Why YEC can seem plausible

[Learner]

So that's why the Chinese of all people, seperated far away from the middle-east, had Genesis, a mono-theistic God in their classics too? Long before confucious? Well arighty then. More 'spanner in the works' it seems for some old notions.

Ancient Chinese Worship ShangDi of the Bible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLyVAE_JYFQ

Except for the reality that it is not generally understood that ShangDi was a monotheistic theology.

I thought the gentleman in the vid that I previously posted made a very nice presentation, perhaps a bit too Christiany for some, I must admit.

"What's not understood that Shang-Di was a montheistic theology" as you say could be the same view for the Hebrew God - in that, God was not alone either, AND like Shang-Di, He's in charge!!

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Shangdi
Shangdi (上帝, pinyin: Shàngdì, Wade-Giles Shang Ti), or simply Di (帝), is the High God (or Clan Ancestor) postulated in the earliest-known religious system of the Han Chinese people. The term can literally be translated as "Emperor (or Sovereign) Above," "Lord On High," "Highest Lord," "the Supreme God," or "Celestial Lord." While such terminology implies parallels with the divinities of the world's monotheistic traditions, two important differences must be acknowledged: first, while Shangdi was understood as a patriarchal ruler deity, this conception was not conflated with a role in the cosmogony; second, He was seen as one deity (ancestor) among many.

Yes it's a tad 'Book of Enoch-ish...'

Not sure why it hasn't dawned on some indviduals that the ' Most high,' who's in charge, the Supreme God would also be known to be the creator! Many heavenly entities, lords if you will, but only one Creator. Shang Di Created as it's written, with no others beside him in this theology mentioning other creators, or are there any mention of worshippers, who may of, apparently, worshipped the other unknown, un-named sons of God (if you will), from within the Tian heavenly circles .

And just when do you think Han's life happened that his decedents could have populated China? And how much geology (tree rings, ocean reef history, ice rings/layers) are you ignoring to create such a timeline?

Well, as I said, in a post I wouldn't accept geology records so easily - Cambrian explosion issue for example. Possibly I'm a little out of date and there's been some updates.

With such hand waving conjecture, I'd could easily say Ra under Pharaoh Akhenaten provided the monotheistic construct from which the archaic Hebrews morphed their tribal Yahweh god, into their monotheistic god....at least the timing for this actually works pretty well.

I think we can determine now, that we can apply the mono-theistic theme to any god if with a little clarity or understanding in context. In this regard and my opinion, it's One Creator and many lords (like the bible).

 

[Rhea]

I think we can determine now, that we can apply the mono-theistic theme to any god if with a little clarity or understanding in context. In this regard and my opinion, it's One Creator and many lords (like the bible).

And your thesis is that anyone who came up with a one-head-god theology must have been making up an identical story? Or that they must have been descended from a single story?


Or am I misinterpreting? Are you saying that the existence of two monotheistic societies indicates a necessary shared history?

Have you ever heard a child make up a story? They look at things, like a wolf pack, with an alpha male, and make up stories with an alpha character. Regularly. Independently.

 

[funinspace]

I thought the gentleman in the vid that I previously posted made a very nice presentation, perhaps a bit too Christiany for some, I must admit.

"What's not understood that Shang-Di was a montheistic theology" as you say could be the same view for the Hebrew God - in that, God was not alone either, AND like Shang-Di, He's in charge!!

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Shangdi
Shangdi (上帝, pinyin: Shàngdì, Wade-Giles Shang Ti), or simply Di (帝), is the High God (or Clan Ancestor) postulated in the earliest-known religious system of the Han Chinese people. The term can literally be translated as "Emperor (or Sovereign) Above," "Lord On High," "Highest Lord," "the Supreme God," or "Celestial Lord." While such terminology implies parallels with the divinities of the world's monotheistic traditions, two important differences must be acknowledged: first, while Shangdi was understood as a patriarchal ruler deity, this conception was not conflated with a role in the cosmogony; second, He was seen as one deity (ancestor) among many.

Yes it's a tad 'Book of Enoch-ish...'

Not sure why it hasn't dawned on some indviduals that the ' Most high,' who's in charge, the Supreme God would also be known to be the creator! Many heavenly entities, lords if you will, but only one Creator. Shang Di Created as it's written, with no others beside him in this theology mentioning other creators, or are there any mention of worshippers, who may of, apparently, worshipped the other unknown, un-named sons of God (if you will), from within the Tian heavenly circles .

