Your opinion on Christian member participation

[DrZoidberg]

1) Without disagreement there's not discussion. This is a discussion forum. Christians spice it up.

2) I like drive-by fundamentalists crashing in burning. I miss Syed. I know it doesn't reflect well on me. But for an atheist it's nice to see a caricature of a religious person making a fool of themselves. I wonder what happened to Syed? Did he get banned?

3) The rule against proselytizing we have here is good. While it's good to welcome people with differing opinions, there's got to be a discussion. Proselytizing is not a discussion.

4) It's a good way to measure if we're correct or not. I want my atheism tested. The only way to know if my opinions on this is correct is by having them challenged.

5) There's been quite a few atheist members on the various atheist forums I've been a member of where they first came to try to talk us into joining their religion and they ended up losing their faith and becoming an atheist. While I am not a missionary for atheism I do like to leave this door open.

I say keep it as it is.

 

[Rhea]

Okay, let’s hear from you. Do you think Christians should be allowed to post anything related to their faith on this forum in the appropriate areas? Or should they only be allowed to post secular messages? Maybe you think they shouldn’t be allowed here at all.

I have given you several options to choose from, and I am really interested in seeing what the result will be.

So it looks like the votes are consistent with the forum rules. All topics are welcome for discussion. They get stopped when they devolve to mudslinging or preaching. Other than that - marketplace of ideas.

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Now...Hope this isn't a derail, but...what if Jesus HIMSELF begins to post here? You are aware, his followers have told us this might happen. Does HE get a pass on the proselytizing? If he damns some of us, are the moderators going to ban him? If the moderators then get damned, are we going to have their back? I like to think I stand for free expression, but there was that damn fig tree that pissed off Jesus... Christians, can you give us any pointers on this? Forewarned is forearmed.

 

[Politesse]

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

The unremitting hostility can be a bit confusing if you aren't used to it.

Christians, can you give us any pointers on this? Forewarned is forearmed.

He'd be in more danger from us than from you, I'm sure. Jesus fans are worse than Star Wars fans.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Okay, let’s hear from you. Do you think Christians should be allowed to post anything related to their faith on this forum in the appropriate areas? Or should they only be allowed to post secular messages? Maybe you think they shouldn’t be allowed here at all.

I have given you several options to choose from, and I am really interested in seeing what the result will be.

So it looks like the votes are consistent with the forum rules. All topics are welcome for discussion. They get stopped when they devolve to mudslinging or preaching. Other than that - marketplace of ideas.

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

Actually, no - this is what I expected.

I was just doing a compare/contrast between the members of this forum and another private forum I belong to which is a Christian forum. I have made the argument there that they should not ban atheist members or discussion, but haven't been making any headway. Some of the members of that forum suggested that I poll the members of this forum and was convinced that it would go entirely the opposite direction.

I admit that I am looking forward to their reactions when I tell them these results

Ruth

 

[Rhea]

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

Actually, no - this is what I expected.

I was just doing a compare/contrast between the members of this forum and another private forum I belong to which is a Christian forum. I have made the argument there that they should not ban atheist members or discussion, but haven't been making any headway. Some of the members of that forum suggested that I poll the members of this forum and was convinced that it would go entirely the opposite direction.

I admit that I am looking forward to their reactions when I tell them these results

Ruth

Oooh! Let us know, I would be interested what they think.
Also, invite them here. They can ask questions and also visit the humor forum and discover we are gentle beings.

 

[Rhea]

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

The unremitting hostility can be a bit confusing if you aren't used to it.

Kind of like a young male engineer walking into a room full of female engineers and feeling very uncomfortable, blissfully unaware that he is finally feeling for the first time what all of us have felt for decades? Yes, it is unnerving for them, I have seen that.

But "unremitting hostility" is perhaps not a factual conclusion, it just seems that way when one is in the minority for the first time in their life. For the rest of us, it is "another Tuesday as a minority."

Given the number of Christians that have been banned from here, versus the number of atheists who have been banned from Christian fora, I'm thinking "unremitting hostility" does not mean what you think it means. Just my opinion.

Christians have plenty of experience that should have made them "used to it," they were just on the giving end the whole time and never noticed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Now...Hope this isn't a derail, but...what if Jesus HIMSELF begins to post here? You are aware, his followers have told us this might happen. Does HE get a pass on the proselytizing? If he damns some of us, are the moderators going to ban him? If the moderators then get damned, are we going to have their back? I like to think I stand for free expression, but there was that damn fig tree that pissed off Jesus... Christians, can you give us any pointers on this? Forewarned is forearmed.

Would that be proselytizing, though?

 

[Rhea]

Now...Hope this isn't a derail, but...what if Jesus HIMSELF begins to post here? You are aware, his followers have told us this might happen. Does HE get a pass on the proselytizing? If he damns some of us, are the moderators going to ban him? If the moderators then get damned, are we going to have their back? I like to think I stand for free expression, but there was that damn fig tree that pissed off Jesus... Christians, can you give us any pointers on this? Forewarned is forearmed.

