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Would Pence be worse than Trump?

southernhybrid

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I have thought about this for awhile, and I'm not really sure which one would be worse, but Frank Bruni wrote an editorial this morning that suggests that Pence would be worse than Trump. I have strong doubts that Pence would be elected for two terms if he took over for Trump. In fact, I doubt he would be elected for one term. My son lives in Indy and Pence was very unpopular there and he was a very ineffective governor. But, Bruni does bring up some good points. So, do any of you feel that Pence would be more harmful than Trump? Does anyone here think that Pence could be elected to two terms, as Bruni suggests?


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/28/opinion/sunday/mike-pence-holy-terror.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

There are problems with impeaching Donald Trump. A big one is the holy terror waiting in the wings.

That would be Mike Pence, who mirrors the boss more than you realize. He’s also self-infatuated. Also a bigot. Also a liar. Also cruel.

To that brimming potpourri he adds two ingredients that Trump doesn’t genuinely possess: the conviction that he’s on a mission from God and a determination to mold the entire nation in the shape of his own faith, a regressive, repressive version of Christianity. Trade Trump for Pence and you go from kleptocracy to theocracy.

That’s the takeaway from a forthcoming book by the journalists Michael D’Antonio, who previously wrote “The Truth About Trump,” and Peter Eisner. It’s titled “The Shadow President: The Truth About Mike Pence,” it will be published on Aug. 28 and it’s the most thorough examination of the vice president’s background to date.

I got an advance look at it, along with a first interview about it with D’Antonio, and while it has a mostly measured tone, it presents an entirely damning portrait of Pence. You’ve seen his colors before, but not so vividly and in this detail.

There's a lot more info in the link.
 
They are both catastrophically awful in different ways.

A pence presidency would be a trip back to the dark ages and the Inquisition. That's why they both have to go down in disgrace as a result of the Mueller probe. President Ryan is a sad possibility, but he's sane compared with those two.....and he'd be controllable by Congress.
 
The problem with these kinds of “but then we get Pence” is that it fundamentally omits the conditions that would obtain after such a momentous event as impeachment and removal of a sitting President. That sea change that such an event would necessarily create renders Pence a dead President. Not just a lame duck, but dead. No mandate at all; nothing he says or does will ever be acted upon or implemented; etc.

Being the only public reminder of the devestation that was the Trump traitor, he would have no choice but to simply ride out the “Trump presidency”—as Ford did with Nixon—and only then might he attempt to start a Pence presidency in 2020 after having gone through the normal election process.
 
I'm getting old. I remember that being the joke with George HW Bush... that the dimwit from religious conservative from Indiana would become President if anything happened to Bush.

Not as much a joke in this case, but I don't foresee many paths to armageddon with Pence as President. As things stand, Sessions is putting a Christian discrimination task force together... and Trump is President.

So no... I don't think Pence would be worse overall. He'd be bad for America, but not as bad as Trump. I mean Trump just takes being bad to an uncomfortable level.
 
The problem with these kinds of “but then we get Pence” is that it fundamentally omits the conditions that would obtain after such a momentous event as impeachment and removal of a sitting President. That sea change that such an event would necessarily create renders Pence a dead President. Not just a lame duck, but dead. No mandate at all; nothing he says or does will ever be acted upon or implemented; etc.

Being the only public reminder of the devestation that was the Trump traitor, he would have no choice but to simply ride out the “Trump presidency”—as Ford did with Nixon—and only then might he attempt to start a Pence presidency in 2020 after having gone through the normal election process.
Aw heck. So Watergate happens, Ford pardons Nixon and America is pissed. Elect a Democrat for four years and forget it ever happened in 1980. Kind of like 2006, when the Dems took large majorities in large part due to Republican fatigue from Katrina and Iraq... and a sex scandal.

Obama signs health care legislation and it is the biggest electoral massacre in nation history just four years after the Dems took control back after the awfulness that was 4 years of Republican leadership.
 
I think he'd be able to get away with pretty much anything and the country would praise him for it.

