• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Xmas Stuff

Santa brought me the MOST COMFORTABLE schlumpy cardigan to gad about my house in! (my last one having holes worn in the elbows.) It even has functional POCKETS!

I am actually thrilled! :D

I was intending to toss the old one, but my cats have informed me that they NEED to nest/sleep on it a while, thankyouverymuch.... So, between that & their new 4' scratching post, I guess THEY've had a good haul for Xmas, too. :tiger:
 
The usual account of Jesus Christ's birth is a conflation of the Matthew and the Luke accounts.

Matthew:

Genealogy: Abraham to David to Joseph. While Joseph and Mary were engaged, the Holy Spirit made Mary pregnant, and an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him that it was OK to go ahead with the marriage, because of what a great child Mary will have. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ in Bethlehem during King Herod's reign over Judea.

Some wise men came from the east to give their honors to the baby JC, calling him the king of the Jews and noticing a certain star in the sky. Herod asked those gentlemen about this, and he sent them to look for the baby JC. They followed that star to JC's birthplace, and they gave him some gifts: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

 Frankincense
Frankincense (also known as olibanum, Hebrew: לבונה‎ [levona], Arabic: اللبان‎ al-libān or Arabic: البخور‎ al-bakhūr) is an aromatic resin used in incense and perfumes, obtained from trees of the genus Boswellia in the family Burseraceae, particularly Boswellia sacra (syn. B. bhaw-dajiana), B. carterii, B. frereana, B. serrata (B. thurifera, Indian frankincense), and B. papyrifera. The word is from Old French franc encens ('high-quality incense').[1]

 Myrrh
Myrrh (/mɜːr/; from Aramaic, but see § Etymology) is a natural gum or resin extracted from a number of small, thorny tree species of the genus Commiphora.[1] Myrrh resin has been used throughout history as a perfume, incense, and medicine. Myrrh mixed with wine can also be ingested.[citation needed]

Gold and tree resins. What gifts.

The wise men got a warning in a dream not to return to Herod, and they returned home by a different route. Then an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him to flee to Egypt with Mary and JC, because Herod will try to kill JC. Joseph did that, and when Herod found out about that, he ordered the killing of the baby boys of Bethlehem and the nearby area.

After Herod died, an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him that it was safe to return, though he chose to settle in Nazareth.
 
Luke:

Luke starts off by bragging about all the work that he did in assembling the accounts that he worked from.

During King Herod's reign, a certain Zechariah was a priest. He and his wife Elizabeth were unable to have a child for several years, despite their being very virtuous. When Zechariah was burning some incense in a holy place, an angel appeared before him and assured him that Elizabeth would indeed get pregnant. Which she did.

While Elizabeth was pregnant, an angel appeared to Mary and told her that she will have a very great child. Since there is no man around to make her pregnant, it will be the Holy Spirit who will do that. Just as Elizabeth miraculously got pregnant, Mary will also. Elizabeth then gave birth to a child who grew up to be John the Baptist.

Augustus Caesar decreed that everybody in the Roman Empire was to be listed for paying taxes, and that they would have to go to their ancestral homes to do so. By then, Joseph and Mary were engaged, and they had to go from Nazareth to Bethlehem for that. They could not find a place to stay, so when Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, she had to place him in a manger, a feeding trough.

Some shepherds were watching over their sheep in a nearby field, and an angel appeared to them and told them about a great child that had been born in Bethlehem, and that he was resting in a manger. They looked and they found Joseph and Mary and JC, and they gave Joseph and Mary that great news about JC.

Luke gets into JC's genealogy a little bit later: God - Adam - Abraham - David - Joseph.
 
Of the other two canonical gospels, Mark starts out with John the Baptist baptizing an adult Jesus Christ, and John starts out with a very metaphysical sort of origin. I don't know about the noncanonical ones.

We have no idea who wrote the canonical four Gospels, or even the noncanoncal ones (I recall some 40, but I'm not sure). The authors' names are a later tradition, and it must be noted that they form a convenient shorthand. "Matthew" is "whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew".

The usual birth story is a combination of Matthew's and Luke's stories, though it's curious that Luke omitted a lot of big details that Matthew mentioned, and vice versa.

Matthew's and Luke's genealogies are even worse -- most of their names are different.


Having to go to one's home town to get listed for taxes, that is totally unhistorical. There is no independent documentation of having to do that, it is a logistical nightmare, and it is unnecessary.

