WTF GOP

[boneyard bill]

When "when the black Southern majority was still Republican," it would have been a very small percentage of the black population. There was no time when the number of southern black Republicans would have been a significant addition to the GOP, at least in the 20th century.

Are you kidding? The majority of blacks lived in the South then and probably still do. Moreover, in the 1966 elections, Republicans won a Senate seat in Tennessee, and Governorships in Arkansas and Maryland and added Virginia in 1967 by running anti-segregationist candidates against segregationist Democrats. They did it because they carried the newly-enfranchised black voters. They nearly won Georgia as well. Orval Faubus did not run for re-election in Arkansas in 1966 because he knew that he would lose because of the black vote. Harry Byrd, Jr. ran for re-election in Virginia as an independent because he knew that he could not win the Democrat primary because of the black vote. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 completely changed Southern politics. That much is undeniable.

 

[boneyard bill]

Your point is very much mistaken and you are sounding suspiciously as though you believe Republicans to be spineless, witless idiots without any will of their own: victims of the evil machinations of Democrats.

Racists have flocked to the Republican party quite willingly under the banners of Goldwater and Wallace, among others, and their backwards mindsets have been codified by the likes of Regan who convinced them that it was all good old fashioned family values.

Unquestionably, many of the Southern white Democrats who backed segregation wound up turning to the Republican Party, but many of them also stayed in the Democratic Party. They abandoned segregation as a platform and some moderated their positions even on issues other than civil rights. But Republicans has never embraced segregation in the first place, and Southern Democrats remained a relatively conservative bloc in the House and Senate. But as I have already pointed out, Democrats continued to control the state legislatures and the South continued to send a majority of Democrats to Congress. Robert Byrd, a former member of the Ku Klux Klan, who had voted against the CRA of '64 even became Senate Majority Leader. The Roosevelt coalition at the state level was not broken until 1994, a full generation after the CRA.

 

[pegasus8]

You Were Doing Good Till You Brought In That Mantra Of "School Choice," BB!

I usually like and agree with your stuff BoneyardBill. And a lot of your historical facts do hold water in relationship to southern Democrats and Republicans. So we can agree on most of your history of Southern politics. Most people do not realize that a southern democrat was usually one of the "good ole boys," and as racist as most, see most, members of the once proud GOP of today. I was once a proud card carrying Republican in the spirit of a Goldwater, W.F. Buckley, at el. And who did not Reagan when he smiled and told America that "we're bombing in 5 minutes," to that idiot Gadhaffi when he said that no one will cross his "line of death." But the GOP, as I believe what AthenaAwakening is referring to today, is a sinking old rusty ship. Pretty much we all get this. The GOP has tons of money yet it still is dying and withering as its base dies and withers. And even today there is no face of the once proud GOP. Well if you consider that " rent boy" fat ass drug addict gas bug Rush then I guess it does.

Yet I want to point out an amazing political phenomenon that has its roots from the South. My background is in literature and history including the amazing Southern parts of out great land. As you have pointed out correctly the Southern Democrats "joined" the Northern Republicans for political gain back in the post WW 2 era. My point is that who would have thought that the GOP would be "hijacked" by extremism and faith based Christian zealots that were considered the norm and status quo in the South? We can see this today in conservative politics with the manifestations of extreme proselytizing and sometimes bizarre behavior. The GOP has ostracized itself, IMO, by absorbing this Southern religious Protestant ideology. And this ideology does not need to be a Protestant as we have seen in Mitt as long as you have the correct ideology. This hybird of conservative ideology has taken the GOP to an even harder slant to the right. We have seen this in the national, state a local levels. When talking to the base you go harder to the right as some try to be more conservative then the next. And a Southern Democrat was about as conservative as one could get back in the day. This ideology works good in the neo-conservative media as one throws fresh meat at the base. This tilting even more to the right has given the rise of the so called independent political identification because of the repulsiveness of the extreme ideology in today's GOP. Some conservatives today can not associate with the GOP anymore as they will never be part of the Democrats either; hence the rise of the independents.

Many poor blacks living in the South were just as poor and illiterate as their white counter parts yet their white brethren never had to deal with the Jim Crow laws. And even to this day at lot of the South is still segregated; segregated by choice though as you know. So did a lot of blacks associate with the republican party back in those good ole times? Why yeh because the "man" was usually a racist democrat.

