You find yourself in the cretaceous

[bilby]

... snip ...

And if you are right, then the departing traveller's matter is destroyed - so there's your source of at least some of the necessary energy.

There containment of that energy being only a minor technical concern to be worked out..

Hey, it's time travel. Not only is it likely to be expensive, it's probably not going to be very easy, either.

 

[bilby]

Creating matter isn't difficult. It happens all the time - at CERN, humans do it regularly.

It needs a lot of energy, but nobody suggested that time travel would be cheap.

And if you are right, then the departing traveller's matter is destroyed - so there's your source of at least some of the necessary energy.

Matter is not created by breaking up existing matter.

I never suggested that it was.

Matter that makes up me in the past is scattered all over the place.

That's OK. The protons and electrons don't have your name on them. They're interchangeable parts. Indeed, the matter that makes up you today isn't the same matter that made up you last year.

Somehow all that matter needs to be created new without injuring me.

Yes. Or collected from the environment in the past.

Time travel is an utterly ridiculous irrational hypothesis that is not possible.

And yet it happens constantly at the subatomic level. Your disapproval of an idea has zero impact on its possibility.

It is fantasy, not science.

All science starts out as fantasy. They're not exclusive categories.

 

[untermensche]

... snip ...

And if you are right, then the departing traveller's matter is destroyed - so there's your source of at least some of the necessary energy.

There containment of that energy being only a minor technical concern to be worked out..

Hey, it's time travel. Not only is it likely to be expensive, it's probably not going to be very easy, either.

You talk about time travel as if you actually know something about it.

Humans cannot create matter.

They can't move back to some configuration of matter that does not exist anymore.

 

[bilby]

Hey, it's time travel. Not only is it likely to be expensive, it's probably not going to be very easy, either.

You talk about time travel as if you actually know something about it.

Yeah, that's because I do.

Humans cannot create matter.

Yes, they really can.

They can't move back to some configuration of matter that does not exist anymore.

Not yet, no.

 

[untermensche]

That's OK. The protons and electrons don't have your name on them. They're interchangeable parts. Indeed, the matter that makes up you today isn't the same matter that made up you last year.

My nervous system is the exact same matter.

You can't get around this.

To go back in time = creating matter.

Impossible.

 

[untermensche]

They can't move back to some configuration of matter that does not exist anymore.

Not yet, no.

So you claim the configuration of matter that we call the past still exists out there somewhere?

Another absurd idea.

 

[bilby]

That's OK. The protons and electrons don't have your name on them. They're interchangeable parts. Indeed, the matter that makes up you today isn't the same matter that made up you last year.

My nervous system is the exact same matter.

That's simply not true. Although it might explain a lot about your fixed mindset if it were.

You can't get around this.

I don't need to get around it. Your lack of imagination isn't any kind of problem for me.

To go back in time = creating matter.

Or perhaps reconfiguring matter at the destination time. But it might require creating matter.

Impossible.

Don't tell me, tell Einstein. Matter can be and is routinely created and destroyed.

 

[skepticalbip]

... snip ...

And if you are right, then the departing traveller's matter is destroyed - so there's your source of at least some of the necessary energy.

There containment of that energy being only a minor technical concern to be worked out..

Hey, it's time travel. Not only is it likely to be expensive, it's probably not going to be very easy, either.

I figured that the containment would probably only be a minor technical detail... after all, we contain energy all the time just not quite that much all at once. But I agree time travel would be expensive, I just thought the expense would be in working out how to reliably target a specific point on the t-axis then get there... or would that be, 'get then'?

 

[untermensche]

That's simply not true. Although it might explain a lot about your fixed mindset if it were.

It is the same cells in my nervous system this year as last.

I don't need to get around it. Your lack of imagination isn't any kind of problem for me.

Yes. You can ignore this and irrationally think the utterly impossible is possible.

That IS possible.

To go back in time = creating matter.

Or perhaps reconfiguring matter at the destination time. But it might require creating matter.

What does that even mean?

A carbon atom in my brain existed a thousand years ago. But of course it existed as part of some other thing.

So if I go back in time a thousand years that same carbon atom in my brain is also existing somewhere else. And there is no possible way to know where.

Don't tell me, tell Einstein. Matter can be and is routinely created and destroyed.

No it isn't.

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.

 

[skepticalbip]

Don't tell me, tell Einstein. Matter can be and is routinely created and destroyed.

No it isn't.

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.

Interesting that you quote Thermodynamics but deny that matter can be changed to energy and energy to matter.

 

[untermensche]

No it isn't.

Interesting that you quote Thermodynamics but deny that matter can be changed to energy and energy to matter.

There is a totality of matter/energy in the universe.

To move atoms that exist today into the past where they also existed is to add to the matter/energy of the universe.

To think you can just make the atoms in the past go away is thinking you can decrease the matter/energy in the universe.

Impossible.

 

[bilby]

It is the same cells in my nervous system this year as last.

But not the same matter. The atoms making up those cells are constantly turned over.

Yes. You can ignore this and irrationally think the utterly impossible is possible.

That IS possible.

Oh, don't worry, I fully intend to ignore your lack of imagination.

To go back in time = creating matter.

Or perhaps reconfiguring matter at the destination time. But it might require creating matter.

What does that even mean?

Reconfiguring existing matter into a human being. It's another thing we observe happening all the time. Where did you think all these people came from?

