Woman in wheelchair forced to crawl into airplane to get to her seat

[credoconsolans]

And do you know every single aspect of that regulation and every single aspect of all other regulations that might impact the logistics of how this regulation influences how and when passengers are boarded the impact on delays? No, you don't. The requirement to "provide entry level boarding" tells us very little, because that is also part of the potential unreasonable regulation I described in which the airline must always providing entry level boarding even when a passenger fails to arrive at the gate by a time required to avoid a major delay in departure. IOW, this or some other regulation might prohibit the airline from having reasonably different cutoff boarding times for people that need a ramp, due to the notably longer time it can take to board such passengers. Thus, when combined with the ramp requirement, one can be in violation of the rule without actually doing anything unethical or unreasonable, and in fact while being more ethical and reasonable than the regulation allows due it failure to consider the welfare of other passengers.

Again, the facts of this case might show unreasonable actions by the airline employee. I simply pointed out that merely being in violation of a disability accommodation regulation does not inform us about whether the action was unreasonable or unethical, because the full context of all relevant regulations and how they constrain what the airline can and cannot do will determine whether a violation was also an unethical and unreasonable act.

I don't care if she arrived 10 seconds before the gate closed. It was a connecting flight, they already knew entry level boarding was required. Her late arrival has no bearing on this.

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She was late due to her connecting flight being late.

But of course, airlines don't really give a shit as to why you're late.

To some extent they do--miss a flight because they made you late and they owe you a flight. Miss it because you were simply late and they have no such obligation.

Sure they "owe" you a flight. The next one on their schedule. If its 12 hours later or the next day, too bad for you.

I understand the airline could have been more helpful, but why did the woman allow herself to be subjected to the humiliation?

Why did she AGREE to crawl, when she could have just said,"Fuck you, I'm not crawling, book me on the next flight"?

You're assuming a later flight wouldn't cause her to miss something that mattered.

Well apparently her pride matters a lot, yet she lowered herself to crawl and she's not even mentioned what Presidential Cabinet meeting she was late to, so as to elicit our sympathy, so I doubt it was something that mattered.

 

[laughing dog]

Well apparently her pride matters a lot, yet she lowered herself to crawl and she's not even mentioned what Presidential Cabinet meeting she was late to, so as to elicit our sympathy, so I doubt it was something that mattered.

What counts is that it mattered to her, not that any of it is relevant to the callous misbehavior of the airline employees.

 

[credoconsolans]

Well apparently her pride matters a lot, yet she lowered herself to crawl and she's not even mentioned what Presidential Cabinet meeting she was late to, so as to elicit our sympathy, so I doubt it was something that mattered.

What counts is that it mattered to her, not that any of it is relevant to the callous misbehavior of the airline employees.

It mattered to her, but that's still not going to make the airport give a shit.

Plenty of people get delayed by other flights, race to the next gate, and when begging to get on their next flight, are told that if they're not first class, they plane is not going to be delayed for them.

Unless someone is dead or dying, which will elicit sympathy and bad PR for the airlines, they don't care if you miss your great aunt Gertie's birthday party which was SO important to you.

 

[laughing dog]

What counts is that it mattered to her, not that any of it is relevant to the callous misbehavior of the airline employees.

It mattered to her, but that's still not going to make the airport give a shit.

Plenty of people get delayed by other flights, race to the next gate, and when begging to get on their next flight, are told that if they're not first class, they plane is not going to be delayed for them.

Unless someone is dead or dying, which will elicit sympathy and bad PR for the airlines, they don't care if you miss your great aunt Gertie's birthday party which was SO important to you.

Why do you think you need to explain the callous and inappropriate behavior of the airline employee? If the woman had been able-bodied, there would have been no problem. If the employee had offered to assist the woman into the plane, there would have been no problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It mattered to her, but that's still not going to make the airport give a shit.

Plenty of people get delayed by other flights, race to the next gate, and when begging to get on their next flight, are told that if they're not first class, they plane is not going to be delayed for them.

