Women don't lie about rape, Pennsylvania edition

[Swammerdami]

Obviously accusations of rape can be very hard to prove, and very hard to disprove. MANY rapes go unreported simply because victims are aware that THEY, rather than the rapist, may become targets of police and journalists. I can offer no panacea for those problems either.
. . .
BUT I am disappointed -- though not surprised -- to see some Infidels here implicitly ally with rapists. I ask them to watch the documentary Victim/Suspect and the miniseries Unbelievable (an excellent documentary of police detective work), both on Netflix. Women get coerced into falsely retracting their accusations, and then sometimes are jailed for false accusation....

Who here is "implicitly allying with rapists"?

I dunno. Perhaps some of those worried about false accusations but who have no intention of watching either of the mind-opening Netflix documentaries I mentioned.

 

[thebeave]

Obviously accusations of rape can be very hard to prove, and very hard to disprove. MANY rapes go unreported simply because victims are aware that THEY, rather than the rapist, may become targets of police and journalists. I can offer no panacea for those problems either.
. . .
BUT I am disappointed -- though not surprised -- to see some Infidels here implicitly ally with rapists. I ask them to watch the documentary Victim/Suspect and the miniseries Unbelievable (an excellent documentary of police detective work), both on Netflix. Women get coerced into falsely retracting their accusations, and then sometimes are jailed for false accusation....

Who here is "implicitly allying with rapists"?

I dunno. Perhaps some of those worried about false accusations but who have no intention of watching either of the mind-opening Netflix documentaries I mentioned.

What do you mean you don't know? You said you were disappointed to see some infidels who were allying with rapists.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Benjamin Franklin wrote ""it is better a hundred guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer." William Gladstone said something similar, but changed the ratio from 100 to 10. A poll of average American opinions suggests a ratio closer to 1. I do not know the "proper" figure, although I think Franklin's 100 to be much too high.

I'm more towards Gladstone than Franklin.

Obviously accusations of rape can be very hard to prove, and very hard to disprove. MANY rapes go unreported simply because victims are aware that THEY, rather than the rapist, may become targets of police and journalists. I can offer no panacea for those problems either.

BUT I am disappointed -- though not surprised -- to see some Infidels here implicitly ally with rapists. I ask them to watch the documentary Victim/Suspect and the miniseries Unbelievable (an excellent documentary of police detective work), both on Netflix. Women get coerced into falsely retracting their accusations, and then sometimes are jailed for false accusation.

I see nobody taking the side of the rapist. Rather, we are taking the side of innocent until proven guilty. The woman's word is not the word of god, any more than anyone else reporting a crime is taken as the word of god. It should not be automatically dismissed, it should not be automatically accepted. And when the accuser and accused lead very separate lives it's perfectly reasonable to specify to keep away. However, when they lead related lives (typical for a college situation) it's a substantial punishment to say to keep away. And there should not be punishment without a determination of guilt.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Also, the Police just taking an alleged victims word for it doesn't help the victim at all, as there isn't much of a case. They need to actually investigate the claims to demonstrate her accusation is accurate. You know, courts and all.

The police should be investigating, but both to prove or disprove.

No. To ascertain whether a crime was committed and the facts of the case.

Same thing, different words.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why didn't they do a rape test kit on the woman who made the claim? Am I missing something? Wouldn't that have proven that the man she claimed had raped her was innocent? The problem is that these test kits are rarely used. Maybe if they were used all the time, it would help, but it appears to me as if law enforcement doesn't take women's claims of rape seriously. Statistically it's more likely that a victim of rape doesn't even report the rape due to the bias against women.

I do agree there's a big problem with not processing rape kits. The Republicans love to have the visible face of law enforcement: cops, but they aren't so interested in all the things that aren't so visible. Makes sense for the party of "If a person is innocent of a crime, then he is not a suspect."

 

[Toni]

Also, the Police just taking an alleged victims word for it doesn't help the victim at all, as there isn't much of a case. They need to actually investigate the claims to demonstrate her accusation is accurate. You know, courts and all.

The police should be investigating, but both to prove or disprove.

No. To ascertain whether a crime was committed and the facts of the case.

Same thing, different words.

No. An investigation is to investigate what facts there are pertaining to a situation/case/allegation. Not to prove or disprove anything. As soon as you introduce prove or disprove, you are introducing bias. Whether it is to prove an allegation or to disprove an allegation. Investigations are supposed to be impartial and driven by evidence, not conjecture.

 

[RVonse]

And just a reminder: this is the reason that most people---male and female--do not report rapes. Because they fear being disbelieved, thought to be sick, disturbed, vindictive, whatever but definitely lying. Which of course allows rapists to keep on raping.

This woman was definitely lying. Should she not be prosecuted just because that may deter other women from reporting rapes? Going further, should police refrain from actually investigating women's claims and just take them at face value just to make women reporting rapes more comfortable?

