Woman rapes 14 year old boy, escapes conviction, bemoans she'll be seen as a sex offender anyway

[Politesse]

Personally, I think there is a double-standard against men in this matter. That's my impression. Given the same ages of the two parties, I believe an adult male will be treated more harshly than an adult female. My guess is that the reasons for that (if it's the case) are varied.

Even if that's the case, and I think it may be, the appropriate solution would be to treat female rapes of young men more seriously, and I think that has definitely been the general trend (at least here in the US, I cannot speak to Ireland of course). We have had some high-ish profile cases of this lately, and some films and tv series (such as FX's "A Teacher" which came out this year) raising awareness of the danger and harm faced by young men as a result of damaging conservative beliefs about their sexuality.

Yes, I think, if anything, there have been some changes, and I think they have been in the direction of more equal treatment.

It is in some ways an interesting topic, given how some young people (of any sex or gender) can be sexual earlier than others.

The sexual impulses of young people aren't in question; but it should be the responsibility of adults to give them good guidance on how to understand and express their sexuality safely, not take advantage of their naivete to lure them into abusive and exploitative relationships. And those who indulge in the latter do not deserve to be treated with excessive understanding; they have violated a very important social contract, whatever their reasons, and even disproportionate social consequences would be appropriate considering the severity of the damage such situations can cause.

I think society has been very slow to cast off some outdated ideas about the initiating age of sexual awareness and activity, beliefs that were absurd even before the internet era and definitely are absurd now. We should assume that teengagers know sex exists, and need real information and guidance through this stage of life especially where abuse and safety issues are concerned. My impression has been that Ireland is ahead of the United States at least on the question of age-appropriate sex education, though this is partly because our system is so backwards and inconsistent.

 

[ruby sparks]

Yes, I think, if anything, there have been some changes, and I think they have been in the direction of more equal treatment.

It is in some ways an interesting topic, given how some young people (of any sex or gender) can be sexual earlier than others.

The sexual impulses of young people aren't in question; but it should be the responsibility of adults to give them good guidance on how to understand and express their sexuality safety, not take advantage of their naivete to lure them into abusive and exploitative relationships. And those wh indulge in the latter do not deserve to be treated with excessive understanding; they have violated a very important social contract, whatever their reasons, and even disproportionate social consequences would be appropriate considering the severity of the damage such situations can cause.

I think society has been very slow to cast off some outdated ideas about the age of sexual awareness and activity, beliefs that were absurd even before the internet age and definitely are absurd now. We should assume that teengagers know sex exists, and need real information and guidance through this stage of life. My impression has been that Ireland is ahead of the United States at least on the question of age-appropriate sex education, partly because our system is so backwards and inconsistent.

Sorry. I edited my post.

I am not sure which country is ahead. Ireland is probably behind several mainland northwestern European countries (but then, where isn't) and possibly behind England, but probably not by much, if at all (the UK is not as far forward as you might think). NI is a special case. We are infected with Christian fundies, including in government. I can't imagine NI is not behind even the US, on average. Southern Ireland, once a bastion of RCC-dominated regression, has moved forward very fast in recent decades, and overtaken the North.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do wonder how a jury might have decided if a 32 year old man had invited two 14 year old girls into his home, then took one of them upstairs, stripped off, and mounted her.

It depends on evidence, such as whether the 14 year old girls told the man they were 16 or older when the mounting took place. I just skimmed the link but the crux of the case seems to have been that the boy lied about his age to the woman, I don't think he told her he was only 14.

Correct, although I don't think that should be a defense. I disagree on strict liability but when it's questionable it should be more than just taking a person's word for it.

 

[laughing dog]

Around here, southern Indiana, she would be. Doesn't matter how the older perp justifies it, birthdays are birthdays.
I've got a relative who was convicted of having sex with a 14 y/o when he was 19. He was easy to convict, he never claimed differently. He was "in love", and going to marry her. Which he eventually did. But he still can't pick up his kids at school or anything because he's a sex offender.
Tom

Damn, no "Romeo and Juliet" laws?

