Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

“I believe in God, I just spell it n-a-t-u-r-e.” Frank Lloyd Wright. There are rationale ways to believe in a universal creator. In truth, I do think we all worship the same god, we just have different spellings and rituals. Who cares who’s right, and who can possibly know?

My ritual is to study the laws and history of the creator, and to explore that creation as much as I can. I don’t think that’s irrational in the slightest.

Maybe not, but it is a massive blasphemous insult to all the religions that believe in gods that are above and separate from nature, and it would have gotten Mr Lloyd Wright burned as a heretic for most of history.

It's just passive aggressive atheism - what you say when you think believers in a real God are idiots, but don't want to directly say so.

No. It isn't that. It's rather that they are seeing god as only themselves. They've made what they think is a god into a god, and only that. If we're going to talk about god this way then god has to be everything, not any or only one thing.

That said, I think just using the word "god" creates a problem in that it places limits and starts to impose rules.

 

[lostone]

Nonetheless, the belief in nature or the laws of nature as God seems to me to be rational and do little damage to the human race, unlike organized religion, which has done, and continues to do, a lot of ongoing harm.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We're constantly overwhelmed (to a lesser or greater extent) by the crushing realities of life and impending doom of everything we hold dear. This is what Nietzsche was talking about when he said "when you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back".

And what was the state of scientific knowledge when he said that? I think we can understand and forgive his fear of the "abyss" based on his scientific ignorance relative to ours.

I highly doubt that. Average life expectancy in Nietzsches time was 45. Today it's about 80. But the eternity of death is the same. Mortality rate is still 100% We're still fighting wars over complete bullshit reasons and you still wonder what had happened if you'd only had the courage to ask that pretty girl out on a date.

If the abyss has stopped staring back nobody would take Prozac, nobody would use Valium and sleeping pills wouldn't be a thing.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

We're constantly overwhelmed (to a lesser or greater extent) by the crushing realities of life and impending doom of everything we hold dear. This is what Nietzsche was talking about when he said "when you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back".

And what was the state of scientific knowledge when he said that? I think we can understand and forgive his fear of the "abyss" based on his scientific ignorance relative to ours.

I highly doubt that. Average life expectancy in Nietzsches time was 45. Today it's about 80. But the eternity of death is the same. Mortality rate is still 100% We're still fighting wars over complete bullshit reasons and you still wonder what had happened if you'd only had the courage to ask that pretty girl out on a date.

If the abyss has stopped staring back nobody would take Prozac, nobody would use Valium and sleeping pills wouldn't be a thing.

Some folks do have legitimate issues so you can drop the hyperbole.

Scientific illiteracy in a scientific age is still real for many people, hence their attachment to woo. An educated, scientifically curious person is always asking questions. Eventually those persons realize that "death" among other things is unconsciousness. They understand that we've all been dead before so it's not a big deal. The abyss is just a bogeyman born of ignorance and fear, at least for those intellectually able to figure it out.

I agree that emotion is the primary human currency. Again, that is understandable given the evolutionary evidence and our knowledge of how the brain works, particularly the PFC. But that isn't going to do much for a person who lacks the skill set to make the leap from superstition to awareness. Nietzsche lived in a time that relative to ours was quite backward in its scientific awareness. You can't blame him for his demons. Nietzsche is in all of us and we are all in him. Had he the scientific knowledge we have today maybe the "eternity of death" you reference would have been a laughable joke to him. I certainly think it would have been.

 

[SLD]

“I believe in God, I just spell it n-a-t-u-r-e.” Frank Lloyd Wright. There are rationale ways to believe in a universal creator. In truth, I do think we all worship the same god, we just have different spellings and rituals. Who cares who’s right, and who can possibly know?

My ritual is to study the laws and history of the creator, and to explore that creation as much as I can. I don’t think that’s irrational in the slightest.

Maybe not, but it is a massive blasphemous insult to all the religions that believe in gods that are above and separate from nature, and it would have gotten Mr Lloyd Wright burned as a heretic for most of history.

It's just passive aggressive atheism - what you say when you think believers in a real God are idiots, but don't want to directly say so.