I remember after Rob Ford was mayor here in Toronto, the media was so effusive with praise for the new guy due to the way he showed up for work before noon and came to the office sober. Nobody really cared what it was he was doing because that was overshadowed by the fact that he wasn't a ranting coked-up stoner while he was doing it.

It would be the same with Pence. All the news reports would be about how great he is due to how he spent the day working diligently in his office instead of sitting in his room in his bathrobe tweeting while watching Fox News and they'd gloss over the fact that what he was working on was shuddering all the abortion clinics in the country and outlawing homosexuality. The character of a Pence presidency would be such a refreshing change that people wouldn't pay much attention to the content of a Pence presidency.
 
Pence was selected by a man we now know to be a Russian asset whose trial is about to start. I suspect that if Trump goes down, Pence goes down with him.

Edit/Addendum[ent]mdash[/ent]I deeply apologize for implying that treason is a bad thing that could result in prison time. I hope I have not hurt anyone's feelings.
 
I think he'd be able to get away with pretty much anything and the country would praise him for it.

I remember after Rob Ford was mayor here in Toronto, the media was so effusive with praise for the new guy due to the way he showed up for work before noon and came to the office sober. Nobody really cared what it was he was doing because that was overshadowed by the fact that he wasn't a ranting coked-up stoner while he was doing it.

It would be the same with Pence. All the news reports would be about how great he is due to how he spent the day working diligently in his office instead of sitting in his room in his bathrobe tweeting while watching Fox News and they'd gloss over the fact that what he was working on was shuddering all the abortion clinics in the country and outlawing homosexuality. The character of a Pence presidency would be such a refreshing change that people wouldn't pay much attention to the content of a Pence presidency.

Welllll, if Trump is impeached it's because there's a Dem Congress, so he wouldn't get much (if anything) done anyhow.
 
I think he'd be able to get away with pretty much anything and the country would praise him for it.

I remember after Rob Ford was mayor here in Toronto, the media was so effusive with praise for the new guy due to the way he showed up for work before noon and came to the office sober. Nobody really cared what it was he was doing because that was overshadowed by the fact that he wasn't a ranting coked-up stoner while he was doing it.

It would be the same with Pence. All the news reports would be about how great he is due to how he spent the day working diligently in his office instead of sitting in his room in his bathrobe tweeting while watching Fox News and they'd gloss over the fact that what he was working on was shuddering all the abortion clinics in the country and outlawing homosexuality. The character of a Pence presidency would be such a refreshing change that people wouldn't pay much attention to the content of a Pence presidency.

Shuttering* [/pedantic]
 
Just remember that no matter how bad things are, they could always be worse. And probably will be.

Yes, they will.

Bill Clinton pulled the Democratic party far to the right, taking them from center-left to center-right.

This means that since Reagan, the economic elites have been waging class warfare on everyone who ins't rich for around a half century now, and the best we can hope for is the chance to vote between Reaganomics and Reaganomics Lite. After a half century, the middle class keeps shrinking and the ranks of the working poor keep growing.

Not only does this mean more and more families have more and more financial difficulties, but it also means that each year the total disposable income of the population goes down relative to the cost of living, which drives more and more businesses out of business, which only serves to accelerate the problem.

Plenty of scientific studies show that most Trump voters were voting for racism, but economic inequality is the accelerant that can turn this fire into something that can burn the country down. More than likely, Dems will win in 2016 and 2020. Then what? A few social policies will become less horrible. Maybe the kids in those toddler cages will be reunited with their families.

But the class war against the non-rich will keep going. It'll be less vigorous than it is when Republicans are in charge, but it'll still be there making things worse, which will make voters even more desperate and even more likely to make bad decisions at election time.

