Will a man step up and be the Counter-Sarkeesian against romance novels?

[repoman]

How would that work?

Is it worth the effort?

Will he be sexistly told to "man up" and mind his own business?

--------------------------------------------

Example of Sarkeesian's arguments, in regards to one of the tropes of a video game main character getting the motivation to be violent through a kidnapping or murder of a woman or family: "Failed hero stories are the percieved loss of masculinity and then the quest to regain that masculinity. Primarily by exerting dominance and control through the performance of violence on others." So a massively built male character feels emasculated by being punked because his property was killed and not enraged because his love was killed? Sounds about right...

 

[Unbeatable]

It seems to me that a man complaining about romance novels as a response to Sarkeesian's complaints about video games would probably be missing the point.

 

[Jayjay]

It seems to me that a man complaining about romance novels as a response to Sarkeesian's complaints about video games would probably be missing the point.

Not to mention sexist. Are romance novels supposed to be to girls what video games are to boys?

 

[Bronzeage]

How would that work?

Is it worth the effort?

Will he be sexistly told to "man up" and mind his own business?

--------------------------------------------

Example of Sarkeesian's arguments, in regards to one of the tropes of a video game main character getting the motivation to be violent through a kidnapping or murder of a woman or family: "Failed hero stories are the percieved loss of masculinity and then the quest to regain that masculinity. Primarily by exerting dominance and control through the performance of violence on others." So a massively built male character feels emasculated by being punked because his property was killed and not enraged because his love was killed? Sounds about right...

I suppose the relevant parts of the OP were edited out, but I will offer this observation. If anyone thinks video game plots have discovered some new literary device, they weren't paying attention in their comparative literature classes. Video games are just a new medium with which to tell very old stories. Ever since we progressed from the spoken word age of literature, to the technological storytelling age, with its clay tablets, papyrus, scrolls, printed paper, and finally back to tablets, again, every new medium gets the same hazing. The medium is not the message, it's just the messenger.

There was a time when comic books were rotting the minds of American youth. What happened to that clear and present danger? They don't call them comic books anymore, mostly because they stopped being funny, but that's another story.

 

[Unbeatable]

There was a time when comic books were rotting the minds of American youth. What happened to that clear and present danger?

Are you referring to the business that resulted in the creation of the Comics Code Authority?

The primary audiences for comic books from the major publishers these days are a dwindling bunch of teens and adults, so it would be silly for anyone to worry about comics rotting children's minds.

That's not to say that there isn't also controversy among comic book fandom regarding the role of female characters and creators in the industry. There seems to be a whole chorus of complaints about sexism in geek culture, which encompasses comic books and video games, though video games are apparently the more important industry these days.

They don't call them comic books anymore, mostly because they stopped being funny, but that's another story.

Those of us who read them still call them comic books. Though some people also say "graphic novels", I've never seen anybody insist on that phrase, apart from parodies of fanboys.

 

[Bronzeage]

Are you referring to the business that resulted in the creation of the Comics Code Authority?

The primary audiences for comic books from the major publishers these days are a dwindling bunch of teens and adults, so it would be silly for anyone to worry about comics rotting children's minds.

That's not to say that there isn't also controversy among comic book fandom regarding the role of female characters and creators in the industry. There seems to be a whole chorus of complaints about sexism in geek culture, which encompasses comic books and video games, though video games are apparently the more important industry these days.

They don't call them comic books anymore, mostly because they stopped being funny, but that's another story.

Those of us who read them still call them comic books. Though some people also say "graphic novels", I've never seen anybody insist on that phrase, apart from parodies of fanboys.

When a statement begins with "there was a time," it indicates something which occurred in the past and in this case, is intended to show the latest noise is about nothing new. The same sort of noise was made about motion pictures, which resulted in a self imposed moral code, similar to the Comics Code Authority.

 

[credoconsolans]

It seems to me that a man complaining about romance novels as a response to Sarkeesian's complaints about video games would probably be missing the point.

