Will the military follow Trump or the law and constitution when Trump gives an illegal order?

[crazyfingers]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/politics/pentagon-concern-trump-decision-making/index.html

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal. Of course it goes back further than that.

Will the military split against itself. One side on the law and constitution and the other with Trump?

Trumps regards the US military is his, not the country's.

With one illegal order trump could bring about civil war.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/politics/pentagon-concern-trump-decision-making/index.html

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal. Of course it goes back further than that.

Will the military split against itself. One side on the law and constitution and the other with Trump?

Trumps regards the US military is his, not the country's.

With one illegal order trump could bring about civil war.

I don't think there is a significant chance of any civil war. Military personnel usually follow their orders, and it would be extremely unlikely for them to refuse on account on their being illegal - it would have to be too obvious. Some might retire if they are senior officers and think a policy is not legal, I suppose.

At any rate, the problem is over in about a year if Trump loses, or about five years otherwise.

 

[crazyfingers]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/politics/pentagon-concern-trump-decision-making/index.html

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal. Of course it goes back further than that.

Will the military split against itself. One side on the law and constitution and the other with Trump?

Trumps regards the US military is his, not the country's.

With one illegal order trump could bring about civil war.

I don't think there is a significant chance of any civil war. Military personnel usually follow their orders, and it would be extremely unlikely for them to refuse on account on their being illegal - it would have to be too obvious. Some might retire if they are senior officers and think a policy is not legal, I suppose.

At any rate, the problem is over in about a year if Trump loses, or about five years otherwise.

You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/politics/pentagon-concern-trump-decision-making/index.html

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal. Of course it goes back further than that.

Will the military split against itself. One side on the law and constitution and the other with Trump?

Trumps regards the US military is his, not the country's.

With one illegal order trump could bring about civil war.

I don't think there is a significant chance of any civil war. Military personnel usually follow their orders, and it would be extremely unlikely for them to refuse on account on their being illegal - it would have to be too obvious. Some might retire if they are senior officers and think a policy is not legal, I suppose.

At any rate, the problem is over in about a year if Trump loses, or about five years otherwise.

You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?

I don't think he's remotely insane enough to do that, so to me this is an unrealistic counterfactual. They would not "arrest congress", and they would not want to get into a firefight with the USCP, but this is so far out that there is no need to actually worry.

 

[crazyfingers]

You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?

I don't think he's remotely insane enough to do that, so to me this is an unrealistic counterfactual. They would not "arrest congress", and they would not want to get into a firefight with the USCP, but this is so far out that there is no need to actually worry.

You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen? Have you read the link?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

You misunderstand. It would be Trump issuing the illegal order and the officers who will have to decide to follow the illegal order, refuse or resign. And then what will the troops do? If Trump orders the a military to arrest congress, which I believe he is insane enough to do, what would the military do?

Would there be a civil war within the military? And what of the rest of the country?

Will rabid Trump culters in the military revolt against their officers?

I don't think he's remotely insane enough to do that, so to me this is an unrealistic counterfactual. They would not "arrest congress", and they would not want to get into a firefight with the USCP, but this is so far out that there is no need to actually worry.

You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen?

It depends on what the order is, and whom he gives the order to. As long as the illegality of the order is not clear to the officer, it would be followed. Else, I do not know. But again, this does not seem to be that big a risk. The pardons pander to part of his base (though I think they would backfire if Democrats manage to pick a mediocre candidate at least, which they may well not), but that's about it. If you're not concerned about that case, good. But what sort of order do you have in mind?

 

[crazyfingers]

You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen?

It depends on what the order is, and whom he gives the order to. As long as the illegality of the order is not clear to the officer, it would be followed. Else, I do not know. But again, this does not seem to be that big a risk. The pardons pander to part of his base (though I think they would backfire if Democrats manage to pick a mediocre candidate at least, which they may well not), but that's about it. If you're not concerned about that case, good. But what sort of order do you have in mind?