If we don't turn this ship around and go back to the way things were between FDR and Reagan, then this story ends only one way: with another race to the bottom such as we saw in the Great Depression. That has 3 possible outcomes:
  • The nation falls to fascism. Eventually, the dictators decide the rich people are a threat to his power and kills them.
  • The nation falls to communism. Wealthy people are stripped of all property and possibly killed.
  • We get to find out what the American version of the French Revolution looks like. Wealthy and powerful people get killed by angry mobs. Then their families, anyone who ever worked for them, then the real madness starts and even the accusers get executed. Fun for all!
  • (Option 4: the magic of the free market kicks in and causes things to get better instead of worse, because making the economic elites even more wealthy will cause them to trickle good jobs all over us.)

Just kidding. Option four is a demented fantasy.
 
Just remember that no matter how bad things are, they could always be worse. And probably will be.

Yes, they will.

Bill Clinton pulled the Democratic party far to the right, taking them from center-left to center-right.

By what metric? And just to be very clear from the outset, I am a progressive (always have been) and consider myself to be squarely left of center. I qualify this because what follows is typically knee-jerked to mean I’m espousing a veiled conservative narrative and it’s not true, which is also part of the problem.

We on the left in particular have a “if you’re not with me, you’re against me” mentality, it’s just not always as obvious as it is with the right. So, caveat establshed.

This means that since Reagan, the economic elites have been waging class warfare on everyone who ins't rich for around a half century now

There has never been a time when certain members of the economic elite have not been waging class warfare. But just because a “war” is being waged does not necessarily mean anything substantive is happening as a result. It’s all in the wording. The big buzz word ever since Occupy Wall Street got monetized has been “inequality.” The trouble being that there is no such thing as “equality” as a measure of an open-ended system of wealth. It’s simply not an applicable concept; not for political or ideological reasons, but because that’s not how you measure something open-ended that anyone can be a part of if they so choose.

Iow, there is no wealth “pie.” That image itself is a fundamental misinterpretation (meant only for illustrative purposes no less) that has lead many to think that “wealth” is a finite construct and someone is keeping them from their birth-right slice, which simply isn’t true.

Anyone can choose to amass wealth. It’s not a mysterious boys-only club. Of course you first need a job—i.e., money—so obviously there is a minimum requirement just like there are minimum requirements in all forms of human endeavors, but the more important qualification is discipline to save that money and even then we’re only talking about a small percentage of every dollar.

Yes, that can be difficult. No one is arguing other, but it’s not rocket science or the result of “warfare.” This rhetorical victim-mentality is one of the biggest problems within the progressive left, imo, and it pervades everything, such that no one can ever have a conversation about the realities of our system.

Corporations/economic elites and the whole notion of us vs. them is just the left’s boogeyman mythology and its based entirely on overlooking basic generational trends. This recent rehash with the Sanders fraud is a perfect example. The oft-repeated (and fundamentally misleading) slogan of the “99%” was incorrectly derived from the work of two prominent economists (Saez and Zucman).

In a nut? We—the middle-class punk rock/new wave Gen X and the last of the Boomers—said fuck the establishment (ie, fuck daddy) and “eat the rich” in the eighties (from a nevertheless cozy/poseur privileged position), while the preppies and our slightly older brothers were embracing junk bonds and everything Wall Street. Just picture The Wedding Singer.

Surprise, surprise, the asswipes in dayglo suits and Red Dawn haircuts got exponentially rich over the years due to compound interest, while we who worshipped John Cusack and seriously believed we’d be in the Dead by 27 club did not. That period—the mid-eighties to the nineties—was the pebble in the pond that looking back on after all the compound interest and reinvestment of the past three or four decades is what ALL of the current economic sky-is-falling bullshit stems from and the irony of it all is that at the same time Sanders etal were looking at the past and proclaiming it high tide the people he was telling it to—the Millennials—had already been rectifying the disparity by being much more frugal with their earnings than their parents (us, the fuck ups) were.

Iow, Sanders was pointing at a bullet that was fired forty years prior—and aimed, ironically at his own head—as a clarion bell to people who already dodged the bullet and corrected the course for their own forty years hence futures.

After a half century, the middle class keeps shrinking and the ranks of the working poor keep growing.

