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Miraculous mutation.
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Why YEC can seem plausible
- Thread starter excreationist
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Miraculous mutation.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Sheesh, talk about inbreeding.
The Mark Of Ham was used as a rational for slavery by southern Christians.
I suspect when some Christians are faced with obvious contradictions their brain gets flooded with endorphins thinking about god, and that ends the inner conflict. Like a heroin addict getting a fix.
The Mark Of Ham was used as a rational for slavery by southern Christians.
I suspect when some Christians are faced with obvious contradictions their brain gets flooded with endorphins thinking about god, and that ends the inner conflict. Like a heroin addict getting a fix.
And, exhibit A…
So many “miracles” that never ever happen in the present while scientists are watching.
And the Trickster God who plants evidence that contradicts the miracles, requiring “believers” to make a choice, are you going to believe your myth, or your own lying eyes? They choose the heroin.
And that is one of the gaping plot holes of Christianity. If the god WANTED people to understand how the Young Earth happened, s/he could have left evidence of it, instead of hiding the evidence.
But, if you were a fraud, a human fraud, trying to make people believe a religion, how would you get it to happen? Would you place BELIEF without evidence as the highest moral value and test your marks constantly on it? Would you instruct them that believing an unseen, unevidenced miracle as an explanation is the holy and moral choice?
Look at the value of that. You can let them argue on your behalf, always telling them that they can say, “it was a miracle” and telling them that is a convincing argument and if anyone questions them on it, it is persecution as you foretold?
It’s a beautiful system. You can tell them anything and they will repeat it, fervently. Anything..
Including that it was a miracle that inbreeding didn’t cause deblitating mutations the way we actually see it happening.
You can tell them that animals trapped in a boat together won’t fight each other or starve of drown in their own shit, despite what we see in illegal zoos and the wild.
You can tell them that a global flood behaved differently than all other floods in how it deposited sediments.
You can tell them that a standing wave covered a mountain for 150 days, and they’ll say, yeah, that’s how I’ll answer that one!
You can tell them that The mountain changed its height by 10s of thousands of feet and temporarirly stored it in the oean trenches for 6 months, then moved it back, and left no trace.
You can tell them that genetic mutation was miraculously sped up after this “flood”, despite all evidence that it never was.
You can tell them that the earth is flat, and has corners, despite us orbiting around it.
You can tell them that humans populated the earth from the Middle East, despite the evidence that it was from Africa.
You can tell them that snakes and asses talk. Despite no one ever hearing that happen even a single time, ever.
You can tell them that the sun stood still in the sky for a day and they’ll believe it, despite no one else on the planet noticing.
You can tell them that witches exist and can do spells and they will kill women for you.
You can tell them that bread and wine can turn into flesh and blood. Not only will they believe you, because belief is holy, they’ll eat it.
You can tell them dragons existed, and that a man survived three days in a whale’s belly, and that a man called bears to attack children and they did.
YOu can tell them any manner of things, and, because you told them FIRST that the most holy thing they can do is believe you no matter what without question, they will accept all of it as more true than what their eyes can see in front of them.
Powerful wizardry of the psyche.
But, if you were a fraud, a human fraud, trying to make people believe a religion, how would you get it to happen? Would you place BELIEF without evidence as the highest moral value and test your marks constantly on it? Would you instruct them that believing an unseen, unevidenced miracle as an explanation is the holy and moral choice?
Look at the value of that. You can let them argue on your behalf, always telling them that they can say, “it was a miracle” and telling them that is a convincing argument and if anyone questions them on it, it is persecution as you foretold?
It’s a beautiful system. You can tell them anything and they will repeat it, fervently. Anything..
Including that it was a miracle that inbreeding didn’t cause deblitating mutations the way we actually see it happening.
You can tell them that animals trapped in a boat together won’t fight each other or starve of drown in their own shit, despite what we see in illegal zoos and the wild.
You can tell them that a global flood behaved differently than all other floods in how it deposited sediments.
You can tell them that a standing wave covered a mountain for 150 days, and they’ll say, yeah, that’s how I’ll answer that one!
You can tell them that The mountain changed its height by 10s of thousands of feet and temporarirly stored it in the oean trenches for 6 months, then moved it back, and left no trace.
You can tell them that genetic mutation was miraculously sped up after this “flood”, despite all evidence that it never was.
You can tell them that the earth is flat, and has corners, despite us orbiting around it.
You can tell them that humans populated the earth from the Middle East, despite the evidence that it was from Africa.
You can tell them that snakes and asses talk. Despite no one ever hearing that happen even a single time, ever.
You can tell them that the sun stood still in the sky for a day and they’ll believe it, despite no one else on the planet noticing.
You can tell them that witches exist and can do spells and they will kill women for you.
