Yet another war, this time with Iran

[Gospel]

Loren, your analogies have an impressive ability to make perfect sense right up until they're exposed to another human being.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seriously?

Tigers!, is that true? That Instagram post is what you were calling the equivalent of telling Israel to "lie back and think of England"?

Look at the time.

It is in effect telling Israel to abandon it's hostages. Don't defend yourself when attacked. Sounds an awful lot like lie back and think of England--when you're being raped.

 

[laughing dog]

Seriously?

Tigers!, is that true? That Instagram post is what you were calling the equivalent of telling Israel to "lie back and think of England"?

Look at the time.

It is in effect telling Israel to abandon it's hostages. Don't defend yourself when attacked. Sounds an awful lot like lie back and think of England--when you're being raped.

I didn’t get that sense at all. One what textual basis do you base your interpretation?

 

[Gospel]

Seriously?

Tigers!, is that true? That Instagram post is what you were calling the equivalent of telling Israel to "lie back and think of England"?

Look at the time.

It is in effect telling Israel to abandon it's hostages. Don't defend yourself when attacked. Sounds an awful lot like lie back and think of England--when you're being raped.

I didn’t get that sense at all. One what textual basis do you base your interpretation?

If the goal isn't to produce results but to produce results that other people can reproduce, why the fuck are you even asking?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Unlike most circumstances, I don't see this one as having many shades of grey. To me it's not a matter of Israel's government being above criticism. Rather, it's the right of a nation to exercise its right to defend itself against a relentless enemy that exercises the most hateful and violent policies over its own people and then extends that violence and hate towards a liberal democracy.

October 7 was unprovoked and shocking in its scope and execution. The response of the American left was and still is shocking. Everything that the left and atheists in particular are supposed to stand for has been ground down to hypocritical dust.

While I can appreciate truth in that there were some on the left that support Palestine and feel they have a right to self-defense, that was not the broad conclusion of The Left. My niece made some uncomfortable statements online and I did my best to correct her point of view, which is tainted by the fact that she isn't old enough to remember the Arab Wars, the suicide bombings. All she knows is what has happened recently, and that is a Palestine that has effectively gone feral politically in part due to Israeli and Iranian decisions. So I did my best to provide that broader understanding.

But her position clearly wasn't mine and I am quite to the left as it is.

It is indeed reasonable to hold governments responsible, so why is Hamas held to no standard while Israel is held to impossible standards? I cannot help but see hypocrisy and antisemitism as core elements of this support.

Hamas wasn't allowed to be a government, by anyone. I was suppose the only person that thought the UN, Israel, US, etc... messed up royally with Hamas winning the election. That was an opportunity and forcing Hamas to become inclusive with politics. Instead, everyone said 'feck off' and that was that.

The most important thing would be categorize who supports the rights of the Palestinians "to live" v. who supports the Palestinians right to "defend themselves" v. who support the actions of Hamas. This thing is an onion, and trying to lump this all into one group is ignorant. And then there is the history and understanding the history. The older someone is, the more they understand a broader story arc here. People who are 20... weren't even alive when the suicide bombings were happening in Israel. For the life of me, I don't know why you jump to anti-Semitism when ignorance of history is a more clear thing happening now. You label them all as anti-Semites, instead of trying to help them understand what in the heck has been going on.

So I'm supposed to teach 20th century history to young people online?

Yes. If you think the honest expression of ideas and trying to correct things you think are wrong is outside the scope of being on the Internet... what are you doing here?

Sorry, but it's incumbent on the individual to educate themselves; to ask the basic questions of when, where, who, and why.

Embrace the ignroance!

With respect to anti-semitism, there are hundreds of examples of Jewish students being harassed, threatened, and even assaulted on American college campuses directly due to the conflicts in the ME.

Sure, anti-Semitism is a thing. I didn't say it didn't exist. I said that automatically judging someone questioning Israeli military decisions or supporting a viable standard of living for the Palestinians isn't necessarily mired in anti-Semitism. There were people in America that cheered the attack on Israel, partied even. Those people, likely anti-Semitic.

Professors have conducted themselves similarly. Some students have gone so far as to hide their Jewish identity in order to avoid being singled out.

That sounds historically familiar to me. I don't know how else to see this thing as anything but anti-semitism being endorsed by a significant portion of the left.

That is your problem. I'm sorry you are incapable of understanding perspectives or even what another person thinks.

With respect to the DNC, they deserve credit for speaking out against this, but extremist dissent has unfortunately watered down any unified policy damning what's happening. The DNC needs to exorcise these voices from the party.

They should. Of course, it wouldn't require remotely as much as cleansing it from the GOP and their media empire.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And yet if Israel reponds to terrorism in any way they are accused of disappropriate response or war crimes etc.

This is bullshit.

Israel has responded to terrorism in the past under many different Prime Ministers and Administrations. It wasn't accused of committing acts of genocide when it didn't kill tens of thousands of civilians sheltering in places where Israel told them to go. It wasn't accused of committing war crimes when IDF soldiers weren't killing unarmed people trying to surrender, or tying civilians to the front of their trucks and driving around Mad Max style, or murdering paramedics and ambulance drivers traveling in a convoy to rescue wounded civilians with permission from Israeli authorities, or shooting people waiting in line for food, or targeting journalists, or other actual, genuine war crimes.