Killing those Bethlehem baby boys is an atrocity not mentioned in any other source on Herod, though the other sources that we have on him make him seem paranoid and murderous. Meaning that that massacre would have been completely in character for him.
 
Of the other two canonical gospels, Mark starts out with John the Baptist baptizing an adult Jesus Christ, and John starts out with a very metaphysical sort of origin. I don't know about the noncanonical ones.

We have no idea who wrote the canonical four Gospels, or even the noncanoncal ones (I recall some 40, but I'm not sure). The authors' names are a later tradition, and it must be noted that they form a convenient shorthand. "Matthew" is "whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew".

The usual birth story is a combination of Matthew's and Luke's stories, though it's curious that Luke omitted a lot of big details that Matthew mentioned, and vice versa.

Matthew's and Luke's genealogies are even worse -- most of their names are different.


Having to go to one's home town to get listed for taxes, that is totally unhistorical. There is no independent documentation of having to do that, it is a logistical nightmare, and it is unnecessary.

Killing those Bethlehem baby boys is an atrocity not mentioned in any other source on Herod, though the other sources that we have on him make him seem paranoid and murderous. Meaning that that massacre would have been completely in character for him.

It seems a bit odd that a story would describe a non-historical census that had been conducted just fifty years before, though; wouldn't several members of the audience remember?
 
Last edited:
...Gold and tree resins. What gifts.

Gold - for the King
Frankincense- for the Priest
Myrrh - For Golgotha


Having to go to one's home town to get listed for taxes, that is totally unhistorical. There is no independent documentation of having to do that, it is a logistical nightmare, and it is unnecessary.

The Romans DID tax people and they did carry out censuses for the purposes of administering that taxation.
How would you know if everyone was paying their tax if you didn't have an accurate head count?
 
wouldn't several members of the audience remember?

And what if they did? It's not like there was a central complaints department, or any consequences if an "audience member" were to stand up and say, "Hey, wait one damn minute! That's not how it happened!"

Hell, the ending to the central storyline of the passion narrative is to have Pilate commit open treason against Rome with zero consequences and all in the service of appeasing festival Jews in a supposed "tradition" that could not possibly have ever been a tradition, much less something that actually happened.

Plus we have instances within the books talking about how some people believed X while others believed Y, etc, including, perhaps most famously, at least one entire community that evidently did not even believe that the Jesus character resurrected from the dead.

Didn't seem to change anything.
 
wouldn't several members of the audience remember?

And what if they did? It's not like there was a central complaints department, or any consequences if an audience member were to stand up and say, "That's not how it happened!"

Plus we have instances within the books talking about how some people believed X while others believed Y, etc, including, perhaps most famously, at least one entire community that evidently did not even believe that the Jesus character resurrected from the dead.

Didn't seem to change anything.

Changed a lot! The story underwent quite a bit of change over the centuries.
 
wouldn't several members of the audience remember?

And what if they did? It's not like there was a central complaints department, or any consequences if an audience member were to stand up and say, "That's not how it happened!"

Plus we have instances within the books talking about how some people believed X while others believed Y, etc, including, perhaps most famously, at least one entire community that evidently did not even believe that the Jesus character resurrected from the dead.

Didn't seem to change anything.

Changed a lot! The story underwent quite a bit of change over the centuries.

How so?

The only "change" I am aware of in regard to the PN is the inclusion of a counterfeit ending. The other later plagiarizers made their additions/alterations, but, again, no one seems to have stood up and said, "Hey, wait a minute! That didn't happen that way."

At least no one who wrote down their critique or were of any consequence.

ETA: I mean, "how so" in regard to people who were eyewitnesses standing up and saying, "That didn't happen that way" and there was a change to the story accordingly.
 
Changed a lot! The story underwent quite a bit of change over the centuries.

How so?

The Nativity story? Read lpetrich's posts above, for starters.

I added to my post while you were posting, apparently. See above, or just respond to this point:

Koy said:
ETA: I mean, "how so" in regard to people who were eyewitnesses standing up and saying, "That didn't happen that way" and there was a change to the story accordingly.

Your objection seems to be that no one would tell a story that has false details (such as requiring citizens to return to their birth homes in order to take a census), because someone in the audience might be old enough to remember whether or not that actually happened.

What difference would that make?

The story we do have (in Mark) does exactly that by including, for example, a "tradition" of Pilate committing open treason against Rome--right in front of his own troops no less--all because he wants to please the very people he's there to subjugate. That did not--nor could not--have ever happened and that fact would be well known to people whether they lived through it or not, yet that blatant lie evidently made no difference. It's still in the book after all.