So you are now pantheistic? I underlined a key part where the article makes it pretty obvious we are not talking about the same kind of god construct. Or is Yahweh, just yahweh?

cosmology - the science of the origin and development of the universe

And just when do you think Han's life happened that his decedents could have populated China? And how much geology (tree rings, ocean reef history, ice rings/layers) are you ignoring to create such a timeline?

Well, as I said, in a post I wouldn't accept geology records so easily - Cambrian explosion issue for example. Possibly I'm a little out of date and there's been some updates.

I'm not talking about millions upon millions of years ago. Tree rings trace the climate back around 10,000 years. Ice core samples take us back about 800,000 years.
Refs:
https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/how-climate-works/tree-rings-and-climate
http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glaciers-and-climate/ice-cores/ice-core-basics/

Neither of these would not see a massive shock in the sampled data by a Noachian deluge that kills all the other humans. So again, what crude estimate of time would Ham existed in? 10,000 years back +/- 5000 years? 50,000 years back +/- 20,000 years? Or maybe a million years back +/- 200,000 years go get away from the pesky data? Or are all these scientists so bamboozled by their luv of naturalistic explanations, that they can't see the problem? At the same time human science has probes on Mars flying helicopters, surgeons replace pretty much any human organ, never mind the computers we call smartphones...without the science breaking.

With such hand waving conjecture, I'd could easily say Ra under Pharaoh Akhenaten provided the monotheistic construct from which the archaic Hebrews morphed their tribal Yahweh god, into their monotheistic god....at least the timing for this actually works pretty well.

I think we can determine now, that we can apply the mono-theistic theme to any god if with a little clarity or understanding in context. In this regard and my opinion, it's One Creator and many lords (like the bible).

No idea of what you are getting at here...

 

[bilby]

Honestly, your posts are like watching a drowning man grasp on to a wine bottle cork and say "I'm okay, really". . . .

I certainly don't feel it as that.

As it seems you weren't aware. I was just posting in a like-wise manner.

In a 'Ask a silly question get a silly answer' context.

Just bantor.

If that's really what you think the people you're responding to are doing, then you need to read their posts much more carefully.

This isn't just banter, it's an attempt at debate. People are making serious points, and it's highly insulting for you not to at least attempt to respond in kind, if you respond at all.

 

[Elixir]

are all these scientists so bamboozled by their luv of naturalistic explanations, that they can't see the problem?

Yes, that’s the riff when you take out all the ambiguity and nebulous inference.

At the same time human science has probes on Mars flying helicopters, surgeons replace pretty much any human organ, never mind the computers we call smartphones...without the science breaking.

“Yabut none of that would be possible without God!”
Presupposing the conclusion usually serves as an adequate distraction, enabling the characteristic blithe denial.

 

[steve_bank]

There are people who after immersing themselves in scifi begin to take fictional science as real.

I hear it on George Norrey's Coast To Coast radio show.

It is all about human nature and how we are wired.

 

[bilby]

The question I always have about the story of Noah's Ark is a simple one:

How was it that nobody else anywhere in the entire world owned a boat?

 

[ideologyhunter]

The question I always have about the story of Noah's Ark is a simple one:

How was it that nobody else anywhere in the entire world owned a boat?

Omigod. If "LOL" didn't exist as internet lingo, this post would create it.

 

[excreationist]

The question I always have about the story of Noah's Ark is a simple one:

How was it that nobody else anywhere in the entire world owned a boat?

Omigod. If "LOL" didn't exist as internet lingo, this post would create it.

Perhaps that's why the flood waters lasted about a year in the story..... to make sure the rivals would starve to death....

 

[DBT]

So all the fish in the sea perished in The Flood?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Here's a great quote from the ancient Latin poet Ovid. Predating Jesus by a century.

This is a response after he's been accused of being disingenuous. He then points out that it's a poets job to seem authentic while they in reality, are just making shit up. He then lists some of the most central Roman and Greek religious myths and blatantly asserts they're all fantasy invented by poets to move an audience.