I don't think R&J laws cover that big a difference in ages when the younger party is 14.

And, it is possible this occurred before such a law was enacted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Around here, southern Indiana, she would be. Doesn't matter how the older perp justifies it, birthdays are birthdays.
I've got a relative who was convicted of having sex with a 14 y/o when he was 19. He was easy to convict, he never claimed differently. He was "in love", and going to marry her. Which he eventually did. But he still can't pick up his kids at school or anything because he's a sex offender.
Tom

Damn, no "Romeo and Juliet" laws?

Romeo & Juliet laws aren't going to cover 19 with 14.

 

[Politesse]

Yes, I think, if anything, there have been some changes, and I think they have been in the direction of more equal treatment.

It is in some ways an interesting topic, given how some young people (of any sex or gender) can be sexual earlier than others.

The sexual impulses of young people aren't in question; but it should be the responsibility of adults to give them good guidance on how to understand and express their sexuality safety, not take advantage of their naivete to lure them into abusive and exploitative relationships. And those wh indulge in the latter do not deserve to be treated with excessive understanding; they have violated a very important social contract, whatever their reasons, and even disproportionate social consequences would be appropriate considering the severity of the damage such situations can cause.

I think society has been very slow to cast off some outdated ideas about the age of sexual awareness and activity, beliefs that were absurd even before the internet age and definitely are absurd now. We should assume that teengagers know sex exists, and need real information and guidance through this stage of life. My impression has been that Ireland is ahead of the United States at least on the question of age-appropriate sex education, partly because our system is so backwards and inconsistent.

Sorry. I edited my post.

I am not sure which country is ahead. Ireland is probably behind several mainland northwestern European countries (but then, where isn't) and possibly behind England, but probably not by much, if at all (the UK is not as far forward as you might think). NI is a special case. We are infected with Christian fundies, including in government. I can't imagine NI is not behind even the US, on average. Southern Ireland, once a bastion of RCC-dominated regression, has moved forward very fast in recent decades, and overtaken the North.

Yes, I've actually talked about this issue with recent students of both of those national systems on occasion (it comes up as a topic in one of my courses) and the general impression I get is that... even well-intentioned curricula of sex education fail if the adults who are supposed to implement them are either

1. culturally compromised, most often by conservative religious bias but sometimes by other factors like the general taboos surrounding the subject
2. themselves badly undereducated on adolescent sexuality, especially on matters safety, exploitation, and consent
​

And with both of those factors impacting the effectiveness of sex education even when well-designed, things are an absolute dumpster fire in jurisdictions where no sex education is required at all, or follows strict religious guidelines rather than the kind of data-driven parameters a social scientist might approve of.

 

[Metaphor]

I do wonder how a jury might have decided if a 32 year old man had invited two 14 year old girls into his home, then took one of them upstairs, stripped off, and mounted her.

It depends on evidence, such as whether the 14 year old girls told the man they were 16 or older when the mounting took place. I just skimmed the link but the crux of the case seems to have been that the boy lied about his age to the woman, I don't think he told her he was only 14.

In this particular case, the boy claims he did not speak about his age to her.

 

[Jarhyn]

I do wonder how a jury might have decided if a 32 year old man had invited two 14 year old girls into his home, then took one of them upstairs, stripped off, and mounted her.

The important thing is that we leverage the unsuccessfully prosecuted statutory rape of a 14-year-old into some sort of half-assed statement on double standards against men.

See, I'm inclined to view it as a definite double standard that harms children and adolescents below the age of consent. When the interpretation of it being bad or wrong is dependent on the sex of the adult involved, something is wrong with the justice system.

I feel that this woman's claim of "oh he looked older" shouldn't be sufficient. I view as a her getting off on a technicality... but also recognize that the same technicality is unlikely to have been acceptable were the older party male.