Another canard that needs to go. No offense, it just so many of us on the left keep repeating these same misnomers. The “middle class is shrinking” trope fails to take into account that the reason it had been shrinking is because people have been moving up the economic ladder, not down and the notion of the “working poor” growing is simply not true. Wage stagnation is still a problem—the last of the holdovers from the effects of the 2008 collapse—but the poor poor (the unfortunately ever present percentage of people that for purely statistical reasons will always exist) has remained where it has pretty much always been for decades (10-15%), which, btw, is still far better than anything like it had been historically.

It still sucks, of course, and we need to keep working on it always, but it’s a statistical certainty that it will always exist. As to the “working poor”—which itself is a misnomer, because what we mean by that is on the cusp of being poor poor, but really they’re struggling to stretch their earnings to compete with inflation and the high costs of medical care, etc—they are in a rut primarily due to the fact that a global economy means massive competition on a scale no country has ever had to deal with previously and we’re in a transition stage (will be for several more decades, most likely).

Iow, the scale of human endeavors—thanks to the exponential powers of technology—no longer take generations to unfurl as they did historically. Within each generation now there are sub generations, where a teenager can be outpaced by his or her younger sibling.

That’s never happened before. Gen Z are now the major influencers of the family budget and in regard to almost everything the family will buy, not just stupid kid shit like xboxes or whatever the fuck kids waste money on today. Why? Because they were born with a smartphone in their hands.

Think about that for a second. Our parents used to respect and turn to their “elders” for sage advice. Our generation said “fuck you” to our parents and grandparents (ideologically for the most part) and stood alone. Our children’s/grandchildren’s generations (and their sub generations) are now the ones we turn to and their parents turn to for sage advice.

In the course of just two generations the entire tribal hierarchy has flipped.

The point of which in regard to “working poor” is that the entire social category of blue collar/unskilled labor is pretty much gone in the US and we have shifted instead to skilled labor, which means those among the “working poor” must adapt and become skilled or die.

Which, again, is why Democrats are so important, because if we don’t have solvent social programs in place to help those who simply will not make it in the new paradigm, that impacts everything. But that’s ALWAYS been the fight. Nothing has changed, but, again, it’s less a social construct as it is an environmental construct; a side effect/fallout of circumstances in a changing/evolving global awakening kind of zeitgeisty way.

In short, it’s an inevitable result of transition, not an orchestrated global conspiracy (any more than there are always such attempts). But there are no better alternatives. As Sanders’ own bullshit demonstrated, without economic elites, there can’t be any funding for social programs on massive scales.

If we don't turn this ship around and go back to the way things were between FDR and Reagen
Can’t happen, because the reason it started to change under Reagan (with Japan leading the way) and then more fully under Clinton is because Clinton understood that the market was/had already shifted to a global one, not a local or national one. That genie can’t be put back in the bottle as we are seeing abundant evidence of in everything Putin Trump is attempting.

Clinton realized that America did two things; manage businesses and manufacture goods. Globalization meant we would no longer be able to manufacture goods, so that meant the only way we—America—could remain competitive was to shift focus on being global managers. It was either that, or economic collapse and let consumerism—that had already impacted us because of Japan/globalization—be our only fate.

He literally had no choice. And that hasn’t gone away. There is no way America can ever be a dominate labor force unless and until conditions here get so bad that workers will gladly accept $1 an hour as a minimum wage. Iow, never going to happen. So while it’s certainly fashionable to shittalk Corporate structure (and I detest it with every fiber of my being), it isn’t a cabal or the result of the illuminatti; it’s the result of social evolution.

Of course there are those trying to influence how that evolution benefits them the most. That’s why Democrats exist; to reign them in and regulate them to the best of our flawed system’s ability. But there is no other option as you pointed out. We’re still waaaaaaaaaaay too primitive a species (on the order of centuries) to get past our greed and petty need for competition.

