You have to seek God with your heart!

[Underseer]

Variations of this argument come up a lot when I discuss apologetics with Christians or Muslims. This is perhaps one of the most revealing arguments they make. In order to find their truth claims true, I have to "seek God with my heart" before examining the evidence.

In other words, I have to want the conclusion to be true before I examine the evidence for whether or not the conclusion is true. It's an incredibly obvious  appeal to emotion/ begging the question (circular logic) fallacy such that I wonder none of them notice, but this argument is made to me with such regularity that I can only conclude that most of them don't understand what's wrong with this argument.

Wanting things to be true doesn't make them true.

Honestly, you should have figured that out as a toddler when cookies didn't magically appear in your hand.

If you question the existence of electrons, I don't require you to want to believe electrons are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

If you question the existence of elephants, I don't require you to want to believe elephants are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

If you question the existence of the Germ Theory of Disease, I don't require you to want to believe that some microorganisms can communicate disease before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

If you question whether or not the Sun rises in the East, I don't require you to want to believe that the Sun rises in the East before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

If you question whether or not laws against murder exist, I don't require you to want to believe that the laws are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

I don't need you to be in a particular state of mind for any of the above because the evidence is such that you will be compelled to believe whether you want those things to be true or not. That is the nature of truth. But if I want you to believe that Christianity or Islam are true, then I need you to be in a particular state of mind before you can look at the evidence. You need to want the conclusion to be true before you look at the evidence for whether or not the conclusion is true.

If you need  confirmation bias to convince someone that something is true, either it's not true or you have a very bad understanding of the supporting evidence.

 

[phands]

Well said....and because of the utter lack of evidence, they also add Special Pleading to the list of Logical Fallacies.

Anyway.....since the heart has no cognitive function, seeking god "with your heart" just means that there's no thought involved.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Anyway.....since the heart has no cognitive function, seeking god "with your heart" just means that there's no thought involved.

Oh, but there is.
AFTER you believe, then there's a lot of mental capacity dedicated to rationalizing the belief despite the lack of evidence, or in the face of counter evidence.

 

[Underseer]

Well said....and because of the utter lack of evidence, they also add Special Pleading to the list of Logical Fallacies.

Anyway.....since the heart has no cognitive function, seeking god "with your heart" just means that there's no thought involved.

Oh, there is thought involved, just not thought that is conducive to ascertaining the truth. This is pretty much a recipe for leading someone into confirmation bias, a form of sloppy thinking humans are all too prone to indulge already.

Or what Keith said.

 

[phands]

Oh, but there is.
AFTER you believe, then there's a lot of mental capacity dedicated to rationalizing the belief despite the lack of evidence, or in the face of counter evidence.

Well said, sir! I concede the point - I should have said "no rational or coherent thought".

 

[Learner]

Variations of this argument come up a lot when I discuss apologetics with Christians or Muslims. This is perhaps one of the most revealing arguments they make. In order to find their truth claims true, I have to "seek God with my heart" before examining the evidence.

In other words, I have to want the conclusion to be true before I examine the evidence for whether or not the conclusion is true. It's an incredibly obvious  appeal to emotion/ begging the question (circular logic) fallacy such that I wonder none of them notice, but this argument is made to me with such regularity that I can only conclude that most of them don't understand what's wrong with this argument.

Hey... I'm sure there are people that want sci-fi gap filling : Higgs-field, multi -dimensions or dark-matter to be true

Besides, I thought with my head first (rethinking the arguments I used against Christians) and then the heart followed so to speak. That's the problem with your argument in this regard.

Wanting things to be true doesn't make them true.

Theists agree (I know not all)

Honestly, you should have figured that out as a toddler when cookies didn't magically appear in your hand.

Let the toddlers be toddlers I say. They love being told stories and soon grow up.

If you question the existence of electrons, I don't require you to want to believe electrons are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

No questions from me here.

If you question the existence of elephants, I don't require you to want to believe elephants are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

If you question the existence of the Germ Theory of Disease, I don't require you to want to believe that some microorganisms can communicate disease before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

If you question whether or not the Sun rises in the East, I don't require you to want to believe that the Sun rises in the East before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

If you question whether or not laws against murder exist, I don't require you to want to believe that the laws are real before showing you the evidence. I just show you the evidence.

I understand what you're trying to say but I'll just state the obvious from the heart. All the above is known in the bible.

 

[Rhea]

I love how you bolded what exists in the bible here. disease exists, but noy germ theory. Sun rises, but not in the east (bible also claims it standa still in the sky, BTW.

You say scientists exist who start with believing, and the scientific method exposes them. You know that. It’s not a successful practice of how to know.

 

[Learner]

I love how you bolded what exists in the bible here. disease exists, but noy germ theory. Sun rises, but not in the east (bible also claims it standa still in the sky, BTW.

Germ theory , black holes or wi-fi , isn't mentioned. But you love ... suspicion, it seems (what ever it seems to you).

You say scientists exist who start with believing, and the scientific method exposes them. You know that. It’s not a successful practice of how to know.

It was regards to "Wanting to be true" i.e. filling the gaps with imaginative ideas, adding to the incomplete theoretical notions.

 

[Lion IRC]

I can't think of any bible verse which says you have to seek Him.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I can't think of any bible verse which says you have to seek Him.

True. I think the saying came about because no one has seen god for thousands of years, so they required some witty phrase to cover for it.

 

[phands]

I can't think of any bible verse which says you have to seek Him.

True. I think the saying came about because no one has seen god for thousands of years, so they required some witty phrase to cover for it.

