Women's teams want equal pay

[Toni]

Correct. I am not a soccer player.



But you can't body check against the boards like in hockey, right? Can't tackle the opponents like in football? I get that there is probably more direct physical contact than in say Gof, but then Golf also usually has women divided out. Why? Or has that changed now? I don't follow Golf hardly at all.

If a woman can hang with the men physically then they should totally be allowed to at least try out.

Absolutely. Is there a rule against it? Have any women tried it at the highest levels of competition?

Soccer has a great deal more physical contact than basketball or baseball. Many recreational leagues have coed teams for soccer and I suspect also for basketball. In the US, softball is often co-ed and where not co-ed, is generally a woman's sport as opposed to baseball.

As it stands now, women's professional soccer players in the US do not have access to the same facilities, or training as male soccer players. Certainly they do not have the same or even close to it budget for promotions. According to the USSF financial statements, women's soccer generates more revenue than men's soccer in the US.

 

[cycomiko]

But you can't body check against the boards like in hockey, right? Can't tackle the opponents like in football? I get that there is probably more direct physical contact than in say Gof, but then Golf also usually has women divided out. Why? Or has that changed now? I don't follow Golf hardly at all.

Players get checked into the boards all the time in indoor soccer. If the contact is shoulder to shoulder and is deemed "fair" by the ref, it's all legal. You can tackled people in football but it's not a free-for-all. My point was that soccer is more similar to football and hockey than it is to golf or baseball. I don't have any idea why golf has the women and men separated. I'm assuming it's because it's a "good ole boys" game and it's just always been that way.

A Is there a rule against it? Have any women tried it at the highest levels of competition?

Good question. I'm not sure if it's against any rule for a woman to try out for a men's team. I bet FIFA has rules against it but I've never bothered to look it up.

I have no problem with trans athletes in sports. It only becomes a problem when there is extreme physical contact (like in fighting sports) or arbitrary divisions of gendered teams. If a male-to-female transexual person wanted to play on the women's soccer team, would you oppose that? How about a team of mostly male-to-female transexual people to play in the women's division?

I also don't agree that trans in sports isn't on point to gendered teams. I think it is illustrative of problems with gendered teams. Also, what of non-gendered or gender binary or all those other genders the SJWs usually speak up for? Do they all cease to exist when it comes to gendered sports?

When I said it was "beside the current point" I meant that trans athletics is beside the point of a gender pay gap. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I view those as two different issues.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Based on what I've read, the comparisons are tricky. More money is taken in through sponsorship than tournaments. But the WNT definitely are competitive nationally with the MNT when it comes to domestic bucks. The domestic leagues, though, women aren't paid much because the leagues haven't had much success. The MLS has survived based on a pyramid scheme of continually adding new franchises at higher and higher rates to balance the books. Decades in, the MLS has still not won a CONCACAF Champions League.

Good points. It really is difficult to compare but within the USSF I think the women should be equally paid if not paid more. Tournament winnings and bonuses for making the final 23 player squad aren't so easy until the world catches up to us in enthusiasm for the women's game. They're getting there.

MLS has some odd rules that seem to hold it back. Revenue sharing, TAM/GAM, salary caps, etc. It works in some ways but not in others. Luckily the sport has grown in popularity in recent years. I just wish more American fans could stomach a system of relegation/promotion and we could do away with the playoff system.

That is the dream, but investors aren't splashing hundreds of millions for a franchise that can drop to a second league. Relegation/promotion while an awesome concept is a DOA in the US / MLS System. I remember owners in the NASL trying to con their $5 million franchises into the MLS. Didn't work.

 

[Toni]

When I said it was "beside the current point" I meant that trans athletics is beside the point of a gender pay gap. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I view those as two different issues.

You have been very clear. I had zero problem understanding you.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Correct. I am not a soccer player.



But you can't body check against the boards like in hockey, right? Can't tackle the opponents like in football? I get that there is probably more direct physical contact than in say Gof, but then Golf also usually has women divided out. Why? Or has that changed now? I don't follow Golf hardly at all.

If a woman can hang with the men physically then they should totally be allowed to at least try out.