A carbon atom in my brain existed a thousand years ago. But of course it existed as part of some other thing.

Sure.

So if I go back in time a thousand years that same carbon atom in my brain is also existing somewhere else. And there is no possible way to know where.

That's OK. It doesn't have a tag sewn on with your name and elementary school class. Any carbon atom will do.

Don't tell me, tell Einstein. Matter can be and is routinely created and destroyed.

No it isn't.

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.

Yes. So matter can be created by the use of energy. It's something we do routinely (for example at CERN).

 

[bilby]

No it isn't.

Interesting that you quote Thermodynamics but deny that matter can be changed to energy and energy to matter.

There is a totality of matter/energy in the universe.

To move atoms that exist today into the past where they also existed is to add to the matter/energy of the universe.

To think you can just make the atoms in the past go away is thinking you can decrease the matter/energy in the universe.

Impossible.

It's irrelevant whether it's possible; It's unnecessary.

You are not your atoms, and your atoms are not you. Assemble existing atoms in the exact same pattern as the atoms you are made of, and you have an exact copy of you indistinguishable in any way from the original. You don't need to take your atoms with your name tags on them with you, you can just build a new you from the atoms that you find when you get there.

 

[untermensche]

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.

Yes. So matter can be created by the use of energy. It's something we do routinely (for example at CERN).

You can't add or subtract from the totality of matter/energy in the universe.

Taking an atom from today into the past is adding to the totality of matter/energy in the universe. Impossible.

Saying you can just get rid of the atom in the past is claiming to be able to subtract from the totality of matter/energy in the past. Also impossible.

Fantasy. Not science or any potential science.

 

[untermensche]

There is a totality of matter/energy in the universe.

To move atoms that exist today into the past where they also existed is to add to the matter/energy of the universe.

To think you can just make the atoms in the past go away is thinking you can decrease the matter/energy in the universe.

Impossible.

It's irrelevant whether it's possible; It's unnecessary.

You are not your atoms, and your atoms are not you. Assemble existing atoms in the exact same pattern as the atoms you are made of, and you have an exact copy of you indistinguishable in any way from the original. You don't need to take your atoms with your name tags on them with you, you can just build a new you from the atoms that you find when you get there.

You can't add to the totality of matter/energy in the universe.

Not in the present and not in the past.

Taking a person into the past is adding to the totality of matter/energy in the universe.

And you have no magic way to subtract some matter/energy to make it possible.

 

[untermensche]

This is not even addressing the absurd notion that the configurations of matter/energy in the past exist somewhere so you can return to them.

The configurations of matter/energy in the past are gone. Gone forever.

They are not out there floating around in some other dimension.

That is too absurd to even imagine an adult could believe it.

 

[bilby]

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.

Yes. So matter can be created by the use of energy. It's something we do routinely (for example at CERN).

You can't add or subtract from the totality of matter/energy in the universe.

Taking an atom from today into the past is adding to the totality of matter/energy in the universe. Impossible.

Saying you can just get rid of the atom in the past is claiming to be able to subtract from the totality of matter/energy in the past. Also impossible.

Fantasy. Not science or any potential science.

Why not just 'get rid of' it by bringing it now?

Even if I were to accept your objection (which I don't despite the overwhelming evidence of both "nuh" AND "-uh" that you have presented), what stops your time machine from simply bringing back an equal quantity of mass/energy to the future, to balance the books?

 

[skepticalbip]

This is not even addressing the absurd notion that the configurations of matter/energy in the past exist somewhere so you can return to them.

The configurations of matter/energy in the past are gone. Gone forever.

They are not out there floating around in some other dimension.

That is too absurd to even imagine an adult could believe it.

Einstein would tend to disagree with your understanding of 'reality'.

Albert Einstein once wrote: People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. Time, in other words, he said, is an illusion. ...

Past, present, and future all exist in uncle Al's block universe.

 

[untermensche]

You can't add or subtract from the totality of matter/energy in the universe.

Taking an atom from today into the past is adding to the totality of matter/energy in the universe. Impossible.

Saying you can just get rid of the atom in the past is claiming to be able to subtract from the totality of matter/energy in the past. Also impossible.

Fantasy. Not science or any potential science.

Why not just 'get rid of' it by bringing it now?

Even if I were to accept your objection (which I don't despite the overwhelming evidence of both "nuh" AND "-uh" that you have presented), what stops your time machine from simply bringing back an equal quantity of mass/energy to the future, to balance the books?

I did not invent the idea that there is a totality of matter/energy in the universe that can't be added to or subtracted from by humans.

You assume the past is out there somewhere and there is some way to get there.

More total absurdities.

The past is just a different configuration of the matter/energy in the present.

It is not out there anywhere.

Everything that made up the past is still here. It isn't somewhere else also.

 

[bilby]

This is not even addressing the absurd notion that the configurations of matter/energy in the past exist somewhere so you can return to them.

*someWHEN

The configurations of matter/energy in the past are gone. Gone forever.

Just as the location I drove away from is gone. Just as daddy is gone when he puts his hands in front of his face. Just as the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Trall is gone when you wrap your towel around your head.

They are not out there floating around in some other dimension.

No, obviously. They're in the same dimension they always were.

That is too absurd to even imagine an adult could believe it.

Your claims of absurdity, for concepts that only you have subscribed to, really don't constitute a workable argument for or against anything.

But don't worry, I wasn't planning to invite you to come along anyway.