Likewise the whole idea of the central character rising from the dead. Evidently there was an entire community--of adherents, no less--that did not believe Jesus rose from the dead, so much so in fact that the leader of their church felt he needed to write a stern rebuke insisting that if they did not believe such a thing, then there was no church! That it ALL hinges on believing that he did, in fact, resurrect from the dead.

And, again, that's still in the book, in spite of the fact that there were evidently MANY people that supposedly lived within, what, twenty-five years of the alleged event (from the time Paul supposedly wrote that letter), who did not believe that part of the story they were told and must have spoken up in large enough numbers to provoke Paul's rebuke at the very least.
 
Last edited:
...Gold and tree resins. What gifts.
Gold - for the King
Frankincense- for the Priest
Myrrh - For Golgotha
Sources?

Gold and tree resins seem like rather expensive gifts. Why give them to the child of two commoners?

Having to go to one's home town to get listed for taxes, that is totally unhistorical. There is no independent documentation of having to do that, it is a logistical nightmare, and it is unnecessary.
The Romans DID tax people and they did carry out censuses for the purposes of administering that taxation.
How would you know if everyone was paying their tax if you didn't have an accurate head count?
TOTALLY beside the point.
 
Gold and tree resins seem like rather expensive gifts. Why give them to the child of two commoners?

They evidently somehow just knew--because they were "wise"--that the One True God had just pointlessly incarnated into flesh in order to experience first hand what he had created to begin with (gestation from, presumably, sperm impregnating ovum to vaginal birth) and they traveled a great distance to give him such gifts (instead of sacrificing an animal or grain, which is Yahweh's preferred method of token gifts) in order to....um..........fund his upbringing for about a month or two, maybe more?

And then no one else in the entire world was ever as wise and no one gave him or his family any more such gifts because....um..........uh............carpentry was such a good way to make money that Joseph could cover all the family expenses.

And then it became Joseph And Son's Carpentry for something like fifteen years or so when all of a sudden, God up in Heaven revealed to Himself down on Earth that they were one and the same (sort of, kind of, it's complicated) and that it was time for God on Earth to tell only a small handful of people the Golden Rule and then it was time for God in heaven to will Himself to be sacrificed to Himself as a necessary requirement to appease His own wrath at all of humanity because of what Adam did and in spite of the fact that, God supposedly already wiped out all of humanity and started over with Noah, but that also didn't take.

And then, neither does His own sacrifice to Himself, because He needs to come again for some strange reason (three time's a charm/trinity I guess) at some point "soon" in order to pave the way for Himself to come to earth....um......so......yeah. He has to come to Earth again in order to pave the way for His coming to earth, again, like, ninety days later after he comes to Earth again, or something. Again.
 
Last edited:
Here is the combined Matthew-Luke story that one so often sees:

Augustus Caesar, taxes, and everybody going back to their ancestral homes. Meaning Bethlehem for Joseph and Mary. An inn there is full, so they have to use a stable. Mary gives birth to Jesus Christ, and she puts the baby JC in a manger there.

An angel appears to some shepherds and he announces to them who was born in Bethlehem. A special star also appears in the sky, and some wise men follow it. Both the shepherds and the wise men visit the manger with JC in it, and the wise men present gifts of gold and some fragrant tree resins.

The wise men visit King Herod and they tell him that the King of the Jews has been born in Bethlehem. He then orders the mass murder of the Bethlehem baby boys, but Joseph, Mary, and JC escape to Egypt.


The two stories don't differ in minor details, they have major differences.
 
The wise men visit King Herod and they tell him that the King of the Jews has been born in Bethlehem. He then orders the mass murder of the Bethlehem baby boys, but Joseph, Mary, and JC escape to Egypt.

Yeah, which, if they were truly "wise" and/or had God whispering in their ears, they should have known might piss off Herod. Though, considering the fact that "King of the Jews" is not actually a meaningful title and could only have been meant figuratively, it's still unclear why Herod would murder thousands.

But why quibble?
 

Tradition

Gold and tree resins seem like rather expensive gifts. Why give them to the child of two commoners?

I know! Right?
Why would they do that?


Having to go to one's home town to get listed for taxes, that is totally unhistorical. There is no independent documentation of having to do that, it is a logistical nightmare, and it is unnecessary.
The Romans DID tax people and they did carry out censuses for the purposes of administering that taxation.
How would you know if everyone was paying their tax if you didn't have an accurate head count?
TOTALLY beside the point.