Through us, Scylla, who robbed her father of his white hair, bears the raging dogs 651 beneath her thigh and loins. We have given wings to the feet, serpents to the hair; the victorious descendant of Abas 652 is borne upon the winged steed. We, too, have extended Tityus 653 over the vast space, and have formed the three mouths for the dog bristling -with snakes. We have described Enceladus, 654 hurling with his thousand arms; and the heroes captivated by the voice of the two-shaped damsels. 655 In the Ithacan bags 656 have we enclosed the winds of Æolus; the treacherous Tantalus thirsts in the middle of the stream. Of Niobe we have made the rock, of the damsel, the she-bear; the Cecropian 657 bird sings of Odrysian Itys. Jupiter transforms himself, either into a bird, or into gold 658 or, as a bull, with the virgin placed upon him, he cleaves the waves. Why mention Proteus, and the Theban seed, 659 the teeth? Why that there were bulls, which vomited flames from their mouths? Why, charioteer, that thy sisters distil amber tears? 660 Why that they are now Goddesses of the sea, who once were ships? 661 Why that the light of day fled from the hellish banquet 662 of Atreus? And why that the hard stones followed the lyre 663 as it was struck?

The fertile license of the Poets ranges over an immense space; and it ties not its words to the accuracy of history. So, too, ought my mistress to have been deemed to be falsely praised; now is your credulity a mischief to me.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/47676/47676-h/47676-h.htm#link2H_4_0049

Amores, book 3, elegy 12

This is what he was most criticized for by his contemporaries. Back in his day when literacy was low poets were like stage magicians. They kept their methods for writing secret. He was like a stage magicians who openly gave away his secrets. He liked playing around with poetic form and often broke the fourth wall.

The other poets also knew this was all made up. They just were in on it and tried their best to keep up a united front in order to keep the myth building more effective.

The Bible, coming from the same tradition, is of course EXACTLY THE SAME kind of book.

 

[excreationist]

So all the fish in the sea perished in The Flood?

Yeah I forgot about fishing... but it might not have been a consistent enough food source to last a year... seven weeks without food normally results in death...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2912711/

 

[Learner]

I think we can determine now, that we can apply the mono-theistic theme to any god if with a little clarity or understanding in context. In this regard and my opinion, it's One Creator and many lords (like the bible).

And your thesis is that anyone who came up with a one-head-god theology must have been making up an identical story? Or that they must have been descended from a single story?


Or am I misinterpreting? Are you saying that the existence of two monotheistic societies indicates a necessary shared history?

Have you ever heard a child make up a story? They look at things, like a wolf pack, with an alpha male, and make up stories with an alpha character. Regularly. Independently.

In this case, so far, it seems probable - in the ancient Chinese texts there are implications that both originate from the same source. Unless.... such a possibilty of the text examples below, were shown to come about, by how you mention above in the same way "a child make up a story" - as a "coincidence":

“Of old in the beginning, there was the great chaos without form and dark. The five elements had not begun to revolve, nor the sun and moon to shine. You, O Spiritual Sovereign, first divided the grosser parts from the purer. You made heaven. You made earth. You made man. All things with their reproducing power got their being.” The Statutes of the Ming Dynasty


“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light.’ …and God divided the light from the darkness…Then God made the two great lights, the greater light (sun) to rule the day and the lesser light (moon) to rule the night…Then God said let Us make man in Our image… Then God blessed them and said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply’…”
Genesis, Old Testment.

“When ShangDi, the Lord, had so decreed, He called into existence heaven, earth, and man.” The Statutes of the Ming Dynasty

* Also answering funinspace, It's clear here who the ultimate creator is.

Another aspect of these woshippers according to the Chinese texts was their rituals of sacrificing animals (Border sacrifice, as its know as) which was yearly like the ancient Hebrews, for their sins. The traditions of alter sacrifice and worship has been carried out from emperor to emperor. Today the alter and worship minus animal sacrifce, should be of no surprise, what still carries on today in China even though there are variants, it's still a tradition as it is for other faiths too.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think we can determine now, that we can apply the mono-theistic theme to any god if with a little clarity or understanding in context. In this regard and my opinion, it's One Creator and many lords (like the bible).

And your thesis is that anyone who came up with a one-head-god theology must have been making up an identical story? Or that they must have been descended from a single story?


Or am I misinterpreting? Are you saying that the existence of two monotheistic societies indicates a necessary shared history?

