this false belief? The actual benefit.

If truth is too objectionable, then ignorance seems blissful by comparison. Belief in Gods can be a way to endure hardship for those who think they cannot endure that hardship any other way.

Again, more smug atheistic arrogance. I don't buy it at all.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

So the meaning of life is to put your penis in as many women as possible? Is that what you are saying? That might be true for a teenager.

That's likely more true for a teenage brain, a brain which is markedly different from a mature brain. Maybe teenage brains are in fact less reasonable brains than adult brains, at least on average.

And how do we test our concept of "reasonableness" between two such groups of brains? Reasonableness may in fact be a measure of perceived personal safety. Or maybe it's a measure of scientific literacy. I would choose the latter.

But maybe it's just a measure of empathy or the ability to delay gratification with a good smattering of scientific literacy. Could get interesting.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Simply calling theists stupid or ignorant is too simple. Sure, we're a dumb-ass species. But we're not that stupid. I refuse to believe that belief in God isn't psychologically useful somehow. I'm talking use. Not a crutch. The belief acting as a tool in order to strengthen the believers life somehow. If not, I can't see how this belief could have possible survived.

Calling theists stupid is like calling a lonely man gullible for believing a pretty women on the internet is in love with him. Theists like lonely men are desperate for hope, and when people are desperate, they act in ways they don't normally act.

Thanks for providing an excellent example of atheistic smug arrogance.

That was not my intention. I was actually defending theists pointing out that they're not generally stupid but are looking for hope. My defense of theists was evidently not good enough!

I don't agree that being theistic is a sign of weakness.

But we all have weaknesses and seek strength to overcome obstacles. I have known many people who have told me they need their faith in God to get by. I'm just reporting that fact. If you find that fact objectionable, then you should take it up with the people who avow that they need faith in God.

The most strident atheists I have known (like my younger self) are also quite emotionally shut off and struggle with being emotionally vulnerable. Something theists tend to be quite good at. So I don't buy it at all.

Yes, many atheists are troubled emotionally. But that fact isn't very relevant to theists seeking strength in whatever God they believe in.

I think religions tend to be quite good at helping us develop emotionally.

How so?

The problem is of course that any powerful tool can be a powerful tool for evil as well as good. But just turning our back on the tools developed over mlllenea to help us grow emotionally is just dumb IMHO.

I think the following analogy is just as apt as your analogy: Religion is like a deadly weapon which can be used as a powerful tool to do good if a person chooses to do good with it. So we should recognize that some theists have managed to use religion for good.

This was the main argument of Alain de Bottons book "Religion for atheists". A book that changed my life for ever. It made me a lot more compassionate towards theists and made me annoyed with arrogant (in their own heads) superior atheists. Atheists who think that the only reason people are theists is because of personality flaws and weaknesses are delusional.

In the course of objecting to a stereotype of theists you club atheists with a stereotype of your own. How is that an improvement? It appears that your book gave you a very negative outlook on atheists many of whom are not arrogant or cruel.

Or as my militantly atheistic yoga teacher friend put it "Yes, I believe in all the bullshit New Age mumbo jumbo while doing yoga, because it helps me get into the right frame of mind. After the session I scrub my brain of all the nonsense"

So he doesn't like religion. Is he obligated to like it?

Something else?

If people, men in particular, can use religion to manipulate people, then there are great potential rewards for those men. The rewards include money, political power, and exclusive access to women for sex. That's why many of the Biblical patriarchs were polygamists who so virulently forbade adultery. They wanted to sexually monopolize as many women as they could. And what better way to do it than to posit an "alpha-male God in the sky" who commanded all other men to stay away from those women or suffer terrible punishment?

I'm talking about religion in the bottom up sense.

In that case the sexually monopolized women were consoled by believing that their sexual servitude to their husbands who often had other wives was the will of an all-powerful God.

So the meaning of life is to put your penis in as many women as possible? Is that what you are saying?

Uh--no. I just pointed out that religion often facilitates men's efforts to sexually monopolize women. So you're barking up the wrong tree. If you object to that practice, then take it up with the polygamists in the Bible who kept "herds" of women for sex and childbearing.

That might be true for a teenager.

It was evidently true for Yahweh. According to the Bible, God laid down tough laws to protect powerful men's privilege to put their "penis in as many women as possible." We are told that any man or woman who violated that privilege was to be executed. So God was very concerned about what penis went into what vagina. He is like one of those teenagers you mention.

So what is the benefit from holding this false belief? The actual benefit.

If truth is too objectionable, then ignorance seems blissful by comparison. Belief in Gods can be a way to endure hardship for those who think they cannot endure that hardship any other way.

Again, more smug atheistic arrogance. I don't buy it at all.

Again, take it up with the many theists who say they need God to endure hardship. I'm just reporting the facts.

It looks like you painted yourself into a corner criticizing theism when attempting to attack atheism.