Not to mention sexist. Are romance novels supposed to be to girls what video games are to boys?

No.

Romance novels are to women, what porn is to men.

Both give a fantasy image of the opposite sex, being exactly what the reader/watcher wants them to be which is not often found in real life.

 

[Unbeatable]

When a statement begins with "there was a time," it indicates something which occurred in the past and in this case, is intended to show the latest noise is about nothing new. The same sort of noise was made about motion pictures, which resulted in a self imposed moral code, similar to the Comics Code Authority.

Yeah, what I should have said is that your post missed the point, since nobody relevant to this discussion actually thinks that video game plots have discovered some new literary device, and nobody relevant to this discussion has actually singled video games out as worse than anything else. Sarkeesian's complaints appear to be about the sexist tropes themselves, with video games as a mere source of examples.

 

[Bronzeage]

When a statement begins with "there was a time," it indicates something which occurred in the past and in this case, is intended to show the latest noise is about nothing new. The same sort of noise was made about motion pictures, which resulted in a self imposed moral code, similar to the Comics Code Authority.

Yeah, what I should have said is that your post missed the point, since nobody relevant to this discussion actually thinks that video game plots have discovered some new literary device, and nobody relevant to this discussion has actually singled video games out as worse than anything else. Sarkeesian's complaints appear to be about the sexist tropes themselves, with video games as a mere source of examples.

If she wants art, she should go read Ulysses.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Will a man step up and be the Counter-Sarkeesian against romance novels?

Wouldn't being the Counter-Sarkeesian require showing that men in video games do NOT teach the player to consider the damsel his property? Attacking romances doesn't improve video games' reputations.

But, hey, what would a video game that really pushes that concept, women as property, be like?

Instead of an inventory of tools and weapons, your hero would collect a harem as he progresses through the game. Then when he needs to get through a barrier, he might use the lockpick skills of the prostitute he picked up in the bazaar, or the dynamite skills of the ex-army woman who was homeless after being demobilized, or he might choose to aim the high-class escort from the casino at the gate guard.
Maybe the farmer's daughter just wants to see some of the world outside the valley before she dies, let her be the bullet sponge.

You'll learn not to send the redhead in if there's a chance of snakes, spiders or bats. Not to trust the homeless woman with carrying any of your jewels. Not to depend on the blonde in any situation with complications like safe combinations, difficult navigation or doorknobs....

 

[Under the Rose]

How would that work?

Is it worth the effort?

Will he be sexistly told to "man up" and mind his own business?

--------------------------------------------

Example of Sarkeesian's arguments, in regards to one of the tropes of a video game main character getting the motivation to be violent through a kidnapping or murder of a woman or family: "Failed hero stories are the percieved loss of masculinity and then the quest to regain that masculinity. Primarily by exerting dominance and control through the performance of violence on others." So a massively built male character feels emasculated by being punked because his property was killed and not enraged because his love was killed? Sounds about right...

Heterosexual men should be appreciative of the romance novel genre for deluding young females into contemplating a relationship with a man.

 

[NobleSavage]

Not to mention sexist. Are romance novels supposed to be to girls what video games are to boys?

No.

Romance novels are to women, what porn is to men.

Both give a fantasy image of the opposite sex, being exactly what the reader/watcher wants them to be which is not often found in real life.

^^^This

 

[Bronzeage]

Not to mention sexist. Are romance novels supposed to be to girls what video games are to boys?

No.

Romance novels are to women, what porn is to men.

Both give a fantasy image of the opposite sex, being exactly what the reader/watcher wants them to be which is not often found in real life.

This is true, but porn and romance novels are not exclusive to one sex alone. Plenty of women view porn and plenty of men read romance(generally the more graphic sub-genres) novels. The key phrase here is "not often found in real life." That is what all us want, in some way or another.

The main difference, if there is one, seems to be the fan mail. The email I have received from male readers never fails to be creepy. They are very small minority and my women writer friends tell me I have gotten off easy.


T

 

[credoconsolans]

No.

Romance novels are to women, what porn is to men.