So something that comes to mind about this dynamic and particularly where this situation arises from: what are the actual numbers on the resolution of rape cases such as this. Because I am not convinced that the one or two articles posted annually, given the virulent tendency of persons like Metaphor to dig them up and post them the moment they occur, are necessarily common enough to make the declaration of an extant double standard, especially seeing as how the vast majority of rape cases reported by girls and boys are generally just discarded, not followed up on, or worse, responded to with a "she was asking for it" not by the defendant but by a judge...

I absolutely think this case was handled badly, unethically, by the judge. She is a child abuser. She did not do due diligence.

I just am not convinced that the issue is one of gender as much as an issue of judge bias on the subject of rape.

 

[Metaphor]

Sex offender bemoans being considered a sex offender. News at 11.

Meanwhile, if I had a dime for every an adult woman tried to lure me to their home to play video games....??? This was a big problem in the 70s. Teenaged boys being lured with promises of pong.

What I can't find is how this got reported in the first place, which could provide important context on the situation, though in no way negating the actions of the adult.

Reporters attend criminal cases and report on them if they think they have an angle. What would make anything worth reporting?

 

[Metaphor]

I do wonder how a jury might have decided if a 32 year old man had invited two 14 year old girls into his home, then took one of them upstairs, stripped off, and mounted her.

The important thing is that we leverage the unsuccessfully prosecuted statutory rape of a 14-year-old into some sort of half-assed statement on double standards against men.

Question, but is this hypothetical man a really good swimmer?

There are multiple points of interest to this story for me. In particular, much was made of the fact that the boy had a Facebook profile with a fake date of birth. Why the judge allowed it to be entered as evidence is beyond me, because the woman did not know this boy nor had looked at his Facebook profile before she lured him in off the street to rape him.

Another point of interest would be whether statutory rape should be a kind of 'strict liability' offense (as it is in some jurisdictions). If it were, it wouldn't matter if you reasonably believed someone to be of the age of majority, you'd be liable. (I don't think it's actually reasonable for it to be strict liability, but in this particular case I think the woman was recklessly indifferent to his actual age so her 'belief' that he was 16 or older was actually not reasonable).

 

[TSwizzle]

I do wonder how a jury might have decided if a 32 year old man had invited two 14 year old girls into his home, then took one of them upstairs, stripped off, and mounted her.

It depends on evidence, such as whether the 14 year old girls told the man they were 16 or older when the mounting took place. I just skimmed the link but the crux of the case seems to have been that the boy lied about his age to the woman, I don't think he told her he was only 14.

In this particular case, the boy claims he did not speak about his age to her.

I know, but she says he did. And his facebook profile says he was almost 17 or something ? She either made a genuine mistake or she knowingly broke the law. It's just one of these situations that is difficult to prove either way. But she needs watching.

 

[TomC]

I do wonder how a jury might have decided if a 32 year old man had invited two 14 year old girls into his home, then took one of them upstairs, stripped off, and mounted her.

It depends on evidence, such as whether the 14 year old girls told the man they were 16 or older when the mounting took place. I just skimmed the link but the crux of the case seems to have been that the boy lied about his age to the woman, I don't think he told her he was only 14.

In this particular case, the boy claims he did not speak about his age to her.

He's also too young to drive a car or buy a beer.

There's reasons for not believing everything a 14 y/o says and does. Maybe he did claim to be 16. It doesn't matter. He wasn't. She should have known how risky it is to believe whatever a child says because children aren't responsible for their own behavior.

Adults are. She is an adult. He isn't.
Blaming him for tricking her won't get you anywhere with me.
Tom

 

[Gun Nut]

Around here, southern Indiana, she would be. Doesn't matter how the older perp justifies it, birthdays are birthdays.
I've got a relative who was convicted of having sex with a 14 y/o when he was 19. He was easy to convict, he never claimed differently. He was "in love", and going to marry her. Which he eventually did. But he still can't pick up his kids at school or anything because he's a sex offender.
Tom

Damn, no "Romeo and Juliet" laws?