Police absolutely should take seriously claims from people who claim to be victims of crimes, especially of violent crimes.

Do you not realize that boys and men are also rape victims? It’s even more under-reported that girls/women reporting rape? For very similar but not 100% congruent reasons. Male victims of rape also must fear being thought to be gay, if they are actually straight.

Shame, humiliation, guilt, fear of how they will be perceived —if their allegations are even taken seriously, the extremely daunting legal process, going through the trauma of reporting, collection of evidence which may or may not be preserved or analyzed, the trauma of a trial, should there be one—and of course the fear of seeing their attacker in their community or on the courtroom, and the terrible terrible assumptions made if a conviction does not occur—or even if it does. And of course the real issue: Why didn’t you fight him off? Are you sure you didn’t really want it? Are you just angry because he didn’t call you after?

Imagine if that were you. Seriously: How would you feel? Would you ever tell anybody? How scared would you be? For how long?

Do I think that people who deliberately falsely accuse others of a crime should be punished? Of course. But please not only people who make false allegations of rape.

It happens everyday in the penitentiary but neither you or anyone else in the world gives a shit.....because they are men.

 

[RVonse]

As an aside, I suspect there are magnitudes mire instances of rapists lying about their innocence than there are rape victims lying about their rape. No mention of that from our resident social justice warrior. Hmmmm.

Whataboutism.

Just an interesting observation.

Whataboutism. And false, besides. An order of magnitude is typically 10x. Thus "magnitudes" must be at least 100x. That would require the false report rate to be under 1%.

Are you here to play word games or to engage in meaningful discussion?

Yeah, this is definitely a word game he has introduced.

I observe you had used the word "magnitudes" as opposed to the phrase "orders of magnitude." Statistics are showing single digit percents of women lying about sexual assault. Most perpetrators are going to outright lie about it in their defense, making the cases where rapist lies near 100%. Is it 90% or some other number? Maybe, but it's up there. In consideration of the vast numbers of sexual assaults or rapes, it does make lies by rapists magnitudes more than lies by alleged victims.

There is also an "orders of magnitude" difference in the penalty for rape versus the penalty for lying about rape. Maybe that has something to do with who has more incentive to lie.

 

[Toni]

And just a reminder: this is the reason that most people---male and female--do not report rapes. Because they fear being disbelieved, thought to be sick, disturbed, vindictive, whatever but definitely lying. Which of course allows rapists to keep on raping.

This woman was definitely lying. Should she not be prosecuted just because that may deter other women from reporting rapes? Going further, should police refrain from actually investigating women's claims and just take them at face value just to make women reporting rapes more comfortable?

Police absolutely should take seriously claims from people who claim to be victims of crimes, especially of violent crimes.

Do you not realize that boys and men are also rape victims? It’s even more under-reported that girls/women reporting rape? For very similar but not 100% congruent reasons. Male victims of rape also must fear being thought to be gay, if they are actually straight.

Shame, humiliation, guilt, fear of how they will be perceived —if their allegations are even taken seriously, the extremely daunting legal process, going through the trauma of reporting, collection of evidence which may or may not be preserved or analyzed, the trauma of a trial, should there be one—and of course the fear of seeing their attacker in their community or on the courtroom, and the terrible terrible assumptions made if a conviction does not occur—or even if it does. And of course the real issue: Why didn’t you fight him off? Are you sure you didn’t really want it? Are you just angry because he didn’t call you after?

Imagine if that were you. Seriously: How would you feel? Would you ever tell anybody? How scared would you be? For how long?

Do I think that people who deliberately falsely accuse others of a crime should be punished? Of course. But please not only people who make false allegations of rape.

It happens everyday in the penitentiary but neither you or anyone else in the world gives a shit.....because they are men.

Absolutely untrue. Sexual assault happens in prison to male and female persons as well as trans and non-binary individuals and gay people. It's horrible and it needs to be stopped.

No one and I mean NO PERSON ever deserves to be raped. It should not be considered just part of the penal system/penalty for having been found guilty of a crime.

 

[laughing dog]

And just a reminder: this is the reason that most people---male and female--do not report rapes. Because they fear being disbelieved, thought to be sick, disturbed, vindictive, whatever but definitely lying. Which of course allows rapists to keep on raping.

This woman was definitely lying. Should she not be prosecuted just because that may deter other women from reporting rapes? Going further, should police refrain from actually investigating women's claims and just take them at face value just to make women reporting rapes more comfortable?

Police absolutely should take seriously claims from people who claim to be victims of crimes, especially of violent crimes.

Do you not realize that boys and men are also rape victims? It’s even more under-reported that girls/women reporting rape? For very similar but not 100% congruent reasons. Male victims of rape also must fear being thought to be gay, if they are actually straight.