Oh, I too, have no use for the organized religions of the world, but I think that’s a separate issue from the OP. It’s not the belief, but what they do with their belief. I have several fundamentalist friends. They don’t so much as try and convert me. They said, my beliefs aren’t biblical. But I cited Jesus saying that the only two laws that are important are to love god and love your neighbor as yourself. Everything else is just detail. Others just don’t care. It’s been decades since some fundy has tried to save me. And I live in the heart of Jesus country.

 

[TomC]

Oh, I too, have no use for the organized religions of the world, but I think that’s a separate issue from the OP. It’s not the belief, but what they do with their belief. I have several fundamentalist friends. They don’t so much as try and convert me. They said, my beliefs aren’t biblical. But I cited Jesus saying that the only two laws that are important are to love god and love your neighbor as yourself. Everything else is just detail. Others just don’t care. It’s been decades since some fundy has tried to save me. And I live in the heart of Jesus country.

I can totally relate, here in Jesustan Indiana.
I think that nontheist people, especially on the internet, get a skewed image of how many irritatingly proselytizing Christians are out there. It's simply because those people are noisy and get noticed. The quiet folks who keep their religious beliefs to themselves don't.
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

We're constantly overwhelmed (to a lesser or greater extent) by the crushing realities of life and impending doom of everything we hold dear. This is what Nietzsche was talking about when he said "when you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back".

And what was the state of scientific knowledge when he said that? I think we can understand and forgive his fear of the "abyss" based on his scientific ignorance relative to ours.

I highly doubt that. Average life expectancy in Nietzsches time was 45. Today it's about 80. But the eternity of death is the same. Mortality rate is still 100% We're still fighting wars over complete bullshit reasons and you still wonder what had happened if you'd only had the courage to ask that pretty girl out on a date.

If the abyss has stopped staring back nobody would take Prozac, nobody would use Valium and sleeping pills wouldn't be a thing.

Some folks do have legitimate issues so you can drop the hyperbole.

Scientific illiteracy in a scientific age is still real for many people, hence their attachment to woo. An educated, scientifically curious person is always asking questions. Eventually those persons realize that "death" among other things is unconsciousness. They understand that we've all been dead before so it's not a big deal. The abyss is just a bogeyman born of ignorance and fear, at least for those intellectually able to figure it out.

I agree that emotion is the primary human currency. Again, that is understandable given the evolutionary evidence and our knowledge of how the brain works, particularly the PFC. But that isn't going to do much for a person who lacks the skill set to make the leap from superstition to awareness. Nietzsche lived in a time that relative to ours was quite backward in its scientific awareness. You can't blame him for his demons. Nietzsche is in all of us and we are all in him. Had he the scientific knowledge we have today maybe the "eternity of death" you reference would have been a laughable joke to him. I certainly think it would have been.

Why do you get out of bed in the morning? What's the point of staying alive when all you are doing is postponing the inevitable? What does it all mean?

Pretty basic questions nobody yet has been able to answer.

I think you are completely wrong about religion being bad science. I think religion is something else entirely. The point of religion isn't to give us answers. It's to make the lack of answers less painful. You don't need to be a genius to see through the myths of religion. They're paper thin. It's almost like they're not even trying to make them believable.

To believe religious tenets is to agree to share a narrative in order to feel like part of the same tribe. It's like rooting for a sports team. In the big picture it doesn't matter who wins the tournament. Its about sharing in the excitement. Religion is exactly the same.

 

[bilby]

Why do you get out of bed in the morning?

The alarm goes off

What's the point of staying alive when all you are doing is postponing the inevitable?

Why does there need to be a point?

What does it all mean?

It doesn't mean anything. it just is. How could it possibly mean something?

Your questions boil down to "Why isn't being selfish and egotistical the most important thing in your life?" and "If you aren't there taking part in something, it isn't important, is it?"

I think that our being lumbered with the daft idea that these questions are both deep and important is crazy. My life is important to me. It's perfectly fine for it to be utterly trivial to almost everyone else, and completely unavoidable that it's utterly trivial to the universe as a whole.

To seek a wider meaning for my (or anyone's) life is futile and self destructive.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Why do you get out of bed in the morning? What's the point of staying alive when all you are doing is postponing the inevitable? What does it all mean?