Would that be proselytizing, though?

Why would it NOT be proselytizing? Unless he was using the Socratic method?

 

[Politesse]

Kind of like a young male engineer walking into a room full of female engineers and feeling very uncomfortable, blissfully unaware that he is finally feeling for the first time what all of us have felt for decades? Yes, it is unnerving for them, I have seen that.

But "unremitting hostility" is perhaps not a factual conclusion, it just seems that way when one is in the minority for the first time in their life. For the rest of us, it is "another Tuesday as a minority."

Most Christians who post on TFT are also religious minorities. You yourself often attempt to "throw the Book at me", trying to shame me for my various heresies and supposed hypocrisies, presumably spitting out by rote whatever version of the faith you learned as a child. That being the case, do you think the average Christian church community would do any differently? They came by those opinions the same way you did. and they never escaped even halfway.

But by unremitting hostility, I meant, angry personal attacks and so forth, not just numerical minority, though it is true that these are often connected. These don't come from all posters, some are quite friendly. But it is an unfortunate flaw in our psychology that the feeling of being attacked is a much stronger emotion than that of being treated kindly. It does not therefore take very many nasty people to make a whole environment seem hostile.

Personally, I've never seen "doing unto others as they did to me" as a very healthy or worthwhile life goal.

 

[Brian63]

Now...Hope this isn't a derail, but...what if Jesus HIMSELF begins to post here? You are aware, his followers have told us this might happen. Does HE get a pass on the proselytizing? If he damns some of us, are the moderators going to ban him? If the moderators then get damned, are we going to have their back? I like to think I stand for free expression, but there was that damn fig tree that pissed off Jesus... Christians, can you give us any pointers on this? Forewarned is forearmed.

Would that be proselytizing, though?

Why would it NOT be proselytizing? Unless he was using the Socratic method?

If it was the version of Jesus who had flown off into heaven and no earthly body remained, would it be even possible to commit an ad hominem (criticizing the person rather than the argument...but since he is not a person...???) fallacy against him? I think the admins and mods here would have to allow for some latitude and bending of the rules then.

 

[Lion IRC]

Responding to questions and challenges about your religion is not proselytizing.

And if a bunch of atheists just want to sit around in an echo chamber questioning and challenging Christianity, without allowing any counterpoints, that's intellectually gutless. (Asymmetric rules of engagement.)

Very glad to see that so far, 100% of votes favor equality of AvT free speech and a free contest of ideas.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I wouldn't ban Jesus, or Hercules or Zeus, only moderate their discussion. Lots of christians have told me about the magic they've witnessed so let's hear it from the big kahunas too. There aren't any tables to flip over.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

Actually, no - this is what I expected.

I was just doing a compare/contrast between the members of this forum and another private forum I belong to which is a Christian forum. I have made the argument there that they should not ban atheist members or discussion, but haven't been making any headway. Some of the members of that forum suggested that I poll the members of this forum and was convinced that it would go entirely the opposite direction.

I admit that I am looking forward to their reactions when I tell them these results

Ruth

Oooh! Let us know, I would be interested what they think.
Also, invite them here. They can ask questions and also visit the humor forum and discover we are gentle beings.

This all came about because there were conversations about growing that little private forum. It probably has a few dozen members total, and the activity level is low. I brought up the idea of opening registration to the world at large, including those from other faiths and atheists. Currently registration is only offered to those who have been referred by a member in good standing.

I already invited them to come and visit this forum. Don’t know if any of them did that or registered since no one has said anything to me about it. I told them as long as they followed the forum rules and showed respect to members like they would on their own forum, they wouldn’t have any problems.

But I guess I pushed too far. I got a formal warning because after showing them the results of this poll and hearing their comments on it, I said something about how they acted like just being around atheists would cause them to lose their faith – when the atheists were not even slightly afraid of being around Christians for the converse reason.

It never ceases to amaze me how insular some believers can be. The majority on that forum still strongly hold the position that atheists are not welcome, so there will be no change in their rules. I pointed out that Jesus and the disciples actively engaged those who did not believe so why should we isolate ourselves from the outside world?

So I have stepped in it once again. Oh well. I have been excommunicated from better places in the past so it doesn’t really worry me. Maybe, just maybe, I have had an effect on someone who is afraid to say anything publicly but will remember this conversation and change their attitude.

Ruth

 

[Worldtraveller]

Kind of like a young male engineer walking into a room full of female engineers and feeling very uncomfortable, blissfully unaware that he is finally feeling for the first time what all of us have felt for decades? Yes, it is unnerving for them, I have seen that.

But "unremitting hostility" is perhaps not a factual conclusion, it just seems that way when one is in the minority for the first time in their life. For the