Unless and until the promises of nano-technology can be obtained and even then there will always be those who will seek to manipulate things in their favor. That’s just the power-dynamic at play and short of genetic engineering or actual warfare, there is no way to remove whatever the fuck that is within us. It can only evolve out or, more likely, never leave. Yes, there are other countries that have managed to implement stronger social contracts and I’m all in favor of fighting to implement them here, but, again, that is ALWAYS on the Democrat’s platform.

Keep in mind that the Republicans are not only depleting in numbers, they have to commit massive election fraud to stay in power.

If the House (at the very least) falls in November, then that’s pretty much it for what we know of as the Republican Party in its current endgame iteration. If we lose, then it only means they get one more round, because no matter what there will be no way for them to win the WH in 2020. They didn’t have the numbers in 2016 and Trump has done nothing but lose numbers ever since.

ETA: Here’s an interesting piece that’s a bit tangential, but applicable: Remember that study saying America is an oligarchy? 3 rebuttals say it's wrong.

Tl;dr snippet:

Bashir and Branham/Soroka/Wlezien find that on these 185 bills, the rich got their preferred outcome 53 percent of the time and the middle class got what they wanted 47 percent of the time. The difference between the two is not statistically significant. And there are some funny examples in the list of middle-class victories. For instance, the middle class got what they wanted on public financing of elections: in all three 1990s surveys included in the Gilens data, they opposed it, while the rich favor it. That matches up with more recent research showing that wealthy people are more supportive of public election funding.

So it's hard to say definitively, based on this data, that the rich are getting what they want more than the middle class. And it's hard to claim, as Gilens and Page do, that "ordinary citizens get what they want from government only when they happen to agree with elites or interest groups that are really calling the shots." Even when they disagree with elites, ordinary citizens get what they want about half the time.

Branham, Soroka, and Wlezien also look at which specific issues spur disagreement: Do they fall down on ideological lines? Sort of, but not dramatically so. The authors find that the middle class got 26 liberal policy wins (either a bill they supported passing or one they opposed getting blocked), 20 conservative wins, and 29 ideologically neutral wins. The rich got 28 liberal wins, 26 conservative wins, and 37 neutral wins. The rich's wins are slightly more conservative on average, but not hugely so.

Okay, but maybe those conservative wins for the rich were all on issues that mattered most to the rich. Maybe the middle class wins occasionally on social issues, but the rich succeed in preventing redistribution and other economic policies they don't like.

Again, not really. The researchers found the rich’s win rate for economic issues where there's disagreement is 57.1 percent, compared with 51.1 percent for social issues. There's a difference, but not a robust one. "The win rates for the two issue types are not statistically different from one another," Branham, Soroka, and Wlezien conclude.

They also looked at the views of the poor — those at the 10th percentile of the income scale. Here, too, there's lots of agreement. The poor, middle class, and rich agree on 80.2 percent of policies. But here they find more evidence for differences in income-based representation. Bills supported just by the rich but not the poor or middle class passed 38.5 percent of the time, and those supported by just the middle class passed 37.5 percent. But policies supported by the poor and no one else passed a mere 18.6 percent of the time. "These results suggest that the rich and middle are effective at blocking policies that the poor want," the authors conclude.

Bashir's paper prods at the Gilens data even more and finds a number of holes. Bashir concludes that strong support from the middle class is about as good a predictor of a policy being adopted as strong support from the rich. "In the original data set, change is enacted 47 percent of the time that median-income Americans favor it at a rate of 80 percent or more," Bashir writes. "Yet change is enacted 52 percent of the time that elites favor it at that rate."

And the two groups fare roughly as poorly when interest groups are pitted against them: "The rich get their favored outcome despite the combined opposition of [interest groups and the middle] at a rate of 32 percent; meanwhile, average Americans’ favored outcome occurs 30 percent of the time that they face combined opposition from interest groups and the wealthy. "

That's from Vox, btw. Much more in the piece.
 