You can tell them that bread and wine can turn into flesh and blood. Not only will they believe you, because belief is holy, they’ll eat it.
You can tell them dragons existed, and that a man survived three days in a whale’s belly, and that a man called bears to attack children and they did.
YOu can tell them any manner of things, and, because you told them FIRST that the most holy thing they can do is believe you no matter what without question, they will accept all of it as more true than what their eyes can see in front of them.
Powerful wizardry of the psyche.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
Does it bother you that your god leaves you with such little ammo for you defend him? Supposedly the most powerful entity in the universe, and yet he can't arrange to have any independent evidence to help his followers demonstrate him? He supposedly only appears to a tiny group of people; hundreds of years before the printing press, thousands of years before iphones and cameras; then he never appears again. His followers are forced to defend him with weak analogies like "miraculous mutation" and etc. Are you convinced by the "miracles" found in the Koran or the golden plates in the Mormon book?
funinspace
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LOL, that is funny, but somehow I doubt humor was intended. Looks more like a transporter malfunction, or Q playing a joke...and probably no less a plausible an explanation.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
It's very frustrating! Until the theist understands logic and science, they will always walk away thinking that they won the debate by claiming "miracles happen". We just need to keep reminding them of the fallacies in this argument...
Learner
Veteran Member
Ah, a post in haste error, but NOT a major issue. Its clear from the original point on Shang-Di is quite understood, to be a Creator above all others. And the man that highlighted (debunked) why Zecharia Sitchin was wrong, wouldn't see Shang-Di, the Heavenly King in the same way as Sitchin - probably, to be fair, I think Dr. Michael Heiser is also Christian.
So... even if we are to stick with the line, that the Ming Dynasty is a later period. Where does your argument develope from there? I doubt you and Doc-Z can be saying Shan-Di plus the concept-understanding - an ultimate Lord and Creator was "their invention" in their time (Ming Dynasty).-
I'll exchange from Ming and use confucious as being early instead. 551 BC - 479 BC.
I agree, yes there exists a wealth of physical books that haven't yet been digitized to access online. (An old neihbour friend needed an old physics text book (not yet digitzed) from a particular author. That book costs $350 + not including post from the USA to UK ).
No probs, and I understand totally, 'peer review' and all that. And that's funny... when you say I pull un-named from Creationists sites. It's as if, Creationist sites or Christians in the modern world, don't know anything about.. or accept science at all, simply because they believe in God. It's a flawed notion. Fair enough there maybe some out there who possibly dismiss with a waving hand.. I don't go to those sites, nor would I use any such material of theirs which would be foolish. Got my reps to think about you know
Quite fair. This thread discussion has rekindled interest again to research a little (especially Chinese topic, the culture being interesting) and refresh myself searching old notes and old hardrives, regarding some of the things I came across at the time, which was from scientists (not mine) disagreements/or new problem discovered. Things may have changed since then, I may look a little foolish lol. But hopefully I can at least post more clearly some of the things I was alluding to.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Isn't a bigger gaping hole the fact that the flood story is a reworking of the much earlier Utnapishtim story from the Epic of Gilgamesh. With fundamentalist litteralist logic, if that's older, shouldn't it be the more accurate version?
Elixir
Made in America
No, it's not a flawed notion.
Whether or not these lying preachers or the fools who follow them "know anything about science at all" is totally irrelevant.
Because if they do know anything about it, they ignore it whenever it conflicts with their a priori conclusions. And that's most of the time.
If the evidence against what they wish to believe gets insurmountable they simply play the miracle card. *Poof!* Science be damned.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
This is entertaining, thanks all for some good chuckles to start the day.
In the 19th century a Christian had the idea that when god created the Earth things like fossils were placed there by god.
Human imagination got us to the moon and gave us vaccines. On therother hand it gave us creationism.
Chines traditions through today believe in forms of faith healing, a form of laying off hands. A uprnatural elent.
Tibetan Buddhism reeks of the supernatural. A literal reincarnation. Psychic powers.
From what I read from Confusion I'd say he would have ben speaking metaphorically. Chines culture had symbolism.
The image of a chimney could me family.
Heaven above would refer to hte aristocratic upper class. Earth below the common people.
We have our own metphors. Moterhood And Apple Pie. A slam dunk. Three srikes and yiu are out.
That is why it is impossible to understand Genesis without knowing the culture of the day and the language as used.
Imagine 3000 years from now trying to make sense of somebody like Johnny Carson or Eddy Murphy on stage..
In the 19th century a Christian had the idea that when god created the Earth things like fossils were placed there by god.
Human imagination got us to the moon and gave us vaccines. On therother hand it gave us creationism.
Chines traditions through today believe in forms of faith healing, a form of laying off hands. A uprnatural elent.
Tibetan Buddhism reeks of the supernatural. A literal reincarnation. Psychic powers.