Pretty basic questions nobody yet has been able to answer.

I think you are completely wrong about religion being bad science. I think religion is something else entirely. The point of religion isn't to give us answers. It's to make the lack of answers less painful. You don't need to be a genius to see through the myths of religion. They're paper thin. It's almost like they're not even trying to make them believable.

To believe religious tenets is to agree to share a narrative in order to feel like part of the same tribe. It's like rooting for a sports team. In the big picture it doesn't matter who wins the tournament. Its about sharing in the excitement. Religion is exactly the same.

For me it means I am happy and content and do not fear "death." That's good enough for me. I'm glad to be able to get out of bed in the morning and pursue more happiness and more contentment. I also actually care about things as do billions other of my species so work toward being productive along those lines.

Religion is bad science, that is a fact. It does provide answers for people who don't know any better or are affected by issues of anxiety. Some people obviously practice religion for ritualistic/community satisfaction. Do you really think that if we taught religion to middle schoolers and let them discuss whether all those thousands of gods and demons and spirits and bogeymen were real religion would persist into adulthood? There are plenty of productive and non-superstitious ways to commune with your fellows.

I must be different from religious people in that practicing your standard religion certainly doesn't excite me. I'd compare it to going back through Kindergarten on a regular basis. Kindergarten served a necessary purpose and doesn't anymore for me or for other adults. How is religion any different? Because it's "sacred?" According to who, the folks who own the Appalachian Bible College?

As I observe religious behavior, to include discussions of same, I see religion as hobby. Folks really don't act like these spirits and creatures are real. If they truly were convinced and believed they would be asking themselves why they are getting out of bed everyday when they possess this superpower. Fact is they don't have any superpowers and aren't in contact with any superpowers. They realize that, and that's why they keep getting out of bed.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why do you get out of bed in the morning? What's the point of staying alive when all you are doing is postponing the inevitable? What does it all mean?

Pretty basic questions nobody yet has been able to answer.

I think you are completely wrong about religion being bad science. I think religion is something else entirely. The point of religion isn't to give us answers. It's to make the lack of answers less painful. You don't need to be a genius to see through the myths of religion. They're paper thin. It's almost like they're not even trying to make them believable.

To believe religious tenets is to agree to share a narrative in order to feel like part of the same tribe. It's like rooting for a sports team. In the big picture it doesn't matter who wins the tournament. Its about sharing in the excitement. Religion is exactly the same.

For me it means I am happy and content and do not fear "death." That's good enough for me. I'm glad to be able to get out of bed in the morning and pursue more happiness and more contentment. I also actually care about things as do billions other of my species so work toward being productive along those lines.

Good for you. Perhaps this attitude explains why you're not religious? I have a similar outlook on life. I am also not religious. What sets us apart is that you're using yourself as the gold standard of a human

Religion is bad science, that is a fact. It does provide answers for people who don't know any better or are affected by issues of anxiety.

Well, that's amazingly smug and arrogant. I hope are proud of yourself. Then at least someone is

Some people obviously practice religion for ritualistic/community satisfaction. Do you really think that if we taught religion to middle schoolers and let them discuss whether all those thousands of gods and demons and spirits and bogeymen were real religion would persist into adulthood? There are plenty of productive and non-superstitious ways to commune with your fellows.

Yes, there are. Yet people tend to drift toward religion. I don't think its because they're stupid

I must be different from religious people in that practicing your standard religion certainly doesn't excite me.

Yes, that us exactly why you are not religious. A religion has to inspire you. If it doesn't then it's not for you

I'd compare it to going back through Kindergarten on a regular basis. Kindergarten served a necessary purpose and doesn't anymore for me or for other adults. How is religion any different? Because it's "sacred?" According to who, the folks who own the Appalachian Bible College?

We make things sacred. I like respecting sacred spaces. I liie churches and temples. I like giving reverence. I like taking part in religious ceremonies. I like it. I think religion is the bees knees

I'm still an atheist.

As I observe religious behavior, to include discussions of same, I see religion as hobby. Folks really don't act like these spirits and creatures are real. If they truly were convinced and believed they would be asking themselves why they are getting out of bed everyday when they possess this superpower. Fact is they don't have any superpowers and aren't in contact with any superpowers. They realize that, and that's why they keep getting out of bed.

