Yet another war, this time with Iran

[Toni]

How has Iran's global influence grown?

Power is the ability to make others do stuff they'd rather not.

...like run out of oil?

Closing the strait (note, it is not straight, it has a fairly sharp bend) is hugely influential, and by allowing certain vessels to pass, while prohibiting others, Iran has gained at least some degree of new influence over nations such as China and India (who between them constitute a quarter of the world), and are also able to bolster the Russian economy and strengthen that country's ties to Iran, which in turn allows Iran to rebuild her military.

They’ve always had that ability. Now, they have a reason to direct that ability in ways that irritate the US.

 

[ZiprHead]

I definitely understand that some people, make and female, enjoy looking at images of naked people. I also understand ways that can be destructive towards people who do not choose to participate in porn or erotica. Myself? I’m agnostic. But Im not blind to some of the very destructive aspects. This has become particularly horrible re: young men who admire toxic masculinity stances such as believing that (young, attractive— no fatties!) women must make themselves available to them on demand. It’s the same sickness that allowed our country to eject a known rapist and pedophile as POTUS—twice!

If only we had EJECTED him.

I fixed the typo.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You sound like Hamas leadership.

More like Churchill or Roosevelt.

Nah. It is Hama's policy.

My point is that we should not capitulate to the islamofascists just because oil prices went up some.

What on earth are you on about now? The US has achieved its objectives - eliminate the regime leaders, and nuclear and missile capabilities.

Iran is still as terrorist as ever.

Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When did I suggest giving anyone any money?

Is this some kind of bizarre belief of yours, that the only possible way to interact with someone is to either kill them, or give them money?

There was no urgent or pressing need to "lead them to moderate"; The main thing was to avoid pushing them the other way - which is why no previous US President was dumb enough to emabark on Operation Epic Fail.

Every past deal with Iran has involved in one way or another giving them large amounts of money. Then they promptly turn around and grab more hostages.

 

[DrZoidberg]

How has Iran's global influence grown?

Power is the ability to make others do stuff they'd rather not.

...like run out of oil?

Closing the strait (note, it is not straight, it has a fairly sharp bend) is hugely influential, and by allowing certain vessels to pass, while prohibiting others, Iran has gained at least some degree of new influence over nations such as China and India (who between them constitute a quarter of the world), and are also able to bolster the Russian economy and strengthen that country's ties to Iran, which in turn allows Iran to rebuild her military.

Its only a tool for power if Iran can use it to get what they want. How's that going for them, do you think?

Until it leads to countries threatening USA for this, its a limp dick

 

[ZiprHead]

I am not cherry-picking.

Yes, you are.

Repression is the rule in Islamic societies.

Repression is the rule in any fundamentalist religious society.

 

[laughing dog]

You sound like Hamas leadership.

More like Churchill or Roosevelt.

Nah. It is Hama's policy.

My point is that we should not capitulate to the islamofascists just because oil prices went up some.

What on earth are you on about now? The US has achieved its objectives - eliminate the regime leaders, and nuclear and missile capabilities.

Iran is still as terrorist as ever.

Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.

Unless you are advocating annihilating Iran as a nation, how is that relevant?

 

[Harry Bosch]

You sound like Hamas leadership.

More like Churchill or Roosevelt.

Nah. It is Hama's policy.

My point is that we should not capitulate to the islamofascists just because oil prices went up some.

What on earth are you on about now? The US has achieved its objectives - eliminate the regime leaders, and nuclear and missile capabilities.

Iran is still as terrorist as ever.

Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.

Absolutely. They are a terrorist regime. And Trump has made them stronger. He killed their older leader; empowering the younger more savvy (possibly more ruthless) leader to take over. Iran has a nuclear weapon now. Control the strait is as good as a nuke. It gives Iran leverage that it didn't have before. Incredible leverage. Personally, I don't think that it's going to alleviate until either after November 2026 or unless there is a total takeover and invasion of Iran. And I just don't see that happening.

 

[aupmanyav]

Even if Iran had a nuclear weapon, it would not have helped it. Can it bomb Israel or any other country? Can US or Russia bomb any country? We have had two wars with Pakistan. We both have some 160-200 nuclear bombs. Did we use them? Wars have to be fought with conventional weapons.

Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.

Do they have another option? Trump threatening to wipe Iran civilization. They have to react as hard as they can.
Trump wants an honorable exist. Do the Iranians not want an honorable exist?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You sound like Hamas leadership.

More like Churchill or Roosevelt. My point is that we should not capitulate to the islamofascists just because oil prices went up some.

Capitulation would only be on the cards if they had attacked you. It was the other way around. America attacked, and Iran refused to capitulate. America then realised that she had no plan for that entirely predictable eventuality.

Iran is a cancer to which the left is playing don't look up. They have unquestionably killed millions through the various groups they support, it would not surprise me if the total was in the tens of millions. And the idiot did not understand why the world keeps kicking the can about it and went in totally stupid. That doesn't make Iran not a cancer.

 

[laughing dog]

You sound like Hamas leadership.

More like Churchill or Roosevelt. My point is that we should not capitulate to the islamofascists just because oil prices went up some.