Suppose Trump ordered the military to arrest one federal court district judge who ruled against him. I believe that Trump is insane enough to do that. What would the military do? How would Trump respond to an officer who refused to follow Trump's illegal order. How would it end?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen?

It depends on what the order is, and whom he gives the order to. As long as the illegality of the order is not clear to the officer, it would be followed. Else, I do not know. But again, this does not seem to be that big a risk. The pardons pander to part of his base (though I think they would backfire if Democrats manage to pick a mediocre candidate at least, which they may well not), but that's about it. If you're not concerned about that case, good. But what sort of order do you have in mind?

Suppose Trump ordered the military to arrest one federal court district judge who ruled against him. I believe that Trump is insane enough to do that. What would the military do? How would Trump respond to an officer who refused to follow Trump's illegal order. How would it end?

I don't think Trump is nearly crazy enough to do that. But in any case, the military is not in the business of arresting people, so the officers who receive the order would probably say it is not their function to arrest people.

But still, I think you - alongside millions more on your side - are getting worried by hypothetical scenarios so improbable that they're not worth bothering. If a federal judge rules against him, he will appeal, not arrest the judge.

 

[Derec]

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal.

He took a photo next to a dead scumbag. Is that really worthy of the label "war criminal", esp. next to stuff ISIS has been doing on the regular?

 

[Patooka]

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal.

He took a photo next to a dead scumbag. Is that really worthy of the label "war criminal", esp. next to stuff ISIS has been doing on the regular?

If that's all he did, his entire team wouldn't be so adamant to never work with him ever again. And this is the first time I've ever heard of Navy SEALS blowing the whistle on one of their own. I honestly can't think of an instance where a single SEAL has been a whistleblower, let alone an entire group unanimously saying this guy is a war criminal. To use a comparison you might understand, this guy is as innocent of murder as OJ Simpson.

 

[bilby]

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal.

He took a photo next to a dead scumbag. Is that really worthy of the label "war criminal", esp. next to stuff ISIS has been doing on the regular?

That you consider "He's not as bad as ISIS" to be a worthy argument tells us all we need to know.

If you were up in front of a judge accused of robbery, would you say "I didn't murder the victim, so it's no big deal"? If so, do you imagine that the court would find that a compelling argument for acquittal?

A crime remains a crime, EVEN IF someone somewhere has committed an even worse crime. The misbehaviour of others doesn't constitute mitigating circumstances, and the US military almost certainly would like to set the bar for the conduct of their personnel somewhat above that of ISIS, even if you personally would not.

 

[Derec]

That you consider "He's not as bad as ISIS" to be a worthy argument tells us all we need to know.

Many orders of magnitude not as bad as ISIS. Not even as bad as Abu Ghraib.
Seriously, taking a photo with a dead scumbag is not a "war crime". It may violate US military regulations, but it is by no means a "war crime"

If you were up in front of a judge accused of robbery, would you say "I didn't murder the victim, so it's no big deal"?

If you were up in front of a judge accused of petty theft and somebody rounded what you are accused of to a major felony, you would have grounds for complaining.
Taking a photo with a scumbag who is already dead is pretty minor. More like petty theft. Less like robbery or murder.

A crime remains a crime, EVEN IF someone somewhere has committed an even worse crime.

It cheapens the term "war crime" to use it for petty misbehavior.

The misbehaviour of others doesn't constitute mitigating circumstances, and the US military almost certainly would like to set the bar for the conduct of their personnel somewhat above that of ISIS, even if you personally would not.

Way to twist my words.

 

[Derec]

If that's all he did, his entire team wouldn't be so adamant to never work with him ever again.

Source?

To use a comparison you might understand, this guy is as innocent of murder as OJ Simpson.

The only reason OJ was acquitted was because of racial bias. The reason this guy was acquitted of anything more serious than taking a silly photo is that there were many inconsistencies in witness testimony as to what happened. Apples and aircraft carriers.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

If that's all he did, his entire team wouldn't be so adamant to never work with him ever again.

Source?

He provided it. The Navy Times

The reason this guy was acquitted is that there were many inconsistencies in witness testimony as to what happened.