Everybody in a cultural bubble who only talk with people in their bubble, often end up not thinking particularly hard about why they believe what they believe. So they become lazy and stupid. But that doesn't describe all religious people. I'm from super atheist Sweden. In Sweden it's the atheists who are dumb and the religious who say the deep things. Human thought thrives under pressure

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

We make things sacred. I like respecting sacred spaces. I liie churches and temples. I like giving reverence. I like taking part in religious ceremonies. I like it. I think religion is the bees knees

I'm still an atheist.

That's super, I'm happy for you. I get the impression that religion in your description and experience is more like going to the movies, getting excited about the next installment of Avatar or Star Trek. That's a good thing. Religion in that sense is much less likely to descend further into war, Nazism, witch-burning and ethnic cleansing as has been its historical trajectory. It sounds very much like modern science has had a genuine and very positive impact on the concept of religion for you and those around you.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We make things sacred. I like respecting sacred spaces. I liie churches and temples. I like giving reverence. I like taking part in religious ceremonies. I like it. I think religion is the bees knees

I'm still an atheist.

That's super, I'm happy for you. I get the impression that religion in your description and experience is more like going to the movies, getting excited about the next installment of Avatar or Star Trek. That's a good thing. Religion in that sense is much less likely to descend further into war, Nazism, witch-burning and ethnic cleansing as has been its historical trajectory. It sounds very much like modern science has had a genuine and very positive impact on the concept of religion for you and those around you.

My template for religion is paganism. Not Christianity. Religion for me isn't about picking a dogma. It's not about picking a team. It's a smorgasbord of rituals and practices that help make your life better. Its nor binary. Its a sliding scale... you know... like every religion apart from Islam and Christianity. I don't use the term Abrahamic religions because Judaism is in practice more pagan than the other two.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'll take Secular Humanism, if I need a religion, no gods required. I have no idea why some people need a god in their lives, but lots of them so and plenty of them are smart, and educated.

The last time I visited my primary MD, she told me that because I do so much for my next door neighbor, who is also one of her patients and has told her that I do a lot for her, I will have more jewels in my crown. As most of you know that's a Christian belief that the more good deeds you do, the more you will be rewarded in heaven.

I really wanted to say something to her, like I don't believe that shit. I'm good without god. But, I decided to leave it alone. Most American doctors believe in a god or pretend that they do. Reading some of Joseph Campbell helped me understand that humans have always been drawn to mythology, so perhaps we're hard wired for it but in contemporary times, a lot of us have lost the wiring.

 

[dbz]

Reading some of Joseph Campbell helped me understand that humans have always been drawn to mythology, so perhaps we're hard wired for it but in contemporary times, a lot of us have lost the wiring.

Jordan Peterson might say the wiring is not lost in most, they have just plugged it into identity politics with Satan as the male patriarchy.

 

[abaddon]

perhaps we're hard wired for it but in contemporary times, a lot of us have lost the wiring.

Or moderns don't recognize it because they think of myths as explicitly about heroes and gods. But there are modern myths, even if the imagery isn't explicit. The "progress of humanity" for example. The heroes in that tale depends on what counts for "progress" to its believers. I suppose for secular humanists they'll mostly be the scientists and engineers.

Somebody once said that mythology is other people's religions. Believers don't see their own religion as mythology, as that suggests "false" to literal-minded people. I'm saying that the basic idea extends to secular thought too. The fish inside the fish bowl don't see the water they're swimming in. IOW many humans can't see the foundational metaphors that help shape their experience of the world (and the "facts" they live by).

 

[Copernicus]

I'll take Secular Humanism, if I need a religion, no gods required. I have no idea why some people need a god in their lives, but lots of them so and plenty of them are smart, and educated.

The last time I visited my primary MD, she told me that because I do so much for my next door neighbor, who is also one of her patients and has told her that I do a lot for her, I will have more jewels in my crown. As most of you know that's a Christian belief that the more good deeds you do, the more you will be rewarded in heaven.

