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Would it be moral to kill Hitler in 1932?

DrZoidberg

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Today we have a similar situation. Trump is pretty much running on the same platform as Hitler did. He also seems to be about as crazy and narcissistic. Also... he might actually win the American election.

The question is, if killing Hitler would be moral, does that mean it would moral to kill Trump now.

Thoughts?
 
Today we have a similar situation. Trump is pretty much running on the same platform as Hitler did. He also seems to be about as crazy and narcissistic. Also... he might actually win the American election.

The question is, if killing Hitler would be moral, does that mean it would moral to kill Trump now.

Thoughts?

Certainty in their future actions and the consequences makes all the difference. The morality of killing Hitler in 1932 is not because of his ideas but only because we know with hindsight what he did and the consequences. Ideas and words don't translate reliably in to specific actions and consequences, so it is not moral to kill based on ideas and words. It wouldn't have been moral to kill Hitler in 1932, unless you were a time traveler from the future. Similarly, it is not moral to kill Trump now.
 
There's another scenario:

The Dead Zone, by Stephen King.

Johnny Smith awakens from a five-year coma after his car accident and discovers that he can see people’s futures and pasts when he touches them. Many consider his talent a gift; Johnny feels cursed. His fiancée married another man during his coma and people clamor for him to solve their problems.

When Johnny has a disturbing vision after he shakes the hand of an ambitious and amoral politician, he must decide if he should take drastic action to change the future.
 
There wasn't anything particularly remarkable about Hitler as a person. He was a common psychological type that took advantage of the social turmoil he found himself in.

If we killed all the potential tyrants and genocides, well -- I shudder to think.
 
If Hitler was to blame for the subsequent rise of Naziism to power, then killing him might have been the right choice; but he didn't act alone, and some other Nazi might have proven even more dangerous - someone with the same (lack of) principles, but with a cooler head, might have beaten the Soviet Union and won WWII.

This idea has been extensively explored in fiction.

I suspect that Trump, like Hitler, is a product of the mood of his supporters. If he wasn't there, someone similar would be, and if he was assassinated, he might be replaced by someone just as bad, or even worse, who could use the assassination as a major lever to obtain power. If Trump were shot dead tomorrow, I could see that leading to a Republican President being elected in November. And who knows who that might be, or what the effects would be over the next couple of decades?
 
If Hitler was to blame for the subsequent rise of Naziism to power, then killing him might have been the right choice; but he didn't act alone, and some other Nazi might have proven even more dangerous - someone with the same (lack of) principles, but with a cooler head, might have beaten the Soviet Union and won WWII.

This idea has been extensively explored in fiction.

I suspect that Trump, like Hitler, is a product of the mood of his supporters. If he wasn't there, someone similar would be, and if he was assassinated, he might be replaced by someone just as bad, or even worse, who could use the assassination as a major lever to obtain power. If Trump were shot dead tomorrow, I could see that leading to a Republican President being elected in November. And who knows who that might be, or what the effects would be over the next couple of decades?

I think that speaks to the pragmatic wisdom of killing Hitler more than to the morality. Regardless of what anyone else would have done, what Hitler did fully warrants his killing. Thus, if one were certain he would do those things, it would be moral (possibly even morally required) to kill him.

As for the pragmatic question, the level of brutality of the Third Reich under Hitler was so extreme that it improbable that any replacement would have tried or succeeded in being causing so much inhumanity. The wise bet would be that his absence would have resulted in something less extreme and thus it would be wise and moral to kill him (again presuming valid knowledge of what he would wind up doing).
 
This may sound harsh, but I'm sorta glad nobody killed Hitler in 1932. That would have meant a drastic change in the timeline (no WWII), and as a result its pretty much a guarantee I wouldn't be here right now. When people ask me if I could go back in time, would I kill baby Hitler, I always preface my answer with, "Can I say yes AND get to be me in the here and now?"

Yes, I'm a selfish bastard.:diablotin:
 
Today we have a similar situation. Trump is pretty much running on the same platform as Hitler did. He also seems to be about as crazy and narcissistic. Also... he might actually win the American election.

The question is, if killing Hitler would be moral, does that mean it would moral to kill Trump now.

Thoughts?

No! Trump is nothing like Hitler because Germany had an imperial monarchy before the Wiemar republic, so when Hitler rose to power, Germany had only been a democracy for a short time, therefore Trump is completely different from Hitler! You liberals are so stupid for always jumping at the chance to compare Trump to Hitler! What is wrong with you?

OK, that's paraphrased, but that is more or less an actual argument that was leveled at me recently, and it is about par for the course for the kinds of arguments I get from Republican voters these days.