Have you ever heard a child make up a story? They look at things, like a wolf pack, with an alpha male, and make up stories with an alpha character. Regularly. Independently.

In this case, so far, it seems probable - in the ancient Chinese texts there are implications that both originate from the same source. Unless.... such a possibilty of the text examples below, were shown to come about, by how you mention above in the same way "a child make up a story" - as a "coincidence":

“Of old in the beginning, there was the great chaos without form and dark. The five elements had not begun to revolve, nor the sun and moon to shine. You, O Spiritual Sovereign, first divided the grosser parts from the purer. You made heaven. You made earth. You made man. All things with their reproducing power got their being.” The Statutes of the Ming Dynasty


“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light.’ …and God divided the light from the darkness…Then God made the two great lights, the greater light (sun) to rule the day and the lesser light (moon) to rule the night…Then God said let Us make man in Our image… Then God blessed them and said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply’…”
Genesis, Old Testment.

“When ShangDi, the Lord, had so decreed, He called into existence heaven, earth, and man.” The Statutes of the Ming Dynasty

* Also answering funinspace, It's clear here who the ultimate creator is.

Another aspect of these woshippers according to the Chinese texts was their rituals of sacrificing animals (Border sacrifice, as its know as) which was yearly like the ancient Hebrews, for their sins. The traditions of alter sacrifice and worship has been carried out from emperor to emperor. Today the alter and worship minus animal sacrifce, should be of no surprise, what still carries on today in China even though there are variants, it's still a tradition as it is for other faiths too.

When I google that quote I only came to Bible pages.

After searching around a bit for sources I find this.

https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/23/original-unknown-god-china-ancient-pictogram-scrip/

It's just made up by Christian apologetics. Ie complete and utter bullshit.

I'm no expert on Chinese mythology. But I've read some. Chinese religions have six distinct creation myths that are wildly different. Scholars agree these all seem to have sprung up independently.

Yes, they have similar themes to the Jewish myths because of the obvious subject matter. There's only so many variants possible to come up with for iron age farmers.

Secular scholars all seem to agree that the creation myth that ended up in Christianity is a product of Mesopotamia and is home grown. This is based on comparing various elements in the stories.

 

[Learner]

It's just made up by Christian apologetics. Ie complete and utter bullshit.

Source or Chinese texts posted.....
Stautes of the Ming Dynasty. Can't make up that up or get any earlier than that.


It's often argued that the Golden Rule was way before Jesus and Confucous was attributed to be the originator of this philosopy - I vaguely remember you said something like this (If I'm correct). But I wonder....

Confucious also believed in a Shang Di .

“How vast is ShangDi, the Ruler of men below”
“Heaven gave birth to the multitudes of people”
The Book of Odes

 

[DrZoidberg]

Source or Chinese texts.....

Stautes of the Ming Dynasty. Can't get forge those or get any earlier than that.

Oh, look what I found. This sure made life easy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_creation_myths

edit: The Ming Emperor banned Christianity.

 

[bilby]

It's just made up by Christian apologetics. Ie complete and utter bullshit.

Source or Chinese texts .....
Stautes of the Ming Dynasty. Can't make up that up or get any earlier than that.

Anything can be made up.

Including claims that certain things cannot be made up.

 

[Learner]

Yes of course, and obviously we need to determine whether the claim is made up or not. So far it's still an ongoing progressive process with the bible, regardless of how much we have developed, as for Shang Di, it seems this may be the same also.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Worth noting is that Christianity did travel East and by AD 700 the church was well established and big. It waxed and waned until the rise of the Mongols. A lot of the Mongols were Christian and it spread aggressively wherever the Mongols ripped by. Churches springing up in the wake of the Golden Horde.

But when the Ming dynasty replaced the Khan's on the imperial throne of China they banned and suppressed Christianity. And from 1400 onward it was an underground religion. Whether or not it survived underground until missionaries came over in 1700's nobody can say. But it likely did influence Chinese thought in one way or another.

 

[Learner]

Source or Chinese texts.....

Stautes of the Ming Dynasty. Can't get forge those or get any earlier than that.

Oh, look what I found. This sure made life easy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_creation_myths

edit: The Ming Emperor banned Christianity.

To be expected, there wll always be counters to creation belief, on wikipedia. But yes worth investigating out of interest as you're doing.