Unless someone is dead or dying, which will elicit sympathy and bad PR for the airlines, they don't care if you miss your great aunt Gertie's birthday party which was SO important to you.

Why do you think you need to explain the callous and inappropriate behavior of the airline employee? If the woman had been able-bodied, there would have been no problem. If the employee had offered to assist the woman into the plane, there would have been no problem.

Assisting her into the plane is not an acceptable option for safety reasons.

 

[Juma]

Why do you think you need to explain the callous and inappropriate behavior of the airline employee? If the woman had been able-bodied, there would have been no problem. If the employee had offered to assist the woman into the plane, there would have been no problem.

Assisting her into the plane is not an acceptable option for safety reasons.

What? Who put that into your freaking mind?

 

[RavenSky]

Assisting her into the plane is not an acceptable option for safety reasons.

What? Who put that into your freaking mind?

cue Loren fat-shaming

 

[laughing dog]

Why do you think you need to explain the callous and inappropriate behavior of the airline employee? If the woman had been able-bodied, there would have been no problem. If the employee had offered to assist the woman into the plane, there would have been no problem.

Assisting her into the plane is not an acceptable option for safety reasons.

You really need to explain that one.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Assisting her into the plane is not an acceptable option for safety reasons.

What? Who put that into your freaking mind?

What? Who put that into your freaking mind?

cue Loren fat-shaming

Skinny or fat doesn't matter, it's been many years since they quit carrying wheelchairs up stairs. It's a confined space, someone can make a mistake and have a bad fall.

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Assisting her into the plane is not an acceptable option for safety reasons.

You really need to explain that one.

She obviously can't walk. "Assisting" would mean carrying--not a good idea on air stairs.

 

[laughing dog]

She obviously can't walk. "Assisting" would mean carrying--not a good idea on air stairs.

First, we don't know that she cannot walk at all - only that she cannot stand by herself. So wouldn't that depend on a variety of factors such as whether she can walk with assistance or how many people would have to hold her up or carry her, or other factors?

My guess is that AA employee really wanted to help that woman make her flight, she would have made that flight.

 

[ksen]

Yes we do.

http://khon2.com/2015/05/22/wheelchair-bound-woman-files-lawsuit-after-crawling-into-plane/

And do you know every single aspect of that regulation and every single aspect of all other regulations that might impact the logistics of how this regulation influences how and when passengers are boarded the impact on delays? No, you don't. The requirement to "provide entry level boarding" tells us very little, because that is also part of the potential unreasonable regulation I described in which the airline must always providing entry level boarding even when a passenger fails to arrive at the gate by a time required to avoid a major delay in departure. IOW, this or some other regulation might prohibit the airline from having reasonably different cutoff boarding times for people that need a ramp, due to the notably longer time it can take to board such passengers. Thus, when combined with the ramp requirement, one can be in violation of the rule without actually doing anything unethical or unreasonable, and in fact while being more ethical and reasonable than the regulation allows due it failure to consider the welfare of other passengers.

Again, please address how there wasn't time to move the ramp that was right next to the door but there was time to watch her crawl up the stairs and to her seat.

Again, the facts of this case might show unreasonable actions by the airline employee. I simply pointed out that merely being in violation of a disability accommodation regulation does not inform us about whether the action was unreasonable or unethical, because the full context of all relevant regulations and how they constrain what the airline can and cannot do will determine whether a violation was also an unethical and unreasonable act.

What does unreasonable or unethical have to do with whether or not you broke a law?

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What counts is that it mattered to her, not that any of it is relevant to the callous misbehavior of the airline employees.

It mattered to her, but that's still not going to make the airport give a shit.

You know what will make them give a shit next time? Losing a multimillion dollar lawsuit.

Plenty of people get delayed by other flights, race to the next gate, and when begging to get on their next flight, are told that if they're not first class, they plane is not going to be delayed for them.