From what I read from Confusion I'd say he would have ben speaking metaphorically. Chines culture had symbolism.
The image of a chimney could me family.
Heaven above would refer to hte aristocratic upper class. Earth below the common people.
We have our own metphors. Moterhood And Apple Pie. A slam dunk. Three srikes and yiu are out.
That is why it is impossible to understand Genesis without knowing the culture of the day and the language as used.
Imagine 3000 years from now trying to make sense of somebody like Johnny Carson or Eddy Murphy on stage..
Learner
Veteran Member
I have faith in decent observant people to be wary of any fraudulent scientism and false preaching.
Learner
Veteran Member
You're an interesting fellow steve, you (I suppose plurally too) always have some interesting alternative ideas of Christianity. I learn more each day.
funinspace
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I don't need an argument, as you haven't shown any sourcing for these quotes you seem to have pulled from a couple creationist sites that I Googled and found the same material from. These sites (which I don't know if they are the same ones you found these un-named quotes from), don't provide any sourcing to figure out if they are complete BS, or actually have some validity to them. Is there such a Ming statue with said quotes? Who the fuck knows... I'm not the one making the claim that such quotes exist for real. I'm not the one claiming that the collection of poems put together by Confucius says what you say it says. Does the Book of Odes (Shi Jing) say what you quote it as saying? Again, who the fuck knows. Have you read or have a copy of this collection of Chinese poems?
Again, my problem isn't that they are a Christian site, it is that the sites I found (and I assume probably about the same as where ever you got it from) don't provide any sourcing for claims about Chinese literature, or Ming statues. You seem to think these purported Chinese quotes are valid, and I wonder why you think so, when you are so quick and ready to pick at perceived flaws in archeology and geology. I've read 2 books on Sumerian archeology/history, and they are literally chock full of citations and sourcing of the material from antiquity.
Elixir
Made in America
If you're buying that creationism schtick, your faith is misplaced. Period. If you're buying the Young Earth variety, you're what is called a rube by the religion industry.
IT'S WRONG.
Learner
Veteran Member
It's your viewpoint, your 'faith in your surety' that no such thing as creation - is a brute fact. I don't believe the Earth is that old, that is my opinion, but having said that, it could be said that it may not be so young either! I guess we could apply the Goldy-Locks principle here - "not too hot and not to cold...but it's just right"
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
It's your viewpoint, your 'faith in your surety' that no such thing as creation - is a brute fact. I don't believe the Earth is that old, that is my opinion, but having said that, it could be said that it may not be so young either! I guess we could apply the Goldy-Locks principle here - "not too hot and not to cold...but it's just right"
A surety based in repeated experiment.
When you fly on a jet do you think the plane flies because of the science behind it or is it gods will?
There is nothing biblical about aerodynamics.
Science is a belief that objective demonstration of claims is what counts. Subjective perceptions and words in an ancient text scientifically do not count. One cana nd people do apply science and hold religious beifs.
Science des not address beliefs and vice versa. The problem is when demonstrated science and conclusions based on that conflict with subjective religious belief.
Estimates of the age of the Earth are based on techniques ha tcan be validated experimentally.
Just look 1300 years ago at one of the oldest publications written in English.. "The Departing Soul's Address to the Body"
https://archive.org/stream/thedepartingsoul19937gut/19937-0.txt
Which means
Elixir
Made in America
That, my cocksure friend, is brute ignorance.
Let me set you straight about my "surety", my "faith" and what I actually think about "creation" (as opposed to creationism) ... not that it matters to any cocksure religious rube... .
I believe there is a creation, i.e. an objective external reality about which we can learn. Exactly how and why it came to exist, and whether there is a singly embodied causal entity responsible for its existence, is currently beyond the purview of both science and religion*. If there is such an entity, neither science nor religions have any direct knowledge of it. That's what I believe, subject to change should evidence to the contrary be found.
Further, I believe that the nature of "creation" is more accurately determined by observation using the scientific method, than by trying to contort old texts into compliance with observable reality. This is easily verified by the fact that science WORKS.
Science defeats plagues and flies helicopters on mars. Religions bilk the rubes.
Science cures diseases, and enables weapons of war.
Religions only cause wars, and enrich scoundrels.
Show that I'm wrong. Guessing about goldilocks doesn't do it for me, but apparently YMMV. Hence, religions.
* Science has discovered mind-blowing facts about the early universe just since I've been on earth. Nothing new on the religious front, just the same old *poofery*.
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
Just to show that there are counter-arguments for this: (though I'm not a YEC)
About skin colour:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/baraminology/variation-yes-evolution-no/
So Adam and Eve could be AaBb and so could a lot of those on the Ark...
I guess in the Tower of Babel God separated the races and grouped the same ones together.... and God gave these groups their own consistent languages....