I really wanted to say something to her, like I don't believe that shit. I'm good without god. But, I decided to leave it alone. Most American doctors believe in a god or pretend that they do. Reading some of Joseph Campbell helped me understand that humans have always been drawn to mythology, so perhaps we're hard wired for it but in contemporary times, a lot of us have lost the wiring.

My take on it is not that we are hardwired for belief in gods, but our brains are evolved in such a way that belief in divine moral authority is a side effect of the way our brains are wired. Richard Dawkins referred to this kind of thing as an evolutionary "misfire"--like the way in which moths navigate by light but are drawn into flames sometimes as a result.

As most of us know, brains form vast networks of neurons that use associations with sense data to form models of what our operating environment is like. Moving bodies need guidance systems, and that is basically the function of a brain--to keep us alive, healthy, and able to reproduce. At birth, we begin to learn everything under the protection and supervision of more mature individuals. We accept authority and guidance automatically, so those mature teachers become the prototype for gods. Polytheistic societies have pantheons structured as families, and gods are super-powerful, all-knowledgeable beings with super parental authority. We pray to them, just as we pleaded for favors and permissions from adults when we were children. Gods are completely human in their thought processes, desires, whims, and dominance relationships with humans. In short, atheism is not the most natural approach that most humans are going to take as they grow up and learn how things work. And it is entirely natural for them to feel the need for some kind of authoritative guide in defining moral behavior--the difference between good and bad. They feel threatened by atheists primarily because atheism rejects the existence of a moral authority and removes the underpinning for their basic beliefs about the difference between right and wrong behavior.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

They feel threatened by atheists primarily because atheism rejects the existence of a moral authority and removes the underpinning for their basic beliefs about the difference between right and wrong behavior.

I'm not so sure it's about a moral authority. I think it's more about dismissing their tribal identity as something important.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'll take Secular Humanism, if I need a religion, no gods required. I have no idea why some people need a god in their lives, but lots of them so and plenty of them are smart, and educated.

The last time I visited my primary MD, she told me that because I do so much for my next door neighbor, who is also one of her patients and has told her that I do a lot for her, I will have more jewels in my crown. As most of you know that's a Christian belief that the more good deeds you do, the more you will be rewarded in heaven.

I really wanted to say something to her, like I don't believe that shit. I'm good without god. But, I decided to leave it alone. Most American doctors believe in a god or pretend that they do. Reading some of Joseph Campbell helped me understand that humans have always been drawn to mythology, so perhaps we're hard wired for it but in contemporary times, a lot of us have lost the wiring.

My take on it is not that we are hardwired for belief in gods, but our brains are evolved in such a way that belief in divine moral authority is a side effect of the way our brains are wired. Richard Dawkins referred to this kind of thing as an evolutionary "misfire"--like the way in which moths navigate by light but are drawn into flames sometimes as a result.

As most of us know, brains form vast networks of neurons that use associations with sense data to form models of what our operating environment is like. Moving bodies need guidance systems, and that is basically the function of a brain--to keep us alive, healthy, and able to reproduce. At birth, we begin to learn everything under the protection and supervision of more mature individuals. We accept authority and guidance automatically, so those mature teachers become the prototype for gods. Polytheistic societies have pantheons structured as families, and gods are super-powerful, all-knowledgeable beings with super parental authority. We pray to them, just as we pleaded for favors and permissions from adults when we were children. Gods are completely human in their thought processes, desires, whims, and dominance relationships with humans. In short, atheism is not the most natural approach that most humans are going to take as they grow up and learn how things work. And it is entirely natural for them to feel the need for some kind of authoritative guide in defining moral behavior--the difference between good and bad. They feel threatened by atheists primarily because atheism rejects the existence of a moral authority and removes the underpinning for their basic beliefs about the difference between right and wrong behavior.

Bullshit. You've used a Christian filter to interpret all religion to be like Christianity. Christians have been doing it for millenea to convince themselves that everyone really is secretly a Christian. And this has bled into the beliefs of secularist post-Christians.

Hindu gods are amoral. They just maintain order. They are not good nor is their job to create goodness nor do they enourage it. When Arjuna doesn't want to kill people, Krisna swoops in and explains that he has to, even if he doesn't want to, because that is his duty. They also believe that your soul is the real you. The physical world doesn't matter.