Unless someone is dead or dying, which will elicit sympathy and bad PR for the airlines, they don't care if you miss your great aunt Gertie's birthday party which was SO important to you.

This passenger got to her connecting flight inside the boarding window. The plane did not have to be delayed for her.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Skinny or fat doesn't matter, it's been many years since they quit carrying wheelchairs up stairs. It's a confined space, someone can make a mistake and have a bad fall.

R.I.P. Humpty.

Assisting her into the plane is not an acceptable option for safety reasons.

You really need to explain that one.

She obviously can't walk. "Assisting" would mean carrying--not a good idea on air stairs.

Alone... she can't walk alone. Or at least not well.

 

[Togo]

What counts is that it mattered to her, not that any of it is relevant to the callous misbehavior of the airline employees.

It mattered to her, but that's still not going to make the airport give a shit.

You know what will make them give a shit next time? Losing a multimillion dollar lawsuit.

Which is exactly why we have punitive damages in the first place. To make large companies give a

 

[Malintent]

No it doesn't.

Besides . . .

http://khon2.com/2015/06/05/airline...chair-bound-woman-forced-to-crawl-onto-plane/

This was the first time she had flown American Airlines. She says she let them know ahead of time that she would need a ramp and was shocked when they told her it was too late to do it.

“There was a ramp right next to the plane and she was like, ‘Oh, it’s too late,’ so I was like ‘Okay, so we can’t just, the ramp is right there. Can’t you guys just push it right here so I can get on?’ and she’s like, ‘Oh, I’m sorry,” Purcell said.

She claims she called ahead requesting a ramp. There was a ramp right next to the plane.

And that doesn't really answer my question about if there was no time to get a ramp why was there time to wait for her to crawl up the stairs and to her seat?

She may have indeed gotten very poor customer service and the gate agent may have indeed broken with company policy. Workers are not always the saints some people imagine them to be.

No. They were in violation of CFR 14 Part 382 (http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/382short.pdf), a Federal Regulation, not a 'company policy'.

Regarding punitive damages, IF it is found that AA was notified of violations repeatedly, and took no corrective action, then punitive damages can be awarded. Generally, punitive damages are not awarded just because public opinion is in the realm of 'outrage'. It just doesn't work that way. Look at the famous McDonalds hot coffee case. punitive damages were awarded because that particular McDonalds had multiple complaints filed against them for their coffee being too hot. A memo from the main office ordered them to reduce the temperature of their carafes. They failed to do so and someone got hurt. What people don't usually know about that case is that the poor old lady that was burned by the coffee died from her injuries. It was a wrongful death case. the 1 million dollar punitive award was calculated from the revenue McDonalds makes on 1 days worth of coffee sales.
In this case, the sales from 1 days worth of AA's commuter flights around the islands might be a measure for a punitive award, if one is deemed appropriate. That very well could be a few million... I don't know.

 

[dismal]

No it doesn't.

Besides . . .

http://khon2.com/2015/06/05/airline...chair-bound-woman-forced-to-crawl-onto-plane/

This was the first time she had flown American Airlines. She says she let them know ahead of time that she would need a ramp and was shocked when they told her it was too late to do it.

“There was a ramp right next to the plane and she was like, ‘Oh, it’s too late,’ so I was like ‘Okay, so we can’t just, the ramp is right there. Can’t you guys just push it right here so I can get on?’ and she’s like, ‘Oh, I’m sorry,” Purcell said.

She claims she called ahead requesting a ramp. There was a ramp right next to the plane.

And that doesn't really answer my question about if there was no time to get a ramp why was there time to wait for her to crawl up the stairs and to her seat?

She may have indeed gotten very poor customer service and the gate agent may have indeed broken with company policy. Workers are not always the saints some people imagine them to be.

No. They were in violation of CFR 14 Part 382 (http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/382short.pdf), a Federal Regulation, not a 'company policy'.

Who's "they"?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

She obviously can't walk. "Assisting" would mean carrying--not a good idea on air stairs.