You haven't been paying attention. Israel is always accused of wrongdoing every time they hit anyone.

On the other hand, ignoring collateral consequences of the attacks on Hamas... Israel bombed and targeted Hamas for how long... and Hamas still exists. You keep supporting actions that you have admitted won't work. The only action that will is the defanging of Hamas via Iran.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, the topic is Israel, so Israel should be expected to come up. Laughing Dog makes a viable opinion indicating that there is a tremendous amount of support for Israel and that criticism a decision by the Israeli military or Government isn't defaulting to anti-Semitism. People love to use terms of bigotry to shut other people up. The people doing this blame blacks for doing the same thing, calling all things "racism" when it is just "disparate outcomes".

You pretend it's not defaulting to antisemitism, but look at the reaction to that letter from Australia--not seeing how horrible it is means antisemitism is the default view.

You do not have to stay mute but you have spent 1000's of words castigating Israel and the Israeli response.

I wrote after 9/11 that in the future the misery must be remembered as the attack on 9/11, not our response to it. Israel's response to Hamas became somewhat repetitive and pointless after 18+ months. The West gave Israel a blank check. Even Canada looked the other way after 10/7. But Netanyahu's military response was clearly leading to a no where goal. And after one or two years, at some point, need to stop because what has been achieved? Mossad's attack on Hezbollah was substantial and relatively clean. And yet Hezbollah still exists. Israel has failed in eradicating Hezbollah and Hamas with bombs, missiles, and bullets.

The primary goal was to get the hostages back. The war ended when that was accomplished, but Hamas keeps skirmishing.

How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th? Or what needs to be done to stop Hezbollah shelling northern Israel?

Getting Iran to stop funding it. And oddly enough, there is an agreement that could have involved that. Of which the GOP and Trump have not put a dyne of pressure on Iran to do that! laughing dog is a red herring. What laughing dog says here is irrelevant. The GOP and Trump have a moment in which they could press for this, and they aren't touching it with a 1000 meter long pole. All this bullshit about how the liberals are anti-Semites, and we see where the GOP actually stands on Israel!

There has never been an agreement that would have involved not funding Hamas. Nothing even close.

 

[Gospel]

The primary goal was to get the hostages back. The war ended when that was accomplished, but Hamas keeps skirmishing.

The "primary goal" was never the only goal. From the outset, Israel's stated objectives included securing the release of the hostages, dismantling Hamas's military and governing capabilities, demilitarizing Gaza, and ultimately enabling an alternative Palestinian leadership to take its place.

What I don't understand is why you keep invoking Israel and the Jewish people to support arguments that neither the Israeli government, nor much of the Israeli public, is actually making. You're arguing here as though Israel's position is simply "get the hostages back and call it a day," when that has not been the stated position throughout this conflict.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, the topic is Israel, so Israel should be expected to come up. Laughing Dog makes a viable opinion indicating that there is a tremendous amount of support for Israel and that criticism a decision by the Israeli military or Government isn't defaulting to anti-Semitism. People love to use terms of bigotry to shut other people up. The people doing this blame blacks for doing the same thing, calling all things "racism" when it is just "disparate outcomes".

You pretend it's not defaulting to antisemitism, but look at the reaction to that letter from Australia--not seeing how horrible it is means antisemitism is the default view.

Please elaborate both the letter you are specifically speaking of and the anti-Semitism in it.

You do not have to stay mute but you have spent 1000's of words castigating Israel and the Israeli response.

I wrote after 9/11 that in the future the misery must be remembered as the attack on 9/11, not our response to it. Israel's response to Hamas became somewhat repetitive and pointless after 18+ months. The West gave Israel a blank check. Even Canada looked the other way after 10/7. But Netanyahu's military response was clearly leading to a no where goal. And after one or two years, at some point, need to stop because what has been achieved? Mossad's attack on Hezbollah was substantial and relatively clean. And yet Hezbollah still exists. Israel has failed in eradicating Hezbollah and Hamas with bombs, missiles, and bullets.

The primary goal was to get the hostages back. The war ended when that was accomplished, but Hamas keeps skirmishing.

Do you actually believe the "primary goal" of the bombings was to get the hostages back?

The primary goal was retribution. I get it. Nothing particularly wrong there. All the western world got it too. And looked the other way as Israel did what they felt was necessary. Mossad enacted the Hezbollah communication plot as well. But none of that was going to get hostages returned. And the bombings went on longer than needed to effect the return of the remaining hostages. The attacks could have ended at 12 months with the same result.

How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th? Or what needs to be done to stop Hezbollah shelling northern Israel?

Getting Iran to stop funding it. And oddly enough, there is an agreement that could have involved that. Of which the GOP and Trump have not put a dyne of pressure on Iran to do that! laughing dog is a red herring. What laughing dog says here is irrelevant. The GOP and Trump have a moment in which they could press for this, and they aren't touching it with a 1000 meter long pole. All this bullshit about how the liberals are anti-Semites, and we see where the GOP actually stands on Israel!

There has never been an agreement that would have involved not funding Hamas. Nothing even close.

Sure and Jordan and Egypt would always be at war with Israel too.