Oh and BB when people bring up "school choice," they mean the privatization of the public school system. The so called " job creators" just can not wait to get their hands on that public education money. So to say the Democrats are anti " school choice" means that all people should be able to get an education even if this means one provided at no cost by the state. And BB I have taught in the school system. Teachers do not get enough IMO. But then I guess it is another plank on the new and improved GOP platform to destroy and dismantle all forms of unions and collective bargaining. It is all there in that new GOP ideology ever since the 70's-80's when poor Ronnie did not know where he was or what time of the day it was in the later days.

Yet we can also see the rise of NASCAR, mega churches and other of those good ole boy fun activities from the South today. I mean we all know how and why the KKK and NRA rose from the ashes of the South.

Good thread and peace

Peagsus

 

[Toni]

Unquestionably, many of the Southern white Democrats who backed segregation wound up turning to the Republican Party, but many of them also stayed in the Democratic Party. They abandoned segregation as a platform and some moderated their positions even on issues other than civil rights. But Republicans has never embraced segregation in the first place, and Southern Democrats remained a relatively conservative bloc in the House and Senate. But as I have already pointed out, Democrats continued to control the state legislatures and the South continued to send a majority of Democrats to Congress. Robert Byrd, a former member of the Ku Klux Klan, who had voted against the CRA of '64 even became Senate Majority Leader. The Roosevelt coalition at the state level was not broken until 1994, a full generation after the CRA.

You are right, of course, I did forget about the conservative southern Democrats.

I usually like and agree with your stuff BoneyardBill. And a lot of your historical facts do hold water in relationship to southern Democrats and Republicans. So we can agree on most of your history of Southern politics. Most people do not realize that a southern democrat was usually one of the "good ole boys," and as racist as most, see most, members of the once proud GOP of today. I was once a proud card carrying Republican in the spirit of a Goldwater, W.F. Buckley, at el. And who did not Reagan when he smiled and told America that "we're bombing in 5 minutes," to that idiot Gadhaffi when he said that no one will cross his "line of death."

Who didn't love Goldwater and Regan and similar ilk? Me. Regan made my skin crawl. I was tiny when Goldwater was spouting his crap but even my very conservative parents couldn't stand him.

 

[boneyard bill]

I usually like and agree with your stuff BoneyardBill. And a lot of your historical facts do hold water in relationship to southern Democrats and Republicans. So we can agree on most of your history of Southern politics. Most people do not realize that a southern democrat was usually one of the "good ole boys," and as racist as most, see most, members of the once proud GOP of today. I was once a proud card carrying Republican in the spirit of a Goldwater, W.F. Buckley, at el. And who did not Reagan when he smiled and told America that "we're bombing in 5 minutes," to that idiot Gadhaffi when he said that no one will cross his "line of death." But the GOP, as I believe what AthenaAwakening is referring to today, is a sinking old rusty ship. Pretty much we all get this. The GOP has tons of money yet it still is dying and withering as its base dies and withers. And even today there is no face of the once proud GOP. Well if you consider that " rent boy" fat ass drug addict gas bug Rush then I guess it does.

Yet I want to point out an amazing political phenomenon that has its roots from the South. My background is in literature and history including the amazing Southern parts of out great land. As you have pointed out correctly the Southern Democrats "joined" the Northern Republicans for political gain back in the post WW 2 era. My point is that who would have thought that the GOP would be "hijacked" by extremism and faith based Christian zealots that were considered the norm and status quo in the South? We can see this today in conservative politics with the manifestations of extreme proselytizing and sometimes bizarre behavior. The GOP has ostracized itself, IMO, by absorbing this Southern religious Protestant ideology. And this ideology does not need to be a Protestant as we have seen in Mitt as long as you have the correct ideology. This hybird of conservative ideology has taken the GOP to an even harder slant to the right. We have seen this in the national, state a local levels. When talking to the base you go harder to the right as some try to be more conservative then the next. And a Southern Democrat was about as conservative as one could get back in the day. This ideology works good in the neo-conservative media as one throws fresh meat at the base. This tilting even more to the right has given the rise of the so called independent political identification because of the repulsiveness of the extreme ideology in today's GOP. Some conservatives today can not associate with the GOP anymore as they will never be part of the Democrats either; hence the rise of the independents.