I don't think R&J laws cover that big a difference in ages when the younger party is 14.

15 is the cutoff to consent with someone within 4 years of age, in the state of Colorado *
Romeo and Juliet laws are about age difference when the younger is at least a certain age... not about "love", as the classic play reference implies... In the play, Juliet was 13 years old and Romeo was a bit older.

* When I was dating my now wife many years ago, I took her to the movies. She was in her twenties at the time. It was an R-rated film and when I asked for two tickets, they asked to see her ID (to confirm she was over 17). Her response, without skipping a beat, was, "But I'm accompanied by an adult" (referring to me). I was in my thirties at the time. She loves that story. Me less-so.

 

[ruby sparks]

I was wondering how the case came to light. It says in the (often unreliable) Sun newspaper that when a mutual friend of the boys (a girl) was told, possibly by one or other of the boys, she spilled the beans to the victim's mum.

The Sun also mooted (via reporting something the defendant says she said to the victim beforehand) that he had (she apparently or allegedly thought) already gotten another girl pregnant, but this tidbit was only mentioned in passing.

 

[Emily Lake]

Personally, I think there is a double-standard against men in this matter. That's my impression. Given the same ages of the two parties, I believe an adult male will be treated more harshly than an adult female. My guess is that the reasons for that (if it's the case) are varied.

They would. Just look at the news coverage when a man gets caught molesting a girl, compared to when a woman gets caught molesting a boy. There have also been cases in the U.S. where underage boys were required to pay child support because the perpetrator got pregnant.

He was 14, she was 20.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/
https://lawpublications.barry.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=cflj


Both were underage in the case linked below. She was 16; he was 12.
https://law.justia.com/cases/kansas/supreme-court/1993/67-978-3.html

He was 15, she was 34.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-12-22-9612220045-story.html

That's... bizarre and not okay in my book.

 

[Emily Lake]

I don't think R&J laws cover that big a difference in ages when the younger party is 14.

And, it is possible this occurred before such a law was enacted.

Fair point.

 

[Emily Lake]

The Sun also mooted (via reporting something the defendant says she said to the victim beforehand) that he had (she apparently or allegedly thought) already gotten another girl pregnant, but this tidbit was only mentioned in passing.

I don't see how that could possibly have any relevance to this case.

 

[TomC]

In this particular case, the boy claims he did not speak about his age to her.

I know, but she says he did. And his facebook profile says he was almost 17 or something ? She either made a genuine mistake or she knowingly broke the law. It's just one of these situations that is difficult to prove either way. But she needs watching.

It isn't hard to know whether she broke the law or not!
A quick look at their birth certificates will explain it.

That's the whole point to having rather arbitrary statutes. We have to draw a line somewhere. A clear bright line, when it comes to something as important as child molestation. You can't just keep broadening the line between sexual predators and their victims.
Tom

 

[ruby sparks]

The Sun also mooted (via reporting something the defendant says she said to the victim beforehand) that he had (she apparently or allegedly thought) already gotten another girl pregnant, but this tidbit was only mentioned in passing.

I don't see how that could possibly have any relevance to this case.

Well, if it were true, then he would not have been the virgin he claimed to be. As such, it would therefore be possible that (a) he wanted and enjoyed the sex and/or (b) that he lied about his age.

I'm totally speculating, obviously, and with caution, because I got the items from The Sun.

 

[TSwizzle]

In this particular case, the boy claims he did not speak about his age to her.

I know, but she says he did. And his facebook profile says he was almost 17 or something ? She either made a genuine mistake or she knowingly broke the law. It's just one of these situations that is difficult to prove either way. But she needs watching.

It isn't hard to know whether she broke the law or not!

She was cleared of any wrong doing on the basis that the jury believed her when she said she thought the lad was 16+. I think you would really need to see the lad to make your own mind up as to whether that is plausible or not.