Shame, humiliation, guilt, fear of how they will be perceived —if their allegations are even taken seriously, the extremely daunting legal process, going through the trauma of reporting, collection of evidence which may or may not be preserved or analyzed, the trauma of a trial, should there be one—and of course the fear of seeing their attacker in their community or on the courtroom, and the terrible terrible assumptions made if a conviction does not occur—or even if it does. And of course the real issue: Why didn’t you fight him off? Are you sure you didn’t really want it? Are you just angry because he didn’t call you after?

Imagine if that were you. Seriously: How would you feel? Would you ever tell anybody? How scared would you be? For how long?

Do I think that people who deliberately falsely accuse others of a crime should be punished? Of course. But please not only people who make false allegations of rape.

It happens everyday in the penitentiary but neither you or anyone else in the world gives a shit.....because they are men.

What happens every day in the penitentiary to men (and only men, since women apparently aren’t in penitentiaries) that people don’t care about?

 

[RVonse]

What happens every day in the penitentiary to men (and only men, since women apparently aren’t in penitentiaries) that people don’t care about?

Rape. And society at at large could care less about it.

Yes there are some women in jail but it is a bit more unusual and difficult for a woman to rape another woman. But if a woman could be raped in jail there would be all kinds of people (especially the feminists) looking into to it.

 

[Toni]

What happens every day in the penitentiary to men (and only men, since women apparently aren’t in penitentiaries) that people don’t care about?

Rape. And society at at large could care less about it.

Yes there are some women in jail but it is a bit more unusual and difficult for a woman to rape another woman. But if a woman could be raped in jail there would be all kinds of people (especially the feminists) looking into to it.

Not as unusual as you would think.

I'm not certain whether your are incredibly naive or willfully ignorant but women are often raped by guards and other males who work or are in women's prisons.

 

[laughing dog]

What happens every day in the penitentiary to men (and only men, since women apparently aren’t in penitentiaries) that people don’t care about?

Rape. And society at at large could care less about it.

I agree that society at large appears to not cate.

Yes there are some women in jail but it is a bit more unusual and difficult for a woman to rape another woman. But if a woman could be raped in jail there would be all kinds of people (especially the feminists) looking into to it.

It is not more difficult for a woman to rape another woman. And as Toni pointed out, women prisoners are much more likely to raped by prison guards, etc…

 

[Arctish]

As an aside, I suspect there are magnitudes mire instances of rapists lying about their innocence than there are rape victims lying about their rape. No mention of that from our resident social justice warrior. Hmmmm.

Whataboutism.

Just an interesting observation.

Whataboutism. And false, besides. An order of magnitude is typically 10x. Thus "magnitudes" must be at least 100x. That would require the false report rate to be under 1%.

Are you here to play word games or to engage in meaningful discussion?

Yeah, this is definitely a word game he has introduced.

I observe you had used the word "magnitudes" as opposed to the phrase "orders of magnitude." Statistics are showing single digit percents of women lying about sexual assault. Most perpetrators are going to outright lie about it in their defense, making the cases where rapist lies near 100%. Is it 90% or some other number? Maybe, but it's up there. In consideration of the vast numbers of sexual assaults or rapes, it does make lies by rapists magnitudes more than lies by alleged victims.

There is also an "orders of magnitude" difference in the penalty for rape versus the penalty for lying about rape. Maybe that has something to do with who has more incentive to lie.

The person who has the most incentive to lie is the one who committed the crime. I have never heard of a rapist being prosecuted for lying about whether he/she committed a rape, although I have heard of plea deals being offered to serial rapists if they confess so the State doesn't have to prosecute each crime separately.

 

[TSwizzle]

I'm not certain whether your are incredibly naive or willfully ignorant but women are often raped by guards and other males who work or are in women's prisons.

Do you mean male prisoners who are housed in women's prisons because they claim to be female?

 

[Toni]

I'm not certain whether your are incredibly naive or willfully ignorant but women are often raped by guards and other males who work or are in women's prisons.

Do you mean male prisoners who are housed in women's prisons because they claim to be female?

No, I mean by men who serve as personnel in women’s prisons, or who have occasion to be in the prison.

 

[TSwizzle]

I'm not certain whether your are incredibly naive or willfully ignorant but women are often raped by guards and other males who work or are in women's prisons.

Do you mean male prisoners who are housed in women's prisons because they claim to be female?

No, I mean by men who serve as personnel in women’s prisons, or who have occasion to be in the prison.

Oh, well you should add males housed in women's prisons who claim to be female and go on to rape women to your list.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

As we all know men never lie about anything...?

 

[TomC]

Oh, well you should add males housed in women's prisons who claim to be female and go on to rape women to your list.

It was on her list.
For some reason you decided to focus on that teeny tiny bit of the issue, and kinda blew off the main issues. Male prison staff, of various sorts.

Looks more like you grinding an ideological axe than anything substantial.
Tom

 

[Tigers!]

As we all know men never lie about anything...?

Men only lie about size(s).