Many poor blacks living in the South were just as poor and illiterate as their white counter parts yet their white brethren never had to deal with the Jim Crow laws. And even to this day at lot of the South is still segregated; segregated by choice though as you know. So did a lot of blacks associate with the republican party back in those good ole times? Why yeh because the "man" was usually a racist democrat.

Oh and BB when people bring up "school choice," they mean the privatization of the public school system. The so called " job creators" just can not wait to get their hands on that public education money. So to say the Democrats are anti " school choice" means that all people should be able to get an education even if this means one provided at no cost by the state. And BB I have taught in the school system. Teachers do not get enough IMO. But then I guess it is another plank on the new and improved GOP platform to destroy and dismantle all forms of unions and collective bargaining. It is all there in that new GOP ideology ever since the 70's-80's when poor Ronnie did not know where he was or what time of the day it was in the later days.

Yet we can also see the rise of NASCAR, mega churches and other of those good ole boy fun activities from the South today. I mean we all know how and why the KKK and NRA rose from the ashes of the South.

Good thread and peace

Peagsus

Claiming that the religious right represents the Republican Party is like claiming that Occupy Wall Street represents the Democratic Party. What has the Democrat Party done for Occupy Wall Street? Not a damn thing. What has the Republican Party done for the religious right? Probably even less. What is the No. 1 issue for the religious right? Probably abortion. So what has happened? When Bill Clinton took office, there were nine justices on the Supreme Court and every single one of them was a Republican appointee. So could the Court muster a mere 5 votes to overturn Roe v. Wade? No, a majority of those appointees still supported it.

When Bush won in 2000, Republicans had control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency. They could have stripped the Supreme Court of jurisdiction over abortion. This would have effectively repealed Roe v. Wade. No constitutional amendment needed. They might have been blocked by a Democrat filibuster although there are some abortion opponents in the Senate among Democrats as well. But they didn't even try.

Abortion has been a great issue for the Republican Party it keeps the evangelicals voting for them (and whole lot more because abortion goes beyond merely a religious issue), and it keeps them contributing money. The worst thing that can happen for Republicans is if they actually passed the issue, however. Because that means that they could lose a lot of fiscal and economic conservatives who favor abortion. So it's great issue for Republicans as long as they keep losing it.

Gun control used to be a similar issue for the Democrats, but then, lo and behold, Clinton's gun control bill actually passed! It was a disaster for the Democrats as they lost their congressional base in the South permanently, and Republicans won a majority in both houses for the first time since Ike's sweep in 1952.

But Republicans haven't gotten rid of Roe v. Wade much less banned abortion nation-wide. Nor have they stopped gay marriage. Nor have they implemented any other part of the agenda of the religious right. All the religious right has gotten from Republicans is rhetoric.

In fact, the religious right probably cost the Republicans the White House this year because they failed to turn out in support of the Republican's Mormon nominee. The GOP currently controls the House of Representatives. There's an excellent chance that they will control the Senate by the end of the year. They failed to win the White House by a mere 4% of the vote which was probably due to the religious affiliation of their candidate. That doesn't sound like a party on the decline to me.

The Republican's conservative economic agenda is far more popular, and has been far more successful, than the Democrat's economic programs. When they abandoned that agenda under Nixon and under the second Bush, they lost the White House. When they pushed that agenda on to a Democrat president, Clinton, he won re-election and left office as a very popular president.

All the Republicans have to do is return to their own traditional economic agenda which emphasizes sound fiscal and monetary fundamentals. Even in 2012, a majority of voters said that they thought Romney would handle the economy better that Obama, but a majority also liked Obama better than Romney so they voted for him.

 

[Bronzeage]

Are you kidding? The majority of blacks lived in the South then and probably still do. Moreover, in the 1966 elections, Republicans won a Senate seat in Tennessee, and Governorships in Arkansas and Maryland and added Virginia in 1967 by running anti-segregationist candidates against segregationist Democrats. They did it because they carried the newly-enfranchised black voters. They nearly won Georgia as well. Orval Faubus did not run for re-election in Arkansas in 1966 because he knew that he would lose because of the black vote. Harry Byrd, Jr. ran for re-election in Virginia as an independent because he knew that he could not win the Democrat primary because of the black vote. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 completely changed Southern politics. That much is undeniable.

I don't think anyone claimed the VRA did not change southern politics. What I said was the number of southern blacks who were registered Republican, and voted, was a negligible number.