No one has *ever* seen god, because god doesn't exist.

 

[Underseer]

I can't think of any bible verse which says you have to seek Him.

That doesn't matter. I want criticizing a passage from the Bible, I was criticizing a common argument used by both Christians and Muslims. If you want to criticize a Bible passage, please start a separate thread.

 

[southernhybrid]

Besides, I thought with my head first (rethinking the arguments I used against Christians) and then the heart followed so to speak. That's the problem with your argument in this regard.

Finally, an honest Christian who admits that his beliefs are based on his emotions. I applaud you for your honesty. Unlike some atheists, I totally understand and accept that some people need to believe in a god or gods to be happy. As for me, I don't need any gods to be happy or good, and I prefer to use my emotions to show love and compassion toward other people, and animals too, especially my dogs. Dogs are the best. And you know what dog is when it's spelled backwards, right? Yeah. Dog is god! My heart led me to my belief in dogs.

 

[Underseer]

Besides, I thought with my head first (rethinking the arguments I used against Christians) and then the heart followed so to speak. That's the problem with your argument in this regard.

Finally, an honest Christian who admits that his beliefs are based on his emotions. I applaud you for your honesty. Unlike some atheists, I totally understand and accept that some people need to believe in a god or gods to be happy. As for me, I don't need any gods to be happy or good, and I prefer to use my emotions to show love and compassion toward other people, and animals too, especially my dogs. Dogs are the best. And you know what dog is when it's spelled backwards, right? Yeah. Dog is god! My heart led me to my belief in dogs.

It's hardly reasonable.

Emotions are not a valid basis for evaluating truth claims. That's not how truth works. That's not how people who care about the truth evaluate truth claims.

 

[Lion IRC]

I can't think of any bible verse which says you have to seek Him.

That doesn't matter. I want criticizing a passage from the Bible, I was criticizing a common argument used by both Christians and Muslims. If you want to criticize a Bible passage, please start a separate thread.

I don't want to do that. I'd rather criticise your position in this thread.
You don't HAVE to seek God.

 

[WAB]

I can't think of any bible verse which says you have to seek Him.

That doesn't matter. I want criticizing a passage from the Bible, I was criticizing a common argument used by both Christians and Muslims. If you want to criticize a Bible passage, please start a separate thread.

I don't want to do that. I'd rather criticise your position in this thread.
You don't HAVE to seek God.

I believe, or it seems to me, that Underseer's point is not that people must or "have" to seek God, but that since God cannot be proved or discovered empirically He must be sought and discovered by other means, i.e: feeling rather than intellect.

Pardon me if I've got you wrong on that, U.

Kierkegaard wrote: “to have faith is precisely to lose one's mind so as to win God.” - from The Sickness Unto Death. And Soren was a devout Christian.

 

[Lion IRC]

I like Kierkegaard. He was so often playful and satirical with language.
Knowing God is transcendent ecstasy and can easily be likened to losing your mind.
"Precisely" like losing your mind?
I wouldn't quote Kierkegaard as an authority on literal meanings.

 

[Jobar]

I can't think of any bible verse which says you have to seek Him.

Lots of threats concerning what happens if you don't, though. The Koran is worse than the Bible in that regard, but neither is slow to damn those who lack proper belief.

Hey... I'm sure there are people that want sci-fi gap filling : Higgs-field, multi -dimensions or dark-matter to be true

I expect you're right. Those who think of and publish theories in any field of science don't like to be proved wrong. Who does?

But there's a difference between believing your scientific theory is true, and believing your religion is true. A proper scientist always tries to consider all the things that might lead him into error, and will accept it if other scientists show him an error he didn't consider. (I won't say scientists always do this gracefully, but they do it anyway.) Science involves putting your hypotheses out in public, and let others attempt to shoot holes into your ideas. It may be that small holes can be patched, and the hypothesis modified to be more bulletproof; but no matter how beautiful your theory, you don't cling to it if ugly facts demonstrate it's mistaken.

You can't say that most religious believers do that with their theories concerning God. (Though I do give you credit, Learner, for coming here and listening to our criticisms. I even grant that credit to Lion; though I have to say he's an extremely slow learner. )

 

[WAB]

I like Kierkegaard. He was so often playful and satirical with language.
Knowing God is transcendent ecstasy and can easily be likened to losing your mind.
"Precisely" like losing your mind?
I wouldn't quote Kierkegaard as an authority on literal meanings.

No, indeed, Lion, I wouldn't either! I mentioned the quote because I thought it might be an apt paraphrase to what Underseer may have been trying to get across, even though Kierkegaard comes at the same idea through hard-earned faith, and not the reverse.

If the quote had come from an atheist, it would sound like mockery.

By the way, I only recently took a good look at your avatar. I take it to be St Peter, who I believe wanted to be crucified upside-down?

Some people have taken my avatar, which I use everywhere, to be the Madonna. It's actually an early C20 photo of a Toda woman and her baby: the photo struck me hard when I first saw it and I haven't been able to forget it. The Toda people are a tiny tribe in India. /derail

 

[phands]

Rubbing salt in the wound...

2 Chronicles 15:13
and whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

Amos 5:4-6
For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel, "Seek Me that you may live".

Amos 5:5-6
"But do not resort to Bethel And do not come to Gilgal, Nor cross over to Beersheba; For Gilgal will certainly go into captivity And Bethel will come to trouble.
"Seek the LORD that you may live, Or He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, And it will consume with none to quench it for Bethel


Matthew 6:31-33
"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?' "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

Luke 12:29-31
"But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. "And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. "For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things.