You deserve to be raped

[Derec]

Jesus christ, you don't think the fact that the girl killed herself was any indication that it might have been rape rape?

It might have been, but suicide has no probative value as far as whether it was rape or not. Maybe she felt guilty that the teacher got into trouble on her account. Maybe she was bullied over the encounter/case. Or maybe she was actually raped. We can't know that based on her killing herself.
From the end of the CNN article:

Authorities said Rambold had sexual relations with Morales in fall 2007, when she was 14 and a student in one of his classes at Billings Senior High. She confided in a church group leader, and Rambold was charged in October 2008.

"Had sexual relations" sounds more like statutory than real to me. And the fact that he was arrested and charged based on her confiding in a church group might have led to either bullying or her feeling guilty that he was in big trouble.
So do you have any actual information about what happened in that case or not?

Unfortunately the use of "rape culture" is also about cheap outrage rather than examining the complexities of cases like this one.

 

[Derec]

Is this where we repeat the conversation we had a few weeks ago, and nobody budges on their position again? I guess human issues are a cyclical thing, so..

Well Toni brought up a case and I pointed out the details of the case are murky and asked her if she had better/more info. Very civil so far. No hint of trench warfare.

 

[ksen]

Is this where we repeat the conversation we had a few weeks ago, and nobody budges on their position again? I guess human issues are a cyclical thing, so..

Pretty much.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

eta: oh, but there's no such thing as "rape culture."

One nutter isn't a culture.

- - - Updated - - -

eta: oh, but there's no such thing as "rape culture."

Street preachers saying stupid shit is not evidence of "rape culture".

It most assuredly evidence of "a rape culture". Perhaps not a pervasive one, but those who agree that a rape victim is even partially responsible for her/his rape adhere to that "rape culture" because no one deserves to be raped. No one.

One person does not make a culture.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Don't forget the judges too. They've also been known to engage in some rape apologia.

Not so much rape apologia but realization that proof beyond a reasonable doubt is necessary and that one can't simply take the accuser's testimony for truth a priori.

And some judges are mighty lenient even when the rapist confesses:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/justice/montana-rape-sentence/

Baugh's comments at the sentencing in August sparked controversy. He said the girl looked older than her years and was "probably as much in control of the situation as was the defendant," according to the Montana attorney general's office, which appealed the sentence.
In Wednesday's decision, the state Supreme Court ruled that Baugh used an inapplicable statute to impose the 31-day sentence. When read properly, Montana law mandates a minimum four-year prison sentence -- with a suspension of no more than two years -- for the rape of children under 16 by someone at least three years older, the court ruled.

Since he raped his 14 year old student, it is highly likely he actually knew how old she was. Not that appearing older is justification for raping anybody. Except to rape apologists.

Looking at news reports he's saying she was a willing participant. Thus this is a case of statutory rape (we really need a different term here!) rather than actual rape. Since it was statutory rape her age most certainly does matter.

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Jesus christ, you don't think the fact that the girl killed herself was any indication that it might have been rape rape?

Or maybe both things stem from a deeper cause. Perhaps she was molested--it caused both her willingness to have sex with him and her suicide.

 

[Sabine Grant]

One nutter isn't a culture.

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eta: oh, but there's no such thing as "rape culture."

Street preachers saying stupid shit is not evidence of "rape culture".

It most assuredly evidence of "a rape culture". Perhaps not a pervasive one, but those who agree that a rape victim is even partially responsible for her/his rape adhere to that "rape culture" because no one deserves to be raped. No one.

One person does not make a culture.

One person, indeed, does not make a culture. However it is the reasoning behind rape victims who meet X or Y conditions being partially responsible which is a serious issue. Not only it is a serious issue because it suggests that she/he is an accessory to the crime but it can only increase the feeling of shame and guilt so common among rape victims. IMO, that is where the term "rape culture" finds its source : when the victim is viewed as partially responsible. Such mentality can only undermine the empathy we should all experience for rape victims.

 

[bilby]

Is this where we repeat the conversation we had a few weeks ago, and nobody budges on their position again? I guess human issues are a cyclical thing, so..

Sorry, I forgot, are we in the 'Israel/Palistine' thread, the 'rape' thread or the 'minimum wage' thread? Because it seems clear to me that it was the Palestinians who started this by wearing mini-skirts, and we can't solve the problem by paying them $1million an hour.

 

[laughing dog]

The term "rape culture" as it has come to be used is about claiming that this "rape culture" is a pervasive one. So what supposedly constitutes it is taken to be much broader than the example in the OP - if you doubt a rape claim, that's "rape culture". If you think college students accused of rape deserve due process, that's "rape culture". If you think that simply having drunken sex doesn't mean the girl was raped that is an example of "rape culture". I've even read anti-porn feminists claim that porn itself is an example of "rape culture". As such, I find the term completely meaningless.