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Iow, there is no wealth “pie.” That image itself is a fundamental misinterpretation (meant only for illustrative purposes no less) that has lead many to think that “wealth” is a finite construct and someone is keeping them from their birth-right slice, which simply isn’t true.
A classic excuse for evading the issue of the distribution of wealth. Wealth is produced collectively in most cases, so distributing the produced wealth becomes a serious problem. Capitalism apologists seem to think that all produced wealth ought to be distributed to the top of wealth-production organizations, with those at the top then deciding how much everybody else gets. There are other ways that those at the top can increase their wealth at everybody else's expense, like exempting themselves from taxes and ensuring that the only way to survive or get ahead is to go heavily into debt.

Anyone can choose to amass wealth.
Yes, one can save money, but that is difficult on a low income. Not everybody has an upper-middle-class income or an upper-class income, and with a low income, living expenses can easily eat it up, leaving little money for saving.

I will concede that there are ways of saving money that are not very widely used.

Being homeless, for instance. One does not have to pay rent or mortgage payments or utilities. So should everybody sell their homes and become bums in the streets?

Or refusing medical care. Just wait until the comeback of infectious diseases on a massive scale.

As Sanders’ own bullshit demonstrated, without economic elites, there can’t be any funding for social programs on massive scales.
That's because the economic elites are the ones with the money. Also, "I hate Bernie Sanders" isn't much of an argument.
 
A classic excuse for evading the issue of the distribution of wealth.

I'm "evading" nothing.

Wealth is produced collectively in most cases, so distributing the produced wealth becomes a serious problem.

By that you mean wages, not "wealth." Unless you are talking about a company's stock, which is normally public and/or given to employees as parts of bonuses and the like.

Capitalism apologists...

:rolleyes: See, it's exactly that kind of "us vs them" bullshit I was talking about. We can't ever have nice things because any time "weatlh" is ever mentioned in these places it degrades instantly into ad hominem.

There are other ways that those at the top can increase their wealth at everybody else's expense, like exempting themselves from taxes and ensuring that the only way to survive or get ahead is to go heavily into debt.

If by "getting ahead" you mean keeping up with the Jones’ you're correct.

Yes, one can save money, but that is difficult on a low income.

As I stated.

Not everybody has an upper-middle-class income or an upper-class income

We all know this. We don't have to reinvent the wheel every fucking time anyone wants to have an adult conversation about how our economy operates.

, and with a low income, living expenses can easily eat it up, leaving little money for saving.

Yeah. It's tough. No one is arguing differently. And other people have it easier. Welcome to Earth.

I will concede that there are ways of saving money that are not very widely used.

Being homeless...

FFS. Anyone wonder now why I had to put in that ridiculous caveat? Did I also rape your mother and steal your baby's candy?

As Sanders’ own bullshit demonstrated, without economic elites, there can’t be any funding for social programs on massive scales.
That's because the economic elites are the ones with the money.

Right. So where do you think the money would come from to fund any social programs? Realistically and that hasn’t ALREADY been encoded into the Democratic platform. Sanders spewed a lot of magical unicorns, but even he always gave himself an out by conceding he’d never be able to implement any of his programs due to Republicans.
 
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Welllll, if Trump is impeached it's because there's a Dem Congress, so he wouldn't get much (if anything) done anyhow.
President's get a lot done by setting policy for the entire executive branch. Just look at the recent record at the EPA or ICE for clear examples of what a President can get done without Congress's help or approval.
 
lpetrich said:
Wealth is produced collectively in most cases, so distributing the produced wealth becomes a serious problem.
By that you mean wages, not "wealth." Unless you are talking about a company's stock, which is normally public and/or given to employees as parts of bonuses and the like.
So only financial thingies count as wealth?

Capitalism apologists...
:rolleyes: See, it's exactly that kind of "us vs them" bullshit I was talking about.
Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

Yes, one can save money, but that is difficult on a low income.
As I stated.
Then one shouldn't pick on low-income people for not being able to save big nest eggs.

Not everybody has an upper-middle-class income or an upper-class income
We all know this. We don't have to reinvent the wheel every fucking time anyone wants to have an adult conversation about how our economy operates.
That would not be apparent from the repeated insinuation that people who don't save very much are all people with big incomes who squander most of it in unnecessary spending.