Both give a fantasy image of the opposite sex, being exactly what the reader/watcher wants them to be which is not often found in real life.

This is true, but porn and romance novels are not exclusive to one sex alone. Plenty of women view porn and plenty of men read romance(generally the more graphic sub-genres) novels. The key phrase here is "not often found in real life." That is what all us want, in some way or another.

The main difference, if there is one, seems to be the fan mail. The email I have received from male readers never fails to be creepy. They are very small minority and my women writer friends tell me I have gotten off easy.


T

They do? In my entire life, I have never known a man who reads bodice busters. Ever.

Perhaps they do it secretly?

 

[Bronzeage]

This is true, but porn and romance novels are not exclusive to one sex alone. Plenty of women view porn and plenty of men read romance(generally the more graphic sub-genres) novels. The key phrase here is "not often found in real life." That is what all us want, in some way or another.

The main difference, if there is one, seems to be the fan mail. The email I have received from male readers never fails to be creepy. They are very small minority and my women writer friends tell me I have gotten off easy.


T

They do? In my entire life, I have never known a man who reads bodice busters. Ever.

Perhaps they do it secretly?

"Bodice busters" are the thick novels which feature the heroine going from crisis to crisis, until she is finally reunited with some guy she met in the first chapter. The phrases, "proud manhood" and "tender sex" tend to be used as anatomical labels. The male readers of romance novels usually go for the more explicit kind of romance.

 

[credoconsolans]

They do? In my entire life, I have never known a man who reads bodice busters. Ever.

Perhaps they do it secretly?

"Bodice busters" are the thick novels which feature the heroine going from crisis to crisis, until she is finally reunited with some guy she met in the first chapter. The phrases, "proud manhood" and "tender sex" tend to be used as anatomical labels. The male readers of romance novels usually go for the more explicit kind of romance.

Now there is such a thing as erotica, which differs from bodice busters, even explicit bodice busters.

Explicit bodice busters are still meant to have plot. Erotica less so.

 

[Bronzeage]

"Bodice busters" are the thick novels which feature the heroine going from crisis to crisis, until she is finally reunited with some guy she met in the first chapter. The phrases, "proud manhood" and "tender sex" tend to be used as anatomical labels. The male readers of romance novels usually go for the more explicit kind of romance.

Now there is such a thing as erotica, which differs from bodice busters, even explicit bodice busters.

Explicit bodice busters are still meant to have plot. Erotica less so.

That really depends on who is writing.

Bodice rippers are usually set in the 18th of 19th century, which seems to be when bodices were most in peril. Erotica(as distinguished from the pulpy paperbacks which are meant to be read three pages at a time) can be set in more current times. The main characters develop a strong relationship, and the sex scenes, while explicit are realistic in tone.

 

[credoconsolans]

Now there is such a thing as erotica, which differs from bodice busters, even explicit bodice busters.

Explicit bodice busters are still meant to have plot. Erotica less so.

That really depends on who is writing.

Bodice rippers are usually set in the 18th of 19th century, which seems to be when bodices were most in peril. Erotica(as distinguished from the pulpy paperbacks which are meant to be read three pages at a time) can be set in more current times. The main characters develop a strong relationship, and the sex scenes, while explicit are realistic in tone.

No, bodice rippers can be set at anytime.

 

[Bronzeage]

That really depends on who is writing.

Bodice rippers are usually set in the 18th of 19th century, which seems to be when bodices were most in peril. Erotica(as distinguished from the pulpy paperbacks which are meant to be read three pages at a time) can be set in more current times. The main characters develop a strong relationship, and the sex scenes, while explicit are realistic in tone.

No, bodice rippers can be set at anytime.

I'm sure they can be, but there is a shortage of stable boys once we enter the 20th century. I suppose one could write one set in a women's prison and call it an orange jumpsuit ripper. Romance novels set in contemporary times are more often called "flaming pantie fiction."

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Also, it's harder for the hero to have a dark and mysterious past that he's afraid the woman will find out when she can just google him.