By the way, did you know that Melania Trump's recent plagiarism is evidence that her husband is brilliant and liberals are stupid?

Also, only crazy people criticize Trump.

Sigh.

Anyway, no. It would not be a good idea to murder Trump. Trump is a symptom, not the disease. The Republican party spent decades and billions turning Republican voters into something that made Trump possible in the first place, and if there was no Trump, then there would probably be someone else. If you killed Trump right now, he would become a martyr for the cause, and someone else would jump at the hand to grab the reigns and claim Trump's legacy.

Same thing with Hitler. Hitler wasn't the only one angry about the way Germany had been treated and was far from the only one blaming Germany's problems on Jews, communists, and the rest of the world. If you went back in time and murdered Hitler, the movement would simply have had a different figurehead. Worse, if the person who replaced Hitler was more competent, he might not have been stupid enough to try and start a war on two fronts at the same time. WW2 would have turned out very differently had Hitler honored his treaty with the Soviet Union.
 
killing Hitler in 1932 may seem like a good idea, but how would you know that you are not causing an even greater problem by doing so? For example, for the coalition of the willing, removing Saddam probably seemed like a good idea at the time, bring on the Arab Spring and we'll all live happily ever after....
 
Today we have a similar situation. Trump is pretty much running on the same platform as Hitler did. He also seems to be about as crazy and narcissistic. Also... he might actually win the American election.

The question is, if killing Hitler would be moral, does that mean it would moral to kill Trump now.

Thoughts?
Look, I'm no fan of Trump, but comparing him to Hitler is hyperbolic at best.
 
Today we have a similar situation. Trump is pretty much running on the same platform as Hitler did. He also seems to be about as crazy and narcissistic. Also... he might actually win the American election.

The question is, if killing Hitler would be moral, does that mean it would moral to kill Trump now.

Thoughts?
Look, I'm no fan of Trump, but comparing him to Hitler is hyperbolic at best.

I'm listening?
 
Today we have a similar situation. Trump is pretty much running on the same platform as Hitler did. He also seems to be about as crazy and narcissistic. Also... he might actually win the American election.

The question is, if killing Hitler would be moral, does that mean it would moral to kill Trump now.

Thoughts?

No! Trump is nothing like Hitler because Germany had an imperial monarchy before the Wiemar republic, so when Hitler rose to power, Germany had only been a democracy for a short time, therefore Trump is completely different from Hitler! You liberals are so stupid for always jumping at the chance to compare Trump to Hitler! What is wrong with you?

Ok, fine Germany had only been democratic for a short while, so therefore Hitler's rhetoric should be different from Trump's. But it isn't. How do you explain that? USA's long democratic tradition doesn't seem to protect it from voting for a Hitler. Hitler wasn't voted in on a platform that opposed democracy. He was just a populist blaming the darkies.

OK, that's paraphrased, but that is more or less an actual argument that was leveled at me recently, and it is about par for the course for the kinds of arguments I get from Republican voters these days.

By the way, did you know that Melania Trump's recent plagiarism is evidence that her husband is brilliant and liberals are stupid?

This is one of the things that I hate about USA. There's so much wrong with the fact that the presidents wife matters a damn in the election. I don't know how it is in the rest of Europe, but in Sweden barely anybody knows the name of the prime ministers wife, or even how she looks. It should be a non-factor. If it's the politics of the candidate that counts. But the fact that the wife matters, that means that Americans are voting for something different entirely. I'm not sure what that is... but it can't be a good thing.

Same thing with Hitler. Hitler wasn't the only one angry about the way Germany had been treated and was far from the only one blaming Germany's problems on Jews, communists, and the rest of the world. If you went back in time and murdered Hitler, the movement would simply have had a different figurehead. Worse, if the person who replaced Hitler was more competent, he might not have been stupid enough to try and start a war on two fronts at the same time. WW2 would have turned out very differently had Hitler honored his treaty with the Soviet Union.

That's a thing I think is hilarious/depressing about the film Valkyrie. Von Stauffenberg was exactly that. A more competent Nazi leader. But none the less a Nazi. In the film he is portrayed as having moral objections about the stuff Hitler was doing. Ehe... no he didn't. He just thought Hitler was an inefficient leader.

Man in the High Castle gave me a history boner, throughout.
 