Since no one here wrote about a pervasive rape culture, besides your response confusing your straw man understanding with actual use, it is also off point.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Don't forget the judges too. They've also been known to engage in some rape apologia.

Not so much rape apologia but realization that proof beyond a reasonable doubt is necessary and that one can't simply take the accuser's testimony for truth a priori.

And some judges are mighty lenient even when the rapist confesses:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/justice/montana-rape-sentence/

Baugh's comments at the sentencing in August sparked controversy. He said the girl looked older than her years and was "probably as much in control of the situation as was the defendant," according to the Montana attorney general's office, which appealed the sentence.
In Wednesday's decision, the state Supreme Court ruled that Baugh used an inapplicable statute to impose the 31-day sentence. When read properly, Montana law mandates a minimum four-year prison sentence -- with a suspension of no more than two years -- for the rape of children under 16 by someone at least three years older, the court ruled.

Since he raped his 14 year old student, it is highly likely he actually knew how old she was. Not that appearing older is justification for raping anybody. Except to rape apologists.

Looking at news reports he's saying she was a willing participant.

We have here a situation with one party who represents authority (teacher) over his students (14 year old). I suppose " he is saying" that there is no exploitative rapport in that situation? Of course, it is an exploitative rapport when you have such disparity between the position of both parties(unbalance of power), let alone such disparity in their mental and emotional maturity. This Judge is an idiot for thinking that the girl was "probably as much in control of the situation as was the defendant".

Thus this is a case of statutory rape (we really need a different term here!) rather than actual rape. Since it was statutory rape her age most certainly does matter.

- - - Updated - - -

Jesus christ, you don't think the fact that the girl killed herself was any indication that it might have been rape rape?

Or maybe both things stem from a deeper cause. Perhaps she was molested--it caused both her willingness to have sex with him and her suicide.

Willingness as in being the party in the position of vulnerability due to the power and authority position of the teacher? I am not sure how anyone can define sex obtained in such exploitative situation as being the product of "willingness".

 

[laughing dog]

It most assuredly evidence of "a rape culture". Perhaps not a pervasive one, but those who agree that a rape victim is even partially responsible for her/his rape adhere to that "rape culture" because no one deserves to be raped. No one.

One person does not make a culture.

Unless you are making the absurd claim that this "person" is the only person who has those thoughts, your response is not relevant.

 

[Mumbles]

I heard about this.

And my only response would be to stand directly next to these assholes, and to hold up a sign saying "No you don't!", in nice, bright letters.

He's wrong, the end, everyone deserves to know that a lot of us guys disagree fundamentally with this BS. I don't argue with idiot street preacher directly (after all, they're more practiced at yelling than I am), but on a matter like this, I'll note my complete disagreement.

 

[Unbeatable]

eta: oh, but there's no such thing as "rape culture."

Street preachers saying stupid shit is not evidence of "rape culture".

Right, it's not the fact that this guy's saying stupid shit. It's the fact the stupid shit he's saying has been said before by countless others about countless other rapes. He's repeating memes. If he'd said something more unique, like that she deserved to be raped because she didn't put her penguins in order, then it'd just be one nutter saying stupid shit.

 

[doubtingt]

eta: oh, but there's no such thing as "rape culture."

Street preachers saying stupid shit is not evidence of "rape culture".

Right, it's not the fact that this guy's saying stupid shit. It's the fact the stupid shit he's saying has been said before by countless others about countless other rapes. He's repeating memes. If he'd said something more unique, like that she deserved to be raped because she didn't put her penguins in order, then it'd just be one nutter saying stupid shit.

There are many more people who disagree with this guy, so I guess that means we also have an "anti-rape culture". In fact, on almost any issue there are probably multiple persons who hold a position and others who hold an opposing position. So, we have about a billion "X cultures" and a billion "anti-X cultures".
Makes "culture" a rather meaningless and non-explanatory concept.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One person, indeed, does not make a culture. However it is the reasoning behind rape victims who meet X or Y conditions being partially responsible which is a serious issue. Not only it is a serious issue because it suggests that she/he is an accessory to the crime but it can only increase the feeling of shame and guilt so common among rape victims. IMO, that is where the term "rape culture" finds its source : when the victim is viewed as partially responsible. Such mentality can only undermine the empathy we should all experience for rape victims.

This guy is scum, no question.

What nobody is showing is a group in which this attitude is widespread, without that I don't see how it's an argument for the existence of rape culture.

 

[ksen]

Just visit any MRA website.