 

[Toni]

Eh, I don't like the analogy of the religious right and Occupy Wall Street. For one thing, the religious right actually elects Republicans and Occupy Wall Street has more in common with the Green Party, except Occupy is better organized and more coherent.

I will agree that the Republicans' fiscal ideology is appealing to some voters. We'll have to agree to disagree about whether it is actually a fiscally responsible position.

 

[pegasus8]

So The Religious Right Has No Influence And Or Association With The Conservative GOP?

Well if you are going to go all "Sargent Shultz" on me and say"what Christians in republican politics," then I do not know what to tell yeh. " White Evangelist Protestants?" We do not need any stinking Anglo Saxon Protestants in today's GOP. If one does not see that the "religious right," along with the white evangelist Protestants, with it's roots in the South, do not have a strong influence on the GOP then I do not know what to tell you. Pat Robertson ran in what 1988? He had a strong influence. James Dobson's Focus on the Family has a strong influence. That big crook Jerry Falwell and his Moral Majority had a huge influence on the neo-conservative movement. Well at least in his neck of the woods. A lot of these Southern con men put out "voter guides" to "suggest " who and how to vote. Ralph Reed was huge in the GOP with his Christian Coalition. So maybe I am just making this stuff up or pulling this stuff out of my you know where.

But we are all grown ups here right Boneyard Bill? Even from a critical look at some of the GOP's ideology to say that it does not mirror or has been influenced by the Christian Right or religious right is well its absurd. The Pew Institute did a poll showing that at least 70% of white evangel Protestants lean and vote just like the GOP wants them to. Well at least they "lean" towards the GOP. The Christian Right or the religious right have been and will continue to garner votes, influence GOP candidates that support their ideology which just so happens to be today's party's platform. So maybe not all Republicans are white evangelistic Protestants. Yet all, well almost all WEP are Republicans. How does that work? Maybe just insert Tea Party for WEP too.

Jefferson's separation of church and state is not explicit in the Constitution? Abortion is a sin in God's eyes and should be illegal and or outlawed along with other sins, see gay marriage. Creationism along with ID should be taught next to evolution in pubic schools and on and on ad nauseam . Gee BB if we just look at the Tea Party alone and how it makes up 40-45% of the GOP base one can see a fairly strong religious right influence. These are the Christian Right and the religious right's ideology that have now gone mainstream in the GOP. Notice not main street in America just the GOP.

Now on the extreme wing we have people like Sarah Palin, Michele Batshit Bachman who seem to support this "Dominionism " from the 1990's. They will deny it yet it is well known that they support and brag in private how the U.S. government should be a "Christian " government. These politicians want to implement their agenda through the GOP for a country run by the religious right. It is not so much a political movement like the Tea Party as it is an ideological, Christian based agenda. We constantly hear how the Founding Fathers and the Constitution supports this ideology. Rick Perry had prayer rallies at his political events. So this religious right conservative Christian movement has been expanding in the GOP political arena while it has been alienating everyone else.

And politically it can get dangerous with jack ass Presidents claiming that God told them to invade Iraq. Or that some consider the invasion all part of His plan. Or by supporting the state of Israel with carte blanche they support the biblical "end times." The abortion issue has now IMO been taken up by the states. We see again this religious right's influence in states with Republican governors and legislatives that enact some crazy down right mean anti-abortions laws that again support this ideology. Heh more power to them as long as the rich can afford and have access to birth control and doctors while the working class slobs have to fend for themselves.

And the Occupy Movement which was one of America's last real grass roots movement unlike the billionaire overtly financed Tea Party was doomed from both the Left and the Right's influence from Wall Street, IMO.

Thanks BB and if we wait for about ten minutes then we can probably hear another loyal GOP public comment concerning "legitimate rapes," or that " women are just the hosts," or that" women should pay more for health care" because, well because they are women!

Oh and those sound fiscal agendas that we always hear about like some old rusty cannon which usually have the words "tax cuts for the job creators" and or "corporations" have been about as much monetary conservative sense as spending $trillions on invading and occupying Arab countries. Heh but it sounds good and conservative. You know like a strong defense. Never mind that we spend more on defense than the next 15 countries combined! See nothing but more pure patriotic conservative values!

Thanks BB and they sure quashed those pesky OWS people.