Absolutely. Is there a rule against it? Have any women tried it at the highest levels of competition?

Soccer has a great deal more physical contact than basketball or baseball. Many recreational leagues have coed teams for soccer and I suspect also for basketball. In the US, softball is often co-ed and where not co-ed, is generally a woman's sport as opposed to baseball.

As it stands now, women's professional soccer players in the US do not have access to the same facilities, or training as male soccer players. Certainly they do not have the same or even close to it budget for promotions. According to the USSF financial statements, women's soccer generates more revenue than men's soccer in the US.

The US WNT is definitely competitive with the US MNT when it comes to USSF finances. So the WNT deserve at least similar benefits as the MNT. Sure, the MNT can win much more money, but they aren't going to do so with the firing of Klinsman, for a long while.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Actors typically command different pay for appearing in the same film, based on their ‘star power! —and gender. Typically men earn a great deal more then their female counterparts. There’s a lot of gender discrimination at work in all aspects of that industry. It’s telling that it was necessary to bring up porn in order to find an example of women being paid more than men ‘for the same job.’ Also telling that women as porn stars is brought into this discussion. Some people do really see women in only one role.

sports / movies... it's all revenue-based upon viewership. Women get the same proportion of potential box office sales as men do... in Hollywood, porn, and athletics.
You are blaming the corporation when you should be blaming the customers for not being willing to pay more for what they view as less.

This is not accurate for USSF.

 

[Toni]

Actors typically command different pay for appearing in the same film, based on their ‘star power! —and gender. Typically men earn a great deal more then their female counterparts. There’s a lot of gender discrimination at work in all aspects of that industry. It’s telling that it was necessary to bring up porn in order to find an example of women being paid more than men ‘for the same job.’ Also telling that women as porn stars is brought into this discussion. Some people do really see women in only one role.

sports / movies... it's all revenue-based upon viewership. Women get the same proportion of potential box office sales as men do... in Hollywood, porn, and athletics.
You are blaming the corporation when you should be blaming the customers for not being willing to pay more for what they view as less.

You're not even close to accurate. https://www.forbes.com/sites/maddie...now-about-the-hollywood-pay-gap/#2f10ebbb5cf1

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It’s telling that it was necessary to bring up porn in order to find an example of women being paid more than men ‘for the same job.’ Also telling that women as porn stars is brought into this discussion. Some people do really see women in only one role.

Is porn really the only "same job" line of thought you can think of where women get paid more on average than men? Are you one of the people you speak of who only see women in one role?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Actors typically command different pay for appearing in the same film, based on their ‘star power! —and gender. Typically men earn a great deal more then their female counterparts. There’s a lot of gender discrimination at work in all aspects of that industry. It’s telling that it was necessary to bring up porn in order to find an example of women being paid more than men ‘for the same job.’ Also telling that women as porn stars is brought into this discussion. Some people do really see women in only one role.

sports / movies... it's all revenue-based upon viewership. Women get the same proportion of potential box office sales as men do... in Hollywood, porn, and athletics.
You are blaming the corporation when you should be blaming the customers for not being willing to pay more for what they view as less.

Yes and no. That's how it should be, but that's not always how it is. In WWE for example, the last Wrestlemania had Becky Lynch vs Ronda Rousey vs Charlotte in the main event, but these women still earn less on their contracts than most of the male wrestlers. So that's a legitimate gripe. If women's soccer brings in more money than men's soccer, then it makes sense for those women to be paid more as well. But then there remains the question of why the genders are separated and if men/women can compete in the opposite gendered league. I see some very starkly competing social justice issues in it.

 

[TSwizzle]

With their complete lack of success on the international stage, it looks to me like the USA men's team is grossly overpaid. Cut their money and lob some of it towards the women's team.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Absolutely. Is there a rule against it? Have any women tried it at the highest levels of competition?

As it stands now, women's professional soccer players in the US do not have access to the same facilities, or training as male soccer players. Certainly they do not have the same or even close to it budget for promotions.

They do if they are allowed to compete in the division that pays more and has these facilities and training (the "men's division"; which isn't a men's division if it allows women).