 

[Sabine Grant]

One person, indeed, does not make a culture. However it is the reasoning behind rape victims who meet X or Y conditions being partially responsible which is a serious issue. Not only it is a serious issue because it suggests that she/he is an accessory to the crime but it can only increase the feeling of shame and guilt so common among rape victims. IMO, that is where the term "rape culture" finds its source : when the victim is viewed as partially responsible. Such mentality can only undermine the empathy we should all experience for rape victims.

This guy is scum, no question.

What nobody is showing is a group in which this attitude is widespread, without that I don't see how it's an argument for the existence of rape culture.

I do not think there is a defined a distinct group who cultivates the notion that the victim under condition X or Y, he/she is partially responsible for the crime committed against them. However, such way of *thinking* is not uncommon. And it is found among both genders.

I can tell you for example that the reason why I never told my parents I had been raped is because I knew they would treat me as a culprit. Both of them died without ever knowing.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I do not think there is a defined a distinct group who cultivates the notion that the victim under condition X or Y, he/she is partially responsible for the crime committed against them.

GOP Males Allowed To Speak In Public While Debating Rape's Impact On Abortion Rights?

Is that a discrete group or just an event-based form of temporary insanity?

 

[Bronzeage]

One person, indeed, does not make a culture. However it is the reasoning behind rape victims who meet X or Y conditions being partially responsible which is a serious issue. Not only it is a serious issue because it suggests that she/he is an accessory to the crime but it can only increase the feeling of shame and guilt so common among rape victims. IMO, that is where the term "rape culture" finds its source : when the victim is viewed as partially responsible. Such mentality can only undermine the empathy we should all experience for rape victims.

This guy is scum, no question.

What nobody is showing is a group in which this attitude is widespread, without that I don't see how it's an argument for the existence of rape culture.

This works only if our definition of "rape culture" is flexible enough to exclude this sort of thing. Rape culture is the concept that a woman can entice a man to rape her and she bares the blame for his crime. "You deserve to be raped," is a pretty blatant expression of this concept.

I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

 

[Unbeatable]

eta: oh, but there's no such thing as "rape culture."

Street preachers saying stupid shit is not evidence of "rape culture".

Right, it's not the fact that this guy's saying stupid shit. It's the fact the stupid shit he's saying has been said before by countless others about countless other rapes. He's repeating memes. If he'd said something more unique, like that she deserved to be raped because she didn't put her penguins in order, then it'd just be one nutter saying stupid shit.

There are many more people who disagree with this guy, so I guess that means we also have an "anti-rape culture". In fact, on almost any issue there are probably multiple persons who hold a position and others who hold an opposing position. So, we have about a billion "X cultures" and a billion "anti-X cultures".
Makes "culture" a rather meaningless and non-explanatory concept.

Well, it's not as though "rape culture" is a serious anthropological or sociological concept. It's political rhetoric. You could come up with a more technically accurate term to refer to the actual thing that rape culture proponents are talking about, but it probably wouldn't be concise enough for a hash tag or image macro. I think you and I have probably had this discussion before. We're in agreement about the fact that the way the the phrase "rape culture" is used implies the existence of an "anti-rape culture" and in general implies a broader meaning of the term "culture" than is used in real academia. Our only disagreement IIRC was that you have some sort of moral objection to this while I don't.

 

[doubtingt]

eta: oh, but there's no such thing as "rape culture."

Street preachers saying stupid shit is not evidence of "rape culture".

Right, it's not the fact that this guy's saying stupid shit. It's the fact the stupid shit he's saying has been said before by countless others about countless other rapes. He's repeating memes. If he'd said something more unique, like that she deserved to be raped because she didn't put her penguins in order, then it'd just be one nutter saying stupid shit.

There are many more people who disagree with this guy, so I guess that means we also have an "anti-rape culture". In fact, on almost any issue there are probably multiple persons who hold a position and others who hold an opposing position. So, we have about a billion "X cultures" and a billion "anti-X cultures".
Makes "culture" a rather meaningless and non-explanatory concept.

Well, it's not as though "rape culture" is a serious anthropological or sociological concept. It's political rhetoric. You could come up with a more technically accurate term to refer to the actual thing that rape culture proponents are talking about, but it probably wouldn't be concise enough for a hash tag or image macro. I think you and I have probably had this discussion before. We're in agreement about the fact that the way the the phrase "rape culture" is used implies the existence of an "anti-rape culture" and in general implies a broader meaning of the term "culture" than is used in real academia. Our only disagreement IIRC was that you have some sort of moral objection to this while I don't.

My main objection is that it is an intellectually vacuous notion that detracts from any reasoned and meaningful investigation into or discussion about rape and its causes and solutions. If its immoral to do things that impede progress in dealing with rape, they I guess espousing such intellectually vacuous rhetorical would be immoral.