Peace dude

Pegasus

 

[Bronzeage]

No one represents the Republican Party and that is their major problem. Each faction has their hand on the party banner, but no one has the strength to pull the rest in their direction, or to tear their piece loose and form a new party.

In any sensible analysis, the Religious Right has a much greater voice in the GOP than anyone connected to the Occupy movement has in the Democratic Party.

 

[boneyard bill]

Eh, I don't like the analogy of the religious right and Occupy Wall Street. For one thing, the religious right actually elects Republicans and Occupy Wall Street has more in common with the Green Party, except Occupy is better organized and more coherent.

I will agree that the Republicans' fiscal ideology is appealing to some voters. We'll have to agree to disagree about whether it is actually a fiscally responsible position.

My point was that the religious right hasn't gotten anything more out of the Republicans than Occupy Wall Street has gotten out of the Dems. We're still waiting for a single Wall Street banker to be prosecuted for fraud even as their companies are losing civil suits right and left because of fraud.

Likewise the religious right is still waiting for repeal of Roe v. Wade, nor have any other of their legislative priorities been enacted into law as far a I can see except for DOMA also which had the support of most Democrats at the time.

 

[boneyard bill]

Pegasus writes:



You completely missed the point of my response.

Jefferson's separation of church and state is not explicit in the Constitution? Abortion is a sin in God's eyes and should be illegal and or outlawed along with other sins, see gay marriage. Creationism along with ID should be taught next to evolution in pubic schools and on and on ad nauseam .

Exactly what, in this religious right agenda, has been enacted into law? None of it. Republicans had control of both houses of Congress for nearly six years under George W. Bush, and they didn't enact anything that was a top priority for the religious right. The only "victory" for the religious right that I can think of was DOMA, and that was enacted under the Clinton Administration with his full support.

Gee BB if we just look at the Tea Party alone and how it makes up 40-45% of the GOP base one can see a fairly strong religious right influence. These are the Christian Right and the religious right's ideology that have now gone mainstream in the GOP. Notice not main street in America just the GOP.

The Tea Party movement is not the religious right. They are totally separate. There may be some overlap in membership because of certain issues. Lots of people favor a balanced budget so it shouldn't be surprising if some religious people do as well. But the agenda of the Tea Party is twofold: balance the budget and abide strictly by the constitution. The Tea Party has endorsed pro-abortion candidates, for example, something no religious right organization would likely do.

And politically it can get dangerous with jack ass Presidents claiming that God told them to invade Iraq. Or that some consider the invasion all part of His plan. Or by supporting the state of Israel with carte blanche they support the biblical "end times."

George Bush did not claim that God told him to invade Iraq, and he's the guy who made that decision. Israel probably has more support on the Democrat side of the aisle than on the Republican, and if there are people on the religious right who have supported Israel, it doesn't separate them from the vast majority of the population. Meanwhile, of course, they are strongly courted by the Israel lobby just as the lobby courts the support of other groups around the US.

The abortion issue has now IMO been taken up by the states. We see again this religious right's influence in states with Republican governors and legislatives that enact some crazy down right mean anti-abortions laws that again support this ideology. Heh more power to them as long as the rich can afford and have access to birth control and doctors while the working class slobs have to fend for themselves.

I don't know what you mean by "mean" abortion laws. You mean those tough abortion laws for that guy in Pennsylvania who was killing babies when they were born alive? The fact is that Roe v. Wade overturned the laws of most states. Abortion was only legal in a few states when Roe v. Wade was decided. So virtually all states had to re-write their abortion laws to make them conform to Roe v. Wade.

And the Occupy Movement which was one of America's last real grass roots movement unlike the billionaire overtly financed Tea Party was doomed from both the Left and the Right's influence from Wall Street, IMO.

Occupy Wall Street a "grass roots" movement? Are you kidding? They only amounted to a handful of people and those were divided into the neo-Hippies who were sloppy and rude and the limousine liberals who couldn't stand them and kept their protests as far away from them as possible.

Oh and those sound fiscal agendas that we always hear about like some old rusty cannon which usually have the words "tax cuts for the job creators" and or "corporations" have been about as much monetary conservative sense as spending $trillions on invading and occupying Arab countries. Heh but it sounds good and conservative. You know like a strong defense. Never mind that we spend more on defense than the next 15 countries combined! See nothing but more pure patriotic conservative values!