First, we don't know that she cannot walk at all - only that she cannot stand by herself. So wouldn't that depend on a variety of factors such as whether she can walk with assistance or how many people would have to hold her up or carry her, or other factors?

My guess is that AA employee really wanted to help that woman make her flight, she would have made that flight.

Air stairs have railings--she could have used them for support if it was merely a problem with standing.

Even then it would not be a safe thing to do to help her on the stairs. It would take a very strong person indeed to avoid a tumble if she stumbled while being helped--and a tumble on stairs is a bad thing.

What you are missing is that the stairs are too narrow for two people to go abreast. A helper would be above or below her, both of which are very poor positions to be helping someone from.

 

[Malintent]

No it doesn't.

Besides . . .

http://khon2.com/2015/06/05/airline...chair-bound-woman-forced-to-crawl-onto-plane/

This was the first time she had flown American Airlines. She says she let them know ahead of time that she would need a ramp and was shocked when they told her it was too late to do it.

“There was a ramp right next to the plane and she was like, ‘Oh, it’s too late,’ so I was like ‘Okay, so we can’t just, the ramp is right there. Can’t you guys just push it right here so I can get on?’ and she’s like, ‘Oh, I’m sorry,” Purcell said.

She claims she called ahead requesting a ramp. There was a ramp right next to the plane.

And that doesn't really answer my question about if there was no time to get a ramp why was there time to wait for her to crawl up the stairs and to her seat?

She may have indeed gotten very poor customer service and the gate agent may have indeed broken with company policy. Workers are not always the saints some people imagine them to be.

No. They were in violation of CFR 14 Part 382 (http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/382short.pdf), a Federal Regulation, not a 'company policy'.

Who's "they"?

American Airlines. It is a corporate entity. Who did you think "they" was a reference to, The Society of Fatties (SoFat)?

 

[dismal]

No it doesn't.

Besides . . .

http://khon2.com/2015/06/05/airline...chair-bound-woman-forced-to-crawl-onto-plane/

This was the first time she had flown American Airlines. She says she let them know ahead of time that she would need a ramp and was shocked when they told her it was too late to do it.

“There was a ramp right next to the plane and she was like, ‘Oh, it’s too late,’ so I was like ‘Okay, so we can’t just, the ramp is right there. Can’t you guys just push it right here so I can get on?’ and she’s like, ‘Oh, I’m sorry,” Purcell said.

She claims she called ahead requesting a ramp. There was a ramp right next to the plane.

And that doesn't really answer my question about if there was no time to get a ramp why was there time to wait for her to crawl up the stairs and to her seat?

She may have indeed gotten very poor customer service and the gate agent may have indeed broken with company policy. Workers are not always the saints some people imagine them to be.

No. They were in violation of CFR 14 Part 382 (http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/382short.pdf), a Federal Regulation, not a 'company policy'.

Who's "they"?

American Airlines. It is a corporate entity. Who did you think "they" was a reference to, The Society of Fatties (SoFat)?

As far as I can tell American Airlines provided all the equipment and personnel that were necessary. This one gate agent elected not to use it.

 

[credoconsolans]

What counts is that it mattered to her, not that any of it is relevant to the callous misbehavior of the airline employees.

It mattered to her, but that's still not going to make the airport give a shit.

You know what will make them give a shit next time? Losing a multimillion dollar lawsuit.

If everyone who was late to a connecting flight due to some foul up sued, we wouldn't have any airlines.

Plenty of people get delayed by other flights, race to the next gate, and when begging to get on their next flight, are told that if they're not first class, the plane is not going to be delayed for them.

Unless someone is dead or dying, which will elicit sympathy and bad PR for the airlines, they don't care if you miss your great aunt Gertie's birthday party which was SO important to you.

This passenger got to her connecting flight inside the boarding window. The plane did not have to be delayed for her.

The point being, the airline doesn't consider what is important to YOU to be important to them.

 

[ksen]

Maybe they'll start considering what's important to federal law.