The reason why you would have census to count the population is hardly 'beside the point'.
You said a census was unnecessary. I just explained why it was. How is that beside the point?

You also said it was a logistical nightmare. Is that detail "beside the point"?

All those logistical nightmares...

[YOUTUBE]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo[/YOUTUBE]
 
Last edited:
Why would they do that?

They wouldn't. Wait, let me pre-empt your additionally vacuous comment. They didn't. It never happened.

Unless you'd like to argue that somehow the author of the story was there in order to confirm it happened first hand? No? Then at exactly what point--thirty three-odd years later--did any of the wise men or shepherds know to find some guy named "Luke" to tell him exactly what transpired--including exactly what they all said--and then why did "Luke" take an additional fifty to eighty years to write it down?

Because they're "wise" again?

And Luke didn't bother to relate the fact that they actually somehow tracked him down in order to tell him this story why exactly? Seems that would be equally miraculous and a further sign of divine intervention, but, overkill? Ya think.

The reason why you would have census to count the population is hardly 'beside the point'. You said a census was unnecessary. I just explained why it was. How is that beside the point?

Gee. Deliberately evasive. So uncharacteristic of you.

You also said it was a logistical nightmare. Is that detail "beside the point"?

And he also said:

Having to go to one's home town

Tell us how often you have to fly back to your birth town when the census is taken. And why as that would completely contradict the entire purpose of taking a census.
 
The reason you would have to go to your home town is the same reason you have to prove your identity when voting.

Joseph could just rock up to any polling station or census data collection point and say..."yeah, so I'm Joseph son of Heli and I'm here to like...get my name ticked off the list."[/]

And the Romans would be all like, yeah that's cool. We don't know you from a bar of soap but we trust you. Off you go...back to your home town where you're recognised.
 
The reason you would have to go to your home town is the same reason you have to prove your identity when voting.

What? What do you think a census measures?

And the Romans would be all like, yeah that's cool. We don't know you from a bar of soap but we trust you. Off you go...back to your home town where you're recognised.

Ohhhh, so the Romans in the home towns that are taking the census there have all memorized everyone's faces when they were children and throughout their youth and must physically recognize every single person who moved away from their home towns in order to count them--no matter how old they are now, or else....what?

It doesn't count? Pardon the pun.

And no one ever moved to a new location back then, they just temporarily wandered around a bit and crashed on couches and the like but ALWAYS maintained their legal residence in the town they were born, because, census.

:thumbsup:
 
The Nativity story? Read lpetrich's posts above, for starters.

I added to my post while you were posting, apparently. See above, or just respond to this point:

Koy said:
ETA: I mean, "how so" in regard to people who were eyewitnesses standing up and saying, "That didn't happen that way" and there was a change to the story accordingly.

Your objection seems to be that no one would tell a story that has false details (such as requiring citizens to return to their birth homes in order to take a census), because someone in the audience might be old enough to remember whether or not that actually happened.

What difference would that make?

The story we do have (in Mark) does exactly that by including, for example, a "tradition" of Pilate committing open treason against Rome--right in front of his own troops no less--all because he wants to please the very people he's there to subjugate. That did not--nor could not--have ever happened and that fact would be well known to people whether they lived through it or not, yet that blatant lie evidently made no difference. It's still in the book after all.

Likewise the whole idea of the central character rising from the dead. Evidently there was an entire community--of adherents, no less--that did not believe Jesus rose from the dead, so much so in fact that the leader of their church felt he needed to write a stern rebuke insisting that if they did not believe such a thing, then there was no church! That it ALL hinges on believing that he did, in fact, resurrect from the dead.

And, again, that's still in the book, in spite of the fact that there were evidently MANY people that supposedly lived within, what, twenty-five years of the alleged event (from the time Paul supposedly wrote that letter), who did not believe that part of the story they were told and must have spoken up in large enough numbers to provoke Paul's rebuke at the very least.

All of that happened "far away in a foreign land", though. This matter of a census seems less like something a Roman audience would find plausible if such a census was never taken. And an odd detail to invent, in any case. If they just needed to get the main characters to Bethlehem, why not have them travel there to visit the inlaws? Or just start there in the first place and invent a reason to go to Nazaret later?

Paul had nothing to do with either of the books under discussion, nor does he seem to have been aware of most of the details of Jesus' biography if the content of his letters is any indication. He knew Jesus as a celestial figure, not as a man.
 
Back
Top Bottom