Admittedly, Republicans haven't been very good at fiscal policy, but it's the Tea Party that is trying to hold their feet to the fire on this. And, as far as I know, the ONLY Republican groups that have called for cuts in defense spending have been Tea Party groups. (Unless you consider Ron Paul's organization a Republican group, but as far as I can see, they do not operate within the Republican Party).

Meanwhile, what has Obama done? He didn't pull troops out of Iraq until he was forced to by the Iraqi's unwillingness to extend the SOFA agreement. He INCREASED our forces in Afghanistan. He intervened on the side of Al Qaeda in Libya and was going to intervene on their side in Syria until he was prevented from doing so by public opinion and the Tea Party was leader in that movement.

You are stereotyping the religious right, the Tea Parties, and the Republican Party to fit your own preconceived notions while ignoring the fact that the actual policies of the Democrats have differed little from the actual policies of the Republicans. The Republicans have given the religious right rhetoric and nothing more. But evangelical Christians have fallen for it and loyally supported Republican candidates. It is the Tea Party that HASN'T fallen for it and are trying to force the Republicans to be something other than a pale version of the Democrats. Meanwhile, the Democrats have given you nothing but rhetoric, and you have fallen for it.

Thanks BB and they sure quashed those pesky OWS people.

What was there to quash? They were never a serious movement, and if they had been the Republicans would have rejoiced at the division among the Democrats. If there was any quashing done, it was by the Democratic Party, but I don't think the movement was serious enough for the Democrats to much to get rid of it.

 

[boneyard bill]

No one represents the Republican Party and that is their major problem. Each faction has their hand on the party banner, but no one has the strength to pull the rest in their direction, or to tear their piece loose and form a new party.

In any sensible analysis, the Religious Right has a much greater voice in the GOP than anyone connected to the Occupy movement has in the Democratic Party.

Unquestionably the religious right is far more important a part of the Republican base that the occupy movement is of the Democrat base. But what has the religious right actually gotten from the Republican Party? Nada.

What has Occupy Wall Street gotten from the Democrats? Nada.

That's the similarity.

 

[Bronzeage]

Unquestionably the religious right is far more important a part of the Republican base that the occupy movement is of the Democrat base. But what has the religious right actually gotten from the Republican Party? Nada.

What has Occupy Wall Street gotten from the Democrats? Nada.

That's the similarity.

Consider the Religious right has been in the GOP since Nixon and OWS has existed less than 2 years, it's not a fair comparison. To say the RR has gotten nothing from the GOP is not a fair statement, either.

 

[boneyard bill]

Consider the Religious right has been in the GOP since Nixon and OWS has existed less than 2 years, it's not a fair comparison. To say the RR has gotten nothing from the GOP is not a fair statement, either.

I wouldn't date the RR as far back as Nixon. In 1976 they backed Jimmy Carter until he stabbed them in the back on the abortion issue. Even then, however, Carter received disproportionate support from religious fundamentalists. They carried Ohio for him. Ford actually did better among Catholics than most Republicans and ran well for a Republican in the Cleveland area. But Carter did even better in the traditionally Republican Cincinnati area because of support from religious conservatives. I think the same was true for the rest of the country. Carter carried ten of the eleven Southern states. Of course, Carter WAS a religious conservative, and he spoke their language.

Religious conservatives switched to Reagan in 1980 because of abortion. (Although you really can't simply ignore the state of the economy either). But the real, official transformation came with Pat Robertson's presidential campaign in 1988. The primary intent of that campaign was to bring religious conservatives into the Republican Party, and it succeeded.

As far as what the religious right has gotten from Republicans, I'm open to suggestions. I can't think of any. Can you name even one thing that is on their religious agenda that has been enacted in to law? The only thing I can think of is DOMA, and as I've pointed out, that had the backing of Democrats as well.

 

[Bronzeage]

I wouldn't date the RR as far back as Nixon. In 1976 they backed Jimmy Carter until he stabbed them in the back on the abortion issue. Even then, however, Carter received disproportionate support from religious fundamentalists. They carried Ohio for him. Ford actually did better among Catholics than most Republicans and ran well for a Republican in the Cleveland area. But Carter did even better in the traditionally Republican Cincinnati area because of support from religious conservatives. I think the same was true for the rest of the country. Carter carried ten of the eleven Southern states. Of course, Carter WAS a religious conservative, and he spoke their language.