, and with a low income, living expenses can easily eat it up, leaving little money for saving.
Yeah. It's tough. No one is arguing differently. And other people have it easier. Welcome to Earth.
How is it that I think that I'm reading some right winger?
 
How come people often say "Hey, life is tough, and you need to suck it up and move on"; But almost nobody ever says "Hey, life is tough, and we need to suck it up and move on"?

It always sucks to be you. It rarely sucks to be us.

If your life is hard, then you should have just done what I did. I worked hard; saved a percentage of every paycheck; had white, middle class parents; lived in a supportive family; got a good education; didn't get sick or have chronically sick family members to support; grew up in the right part of town; networked with wealthy people at family gatherings from my early teens; and had a trust fund to pay for my university education. As you foolishly chose not to do those things, you only have yourself to blame.
 
So only financial thingies count as wealth?

Do you not understand what “wealth” is as opposed to salary/income? So you’re talking out your ass about something you know shit about.

Capitalism apologists...
:rolleyes: See, it's exactly that kind of "us vs them" bullshit I was talking about.
Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

Piercing counter argument.

Yes, one can save money, but that is difficult on a low income.
As I stated.
Then one shouldn't pick on low-income people for not being able to save big nest eggs.

Then it’s a good thing I didn’t do that. Are you done stuffing strawmen yet?

Not everybody has an upper-middle-class income or an upper-class income
We all know this. We don't have to reinvent the wheel every fucking time anyone wants to have an adult conversation about how our economy operates.
That would not be apparent from the repeated insinuation that people who don't save very much are all people with big incomes who squander most of it in unnecessary spending.

What the fuck are you on? I did no such thing.

, and with a low income, living expenses can easily eat it up, leaving little money for saving.
Yeah. It's tough. No one is arguing differently. And other people have it easier. Welcome to Earth.
How is it that I think that I'm reading some right winger?

Because you are projecting and are easily triggered and think that anyone who dares to remove the emotional nonsense from the discussion is somehow axiomatically an “apologist”? Everyone knows it sucks to be poor. No one—NO ONE—is saying it doesn’t. What the fuck has that got to do with anything I posted? Let me repeat that, anything I posted, not what your emotional projection filters think it appears I posted?
 
How come people often say "Hey, life is tough, and you need to suck it up and move on"; But almost nobody ever says "Hey, life is tough, and we need to suck it up and move on"?

It always sucks to be you. It rarely sucks to be us.

If your life is hard, then you should have just done what I did. I worked hard; saved a percentage of every paycheck; had white, middle class parents; lived in a supportive family; got a good education; didn't get sick or have chronically sick family members to support; grew up in the right part of town; networked with wealthy people at family gatherings from my early teens; and had a trust fund to pay for my university education. As you foolishly chose not to do those things, you only have yourself to blame.

Yeah, again, nothing whatsoever to do with anything I posted or anything I was arguing, so you and LP have fun with your emotional appeals to whatever the fuck you’re talking about.
 
How come people often say "Hey, life is tough, and you need to suck it up and move on"; But almost nobody ever says "Hey, life is tough, and we need to suck it up and move on"?

It always sucks to be you. It rarely sucks to be us.

If your life is hard, then you should have just done what I did. I worked hard; saved a percentage of every paycheck; had white, middle class parents; lived in a supportive family; got a good education; didn't get sick or have chronically sick family members to support; grew up in the right part of town; networked with wealthy people at family gatherings from my early teens; and had a trust fund to pay for my university education. As you foolishly chose not to do those things, you only have yourself to blame.

Yeah, again, nothing whatsoever to do with anything I posted or anything I was arguing, so you and LP have fun with your emotional appeals to whatever the fuck you’re talking about.

Well, as it wasn't directed at you, it didn't really need to have a lot to do with what you were saying.

Are you suggesting that this is NOT how a great many comfortably well off people behave?
 
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