That doesn’t mean the something in question didn’t happen.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen?

It depends on what the order is, and whom he gives the order to. As long as the illegality of the order is not clear to the officer, it would be followed. Else, I do not know. But again, this does not seem to be that big a risk. The pardons pander to part of his base (though I think they would backfire if Democrats manage to pick a mediocre candidate at least, which they may well not), but that's about it. If you're not concerned about that case, good. But what sort of order do you have in mind?

Suppose Trump ordered the military to arrest one federal court district judge who ruled against him. I believe that Trump is insane enough to do that. What would the military do? How would Trump respond to an officer who refused to follow Trump's illegal order. How would it end?

Officers are trained and instructed to be able to discriminate between legal and illegal orders. An officer, for example, if told to execute prisoners, would be liable for his actions because such an order is not a legal order. As for arresting a judge, I could see a young, inexperienced officer surrounded by equally inexperienced subordinates doing something stupid, but that would have to be approved up the chain. Red flags would start popping.

The danger with Trump is he is so hateful, biased and ignorant, disparaging anyone who disagrees with him. As such he will collect only ignorant loyalists around him, not a balance of informed followers. That can cause problems.

 

[Elixir]

Suppose Trump ordered the military to arrest one federal court district judge who ruled against him. I believe that Trump is insane enough to do that. What would the military do? How would Trump respond to an officer who refused to follow Trump's illegal order. How would it end?

Pistols at 20 paces would be a good way to settle it.

 

[J842P]

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal.

He took a photo next to a dead scumbag. Is that really worthy of the label "war criminal", esp. next to stuff ISIS has been doing on the regular?

That was the only charge that stuck, he was being accused of far graver things.

While I agree the military should have a formal policy against this, on its own, it should probably not be a huge deal.

Also, who cares what ISIS is doing? I hold the American military in much higher regard and and to much higher standard than ISIS, as should anyone, indeed, as does the military itself. Seriously, what a fucking stupid thing to say, Derec.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal.

He took a photo next to a dead scumbag. Is that really worthy of the label "war criminal", esp. next to stuff ISIS has been doing on the regular?

That was the only charge that stuck, he was being accused of far graver things.

While I agree the military should have a formal policy against this, on its own, it should probably not be a huge deal.

Also, who cares what ISIS is doing? I hold the American military in much higher regard and and to much higher standard than ISIS, as should anyone, indeed, as does the military itself. Seriously, what a fucking stupid thing to say, Derec.

Seriously. At what fucking point did "Not quite as bad as ISIS" become the standard of behaviour?

When you're determining whether an action is right or wrong, the question of whether ISIS would do something worse isn't now and never has been part of the equation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are focusing on the example and not the question. Suppose Trump ordered the military to do anything that was clearly illegal. What would happen?

It depends on what the order is, and whom he gives the order to. As long as the illegality of the order is not clear to the officer, it would be followed. Else, I do not know. But again, this does not seem to be that big a risk. The pardons pander to part of his base (though I think they would backfire if Democrats manage to pick a mediocre candidate at least, which they may well not), but that's about it. If you're not concerned about that case, good. But what sort of order do you have in mind?

Suppose Trump ordered the military to arrest one federal court district judge who ruled against him. I believe that Trump is insane enough to do that. What would the military do? How would Trump respond to an officer who refused to follow Trump's illegal order. How would it end?

It would seem very unlikely for the military to arrest judges. The FBI would be a more likely option to go. That would require framing the judge and require some foresight. This administration isn't gifted with foresight. The question becomes if he doesn't concede an election that he lost. The trouble Trump has is he rarely has any loyalty to him through honor, only fear. It'll be hard to make the brass fear him.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Fairly frightening analysis from the fallout of Trump pardoning a war criminal.

He took a photo next to a dead scumbag. Is that really worthy of the label "war criminal", esp. next to stuff ISIS has been doing on the regular?

No. The question is why what should have been a slap on the wrist turned into something much bigger. I suspect he refused to accept being slapped on the wrist over it but I haven't seen anything one way or the other.