Killing Hitler then might have set off a much more vicious version of Crystalnacht, with possible outside intervention, so it might have been a mixed blessing. Mr Trump has definitely been selected, so that might be a bit different. The difficulty is, I think, that, Trump or no Trump, the Republicans are on a trajectory that must lead to their dictatorship or civil war, though I suppose it might employ one of those bang-bangs usefully for once. On the whole, though, I think I'd be against it.
 
killing Hitler in 1932 may seem like a good idea, but how would you know that you are not causing an even greater problem by doing so? For example, for the coalition of the willing, removing Saddam probably seemed like a good idea at the time, bring on the Arab Spring and we'll all live happily ever after....
We might also mention Iran, Syria and a dozen or more Latin American countries where the US set up puppet regimes. They are resented, they become despotic, bad things happen.
Right wing movements have a history of bad outcomes, as well.
 
killing Hitler in 1932 may seem like a good idea, but how would you know that you are not causing an even greater problem by doing so? For example, for the coalition of the willing, removing Saddam probably seemed like a good idea at the time, bring on the Arab Spring and we'll all live happily ever after....
We might also mention Iran, Syria and a dozen or more Latin American countries where the US set up puppet regimes. They are resented, they become despotic, bad things happen.
Right wing movements have a history of bad outcomes, as well.

...and left wing movements don't? The personal freedom vs authoritarian dichotomy isn't on the right vs left scale. It's entirely separate. The problem is authoritarianism... and nothing else.
 
The ball was already rolling by the time Hitler came into power. Hitler was just the guy who jumped out in front of the angry mob and yelled "Charge!" Even if Hitler never existed, that angry mob would still have been there just begging for someone to give them someone to blame for their problems and to offer a solution, and they would not have cared how awful the solution was.

If you wanted to prevent WW2 with a time machine, the thing to do would not be to murder Hitler, but to go back to the negotiations for the  Treaty of Versailles and yell at all the diplomats negotiating the treaty. Better still, go back in time and prevent WW1. That way, you prevent two world wars, as the ending of WW1 made the start of WW2 all but inevitable.

You could, I suppose, go back in time and prevent the murder of archduke Ferdinand by those Serbian nationalist crazies, but that wouldn't be the best action either. That murder was just the spark that lit the fire. That was the act that started the ball rolling, but the network of alliances created the hill that the ball rolled down in the first place, and there were a series of heartbreaking diplomatic blunders that prevented anyone from stopping the ball before it became a world war. There are a large number of small changes in history during that series of diplomatic blunders that could have prevented the whole thing.

If you had a time machine and wanted to prevent the history we know, going after that series of diplomatic blunders would be the best way. If the diplomats succeeded in stopping the ball from rolling, then everyone might have stopped and noticed the inherent danger of that network of alliances, that the alliances created a giant hill for the ball to roll down. If you just stopped the Serbians, then the "hill" would have remained and WW1 might still have happened as a result of some other event.

But now we're in the land of wild speculation. What would actually have been the consequences of preventing WW1? While overall, I'm quite confident this would have been a good thing (or at least much less bad), I have no idea what the negative repercussions would have been. One of the effects of WW1 was to smash the power of the aristocracy. What would our history have looked like if the European aristocracy remained in power? I haven't a clue. I really don't. What would history have looked like if the Ottoman empire remained intact? I have no idea. What would history have looked like if Prussia still existed? I dunno.

History is what mathematicians would call an "unstable system." Very small changes in the input values can cause very large changes in the output values.
 
It seems to me that one form of aristocracy is just replaced with another form of aristocracy, elitism by any other name.

Really? Do you really think that the landed nobility of old is equivalent to the educated elites of the post-industrial world? Back in the day the nobility were engaged in a kind of continuous terror of the population in order to keep them under their thumb. Today the people have to be persuaded to live on their knees. There's a big difference. Before the breaking point was when the peasantry rose up in revolt because the pain of life was too great. Today the breaking point is when the hoi polloi vote for the next flavor of the day.

Having a limited menu to chose from isn't equivalent to not getting into the restaurant at all.
 
It seems to me that one form of aristocracy is just replaced with another form of aristocracy, elitism by any other name.

Really? Do you really think that the landed nobility of old is equivalent to the educated elites of the post-industrial world? Back in the day the nobility were engaged in a kind of continuous terror of the population in order to keep them under their thumb. Today the people have to be persuaded to live on their knees. There's a big difference. Before the breaking point was when the peasantry rose up in revolt because the pain of life was too great. Today the breaking point is when the hoi polloi vote for the next flavor of the day.

Having a limited menu to chose from isn't equivalent to not getting into the restaurant at all.

I'd say that the stinking rich who run your plutocracy were immensely worse than any landed nobility since Ghengiz Khan's, whose robber chiefs they resemble in all but that those were at least efficient. By the way. 'hoi' means 'the'. Hoi polloi are the many.
 
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