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Here's a decent breakdown of the difference in pay:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/08/are-us-womens-soccer-players-really-earning-less-than-men/?utm_term=.225d0064b90e

It looks to me like the main difference is that the men's salary is mainly performance based, while the women's is a base salary plus performance pay. With the latter, one would expect less of an increase based on good performance since a lot of what would be there is tied into the base salary.

Also, the FIFA payouts are based on international popularity of the two leagues, where the men's teams seem to be vastly more popular than the women's, so you'd expect a similarly vast difference in the pay scales.

 

[Toni]

Here's a decent breakdown of the difference in pay:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/08/are-us-womens-soccer-players-really-earning-less-than-men/?utm_term=.225d0064b90e

It looks to me like the main difference is that the men's salary is mainly performance based, while the women's is a base salary plus performance pay. With the latter, one would expect less of an increase based on good performance since a lot of what would be there is tied into the base salary.

Also, the FIFA payouts are based on international popularity of the two leagues, where the men's teams seem to be vastly more popular than the women's, so you'd expect a similarly vast difference in the pay scales.

It's hard to argue that men's salary is performance based vs women's salary given their records.

In the US, winning teams are more popular than losing teams. I know a lot of male soccer fans who follow women's team games much more closely than they do MLS games. IT's extremely difficult to argue that women's teams aren't as popular as are men's teams given that womens soccer is not given the funding to develop a following the way that the mens' league has.

 

[Toni]

Absolutely. Is there a rule against it? Have any women tried it at the highest levels of competition?

As it stands now, women's professional soccer players in the US do not have access to the same facilities, or training as male soccer players. Certainly they do not have the same or even close to it budget for promotions.

They do if they are allowed to compete in the division that pays more and has these facilities and training (the "men's division"; which isn't a men's division if it allows women).

Or they could fund and promote women's soccer on parity with men's soccer.

 

[Gun Nut]

Actors typically command different pay for appearing in the same film, based on their ‘star power! —and gender. Typically men earn a great deal more then their female counterparts. There’s a lot of gender discrimination at work in all aspects of that industry. It’s telling that it was necessary to bring up porn in order to find an example of women being paid more than men ‘for the same job.’ Also telling that women as porn stars is brought into this discussion. Some people do really see women in only one role.

sports / movies... it's all revenue-based upon viewership. Women get the same proportion of potential box office sales as men do... in Hollywood, porn, and athletics.
You are blaming the corporation when you should be blaming the customers for not being willing to pay more for what they view as less.

You're not even close to accurate. https://www.forbes.com/sites/maddie...now-about-the-hollywood-pay-gap/#2f10ebbb5cf1

4 year old article using 10 year old data.

 

[Toni]

You're not even close to accurate. https://www.forbes.com/sites/maddie...now-about-the-hollywood-pay-gap/#2f10ebbb5cf1

4 year old article using 10 year old data.

Pretty recent article: https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/06/19/us-womens-soccer-games-now-generate-more-revenue-than-mens.html

Dated 6/19/19. Before the women won their 4th World Cup. Men didn’t even qualify.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If the US men's team played against the US women's team, who do you think would win?

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

The women's team isn't just after pay equity, which is a tough thread to unravel. They're also looking for equity in travel, training facilities, etc.

 

[Derec]

I agree with you Jolly. Sometimes (in fact a lot of times) doing the same job does not equate to equal pay in the free market capitalistic system.

But it's not really the same job. They are not playing in the same tournaments and against the same opponents.
You might as well be arguing that minor league baseball players should be paid the same as major league ones because they both play baseball.

Taken to the extreme. A male porno star makes far far less than his companion female porn star

It's ok to pay men less. </feminism>

 

[Derec]

Why should they have to PLAY with men?

For an honest comparison of their athletic prowess.

They are playing the same game

And Gwinnett Gladiators are playing the same game as St. Louis Blues. Do you think their players make the same money?

and playing it BETTER.

If US men's soccer team played US women's soccer team, do you really think the women would win?
Yes, the women's team is far more successful in their ecosystem. But that ecosystem is much smaller and generates far less revenue than men's soccer.