Pagan religion is focused on order vs chaos. Not good vs evil. Pagan gods couldn’t give less of a shit how you live your life, as long as the trains go on time.

Zoroastrianism has a moral authority, Ahura Mazda. But they also have an immoral authority, Angra Mainu. Neither outranks the other.

Buddhists, like Hindus, reject this world. Good vs bad in this world doesn't matter. They teach that indulging your ego is destructive for you (not the world) and will come back to bite you, because doing so will obscure the truth of the material world's meaninglessness. Buddha isn't a moral police keeping an eye on you. Tallying up karmic points. That's just pure Christianity in Buddhist guise. In Buddhism being good is just as meaningless as being evil. Both are a waste of time and stuff you do to inflate your ego. Which is bad. They have no time for do gooders working in charities giving speeches about their work. Because they do it to be admired. Which is inflating ones ego. They see giving to charity as something positive because if you give away stuff without thought of personal gain you aren't inflating your ego. It's not about goodness. Buddhists don't care about goodness.

 

[Copernicus]

Bullshit. You've used a Christian filter to interpret all religion to be like Christianity. Christians have been doing it for millenea to convince themselves that everyone really is secretly a Christian. And this has bled into the beliefs of secularist post-Christians.

I have no idea where you got that from. I never said anything about Christianity or even Abrahamic gods. My remarks were about the belief in gods in general, which are obviously grounded in anthropomorphism. It isn't hard to see that gods are modeled on human beings. Polytheistic pantheons tend to have family structures--beings that behave like mothers, fathers, siblings, and relatives. Why else would they even care what human beings think or whether they survive or prosper? It isn't a sophisticated view of reality, but most people aren't sophisticated. The less anthropomorphic gods are (of God, in the case of monotheism), the less useful they are to human beings. If deities aren't swayed by love, loyalty, flattery, and other human emotional ties, then why even bother praying to them? What good are they? It is no accident that gods were invented in our image.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Bullshit. You've used a Christian filter to interpret all religion to be like Christianity. Christians have been doing it for millenea to convince themselves that everyone really is secretly a Christian. And this has bled into the beliefs of secularist post-Christians.

I have no idea where you got that from. I never said anything about Christianity or even Abrahamic gods. My remarks were about the belief in gods in general, which are obviously grounded in anthropomorphism. It isn't hard to see that gods are modeled on human beings. Polytheistic pantheons tend to have family structures--beings that behave like mothers, fathers, siblings, and relatives. Why else would they even care what human beings think or whether they survive or prosper? It isn't a sophisticated view of reality, but most people aren't sophisticated. The less anthropomorphic gods are (of God, in the case of monotheism), the less useful they are to human beings. If deities aren't swayed by love, loyalty, flattery, and other human emotional ties, then why even bother praying to them? What good are they? It is no accident that gods were invented in our image.

"our brains are evolved in such a way that belief in divine moral authority"

Did you not say that?

The pagan gods are swayed by correct ritual and the correct sacrifices. Maybe. You can do all the right things and still be screwed over by the whims of the gods. They don't care about us.

Hindu gods care about maintaining order in the universe. Only. They aren't swayed by shit.

Buddha isn't swayed by anything. He's not even paying attention anymore. We're on our own.

Ahura Mazda needs our help to stop chaos. It's almost like it's just a metaphor for life as an atheist.

Just stop. You see the world's religion 100% through a Christian lens. Also, the dumbest and most shallow religion ever devised. By doing this you are reducing millenea of philosophical thought to childish nonsense. The danger of doing that is that you are inflating your ego, making yourself superior to religious people. Its arrogant.

Christianity (and Islam) is anti-intelectual. It thinks deep philosophical thought and the questioning of religious dogma as threatening and harmful. No other world religion (including Judaism) is like that. They're all deep and reflective. Christianity is shallow and childish

Edit: just to clarify. The aims of Christianity isn't shallow and childish. Ie to check your ego and to keep us humble. Which is the same goal as Buddhism. I'm talking about theology. Christian theology is retarded. The practice of Christianity is infinitely wiser than the reasons Christian thinkers give us. Because it's a product of memetic evolution. Not the words of a prophet or saints