Religious conservatives switched to Reagan in 1980 because of abortion. (Although you really can't simply ignore the state of the economy either). But the real, official transformation came with Pat Robertson's presidential campaign in 1988. The primary intent of that campaign was to bring religious conservatives into the Republican Party, and it succeeded.

As far as what the religious right has gotten from Republicans, I'm open to suggestions. I can't think of any. Can you name even one thing that is on their religious agenda that has been enacted in to law? The only thing I can think of is DOMA, and as I've pointed out, that had the backing of Democrats as well.

The GOP has given the Religious Right access to power. That is something that cannot be devalued.

 

[boneyard bill]

The GOP has given the Religious Right access to power. That is something that cannot be devalued.

OK, what is that value specifically?

 

[Bronzeage]

OK, what is that value specifically?

This maybe one of those, "If you have to ask, you'll never understand," questions. Access to a Senators or Congressman's office can be very lucrative. A respectable minister of the cloth can sit across the desk or pose for pictures, then present a proposal or request from one of his generous benefactors. Money buys access and access brings more money.

The religious right has always had more obstructive power than real initiative. They can't do much, but they can block and steer. This means GOP leaders cannot ignore or alienate them. If not for the religious right, we would have the equal rights amendment, same sex marriage, free and full abortion rights, and probably recreational marijuana. They may not have gained much, but they have denied much.

 

[boneyard bill]

Bronzeage writes:

If not for the religious right, we would have the equal rights amendment, same sex marriage, free and full abortion rights, and probably recreational marijuana. They may not have gained much, but they have denied much.

I don't think the equal rights amendment failed because of the religious right. In fact, I don't even recall them taking a stand on it. It failed because it was a lousy amendment that was so broadly worded that no one could say what it really meant. We have same-sex marriage, and it's been expanding ever since the Democrats dropped their opposition to it. We have free and full abortion. Are you claiming that state laws against partial-birth abortion are really a significant infringement on a woman's rights? We have legal recreational marijuana in two states including Colorado where both the religious right and the Mormons are a quite strong. We would probably have legal medical marijuana in quite a few states if the Obama administration had abided by its pledge not to enforce federal laws where it was legal at the state level, but he reversed himself on that policy so it's still a hassle for a state to legalize marijuana even just for medicinal purposes.

 

[Bronzeage]

Bronzeage writes:



I don't think the equal rights amendment failed because of the religious right. In fact, I don't even recall them taking a stand on it. It failed because it was a lousy amendment that was so broadly worded that no one could say what it really meant. We have same-sex marriage, and it's been expanding ever since the Democrats dropped their opposition to it. We have free and full abortion. Are you claiming that state laws against partial-birth abortion are really a significant infringement on a woman's rights? We have legal recreational marijuana in two states including Colorado where both the religious right and the Mormons are a quite strong. We would probably have legal medical marijuana in quite a few states if the Obama administration had abided by its pledge not to enforce federal laws where it was legal at the state level, but he reversed himself on that policy so it's still a hassle for a state to legalize marijuana even just for medicinal purposes.

Well then, I suppose the Religious right is finished as a political force in this country and we are wasting time with this discussion. Te fight is over and we can all go home.

The Religious Right was a solid part of the anti-equal rights movement. They continue to push for abortion restrictions in state legislators and give strong support to pro-life candidates. Do you think it's the Unitarians who want the vaginal ultrasounds before a woman's request for an abortion is granted?

 

[boneyard bill]

Well then, I suppose the Religious right is finished as a political force in this country and we are wasting time with this discussion. Te fight is over and we can all go home.

The Religious Right was a solid part of the anti-equal rights movement. They continue to push for abortion restrictions in state legislators and give strong support to pro-life candidates. Do you think it's the Unitarians who want the vaginal ultrasounds before a woman's request for an abortion is granted?

I'm well aware of the religious right's agenda. My point is that they haven't gotten any significant part of that agenda enacted. Yes, a few states have enacted measures that place minor restrictions on abortions, but unless they can nullify Roe v. Wade, there's little that they can do. The left has been far more successful at getting their programs enacted even though they are probably fewer in number than the religious right. Certainly there are fewer gays in this country than religious conservatives, but gays have gotten nearly everything they wanted. I suspect that religious conservatives also vastly outnumber environmentalists as well, but environmentalists have gotten nearly everything they have demanded except the most unfeasible demands.