Capitulation would only be on the cards if they had attacked you. It was the other way around. America attacked, and Iran refused to capitulate. America then realised that she had no plan for that entirely predictable eventuality.

Iran is a cancer to which the left is playing don't look up. They have unquestionably killed millions through the various groups they support, it would not surprise me if the total was in the tens of millions. And the idiot did not understand why the world keeps kicking the can about it and went in totally stupid. That doesn't make Iran not a cancer.

The question is how to treat the cancer with the best chance of survival and good health of the host. No one here is arguing Iran is in the right, so there is no basis for these rants of yours.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I was listening to a Mideast expert on NPR.
He said it was naive to think that JD or anyone could solve this problem with one meeting.
After nearly 50 years of bad choices, it is way too complicated to fix easily.

It took years for the JCPOA to be agreed to. To expect to come to a larger agreement in less than 24 hours is pure stupidity.

We are being run by morons who think they are the smartest people in the room.

It took years of pressure to "do something" to produce a stupid agreement that didn't actually do any good. We have been taking the path of appeasement for decades.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The USA will blockade the Strait of Hormuz in order to force Iran to open the Strait of Hormuz.

Does anyone else find that confusing?

It makes perfectly good sense if you actually pay attention.

Iran is using civilian-flagged vessels for terrorist purposes to block the strait. To stop this we need to ensure their disguised combatants do not have access. We aren't blocking everything.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Many leftist atheists, including on this forum, have a soft-spot for Islam.

. Really? Who and how soft?

On this forum there have definitely been posters saying nonsense like how Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam.

How is that having a "soft-spot"? At this time, in the US, Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam.

I agree. It mostly has to do with proximity. If we lived in Saudi Arabia, the reverse would likely be true.

The math: Threat is risk. Risk = a convolution of probability x severity. Probability is correlated to proximity.

Example: even if sharia could be worse for women in the US, the probability that Christo-fascists remove some women's rights is far far greater in the US, than Muslims implementing sharia in the US.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The USA will blockade the Strait of Hormuz in order to force Iran to open the Strait of Hormuz.

Does anyone else find that confusing?

Iran is only blockading enemy ships, their allies are allowed through "for a small fee". We are essentially threatening to copy what they are doing, and cut off access to the Strait altogether. Presumably unless "for a small fee". The difference being that they aren't our waters, so when we do it, it's piracy.

Quit drinking the kool-aid.

That "small fee" last I heard was $2 million.

And they are not just blockading their waters, but also waters belonging to other nations.

And it's not just enemy ships, but any ships other than theirs. And in general you can't deny civilian passage through your waters if no alternative exists.

 

[Politesse]

That "small fee" last I heard was $2 million.

Why do you think I put it in quotes?

And they are not just blockading their waters, but also waters belonging to other nations.

They dispute the status of the Strait. Almost no one agrees with them, but they have an argument. We do not have any conceivable right to the Strait, disputed or otherwise. On what legal basis can the US claim the right to engage in piracy on the Strait? It adjoins no territory of ours.

And it's not just enemy ships, but any ships other than theirs. And in general you can't deny civilian passage through your waters if no alternative exists.

So you agree that the US is engaging in piracy when we do the exact same activity, but with even less justification?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

People aren't working around the Strait of Hormuz for Urea, Gas, Oil. It isn't that simple!

They are shipping around the horn of Africa instead of through the Mediterranean. Capitalism always finds a way.

<Hits RVonse over the head with a map>

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) Because Iran will do exactly what China asks them to do. Iran and China are not just allies, Iran is mostly sub servant to China just like the US is sub servant to Zionist Israel.

2) The rest of the world is slowly making other plans for trade other than the Strait of Hormuz. Thus the longer this goes on, the less important is the Strait of Hormuz

I'm not saying I agree what Trump is doing. But I can at least understand the leverage he hopes to gain.

No.

1) China certainly has influence, but they're hardly under Chinese control.

2) We aren't subservant to Israel. Rather, we very much want to keep the situation over there from going nuclear. That's why we got involved in 1973--the Arab nations were an extinction threat to Israel and they would have used their bombs rather than die. It's not so imminent but we are facing the same sort of situation now, except with Iran being the one trying to wipe them out.

I do not like the current mess one bit. But I think mushroom clouds would be a lot worse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Moreover, the Strait of Hormuz is Iranian and Omanian waters. While the UN International Convention on the Law of the Seas indicates ships of transit rights, Iran claims since it never ratified it, they can charge tolls. The USA has no such claim.

I don’t know if Iran is correct. Regardless, Politesse’s argument suggests there is a legal basis but does not suggest approval.

Iran has no power to charge tolls on ships in Omanian waters.

 

[laughing dog]

The USA will blockade the Strait of Hormuz in order to force Iran to open the Strait of Hormuz.

Does anyone else find that confusing?

It makes perfectly good sense if you actually pay attention.

Iran is using civilian-flagged vessels for terrorist purposes to block the strait. To stop this we need to ensure their disguised combatants do not have access. We aren't blocking everything.

The news reports I see indicates we are blocking pretty much everything. We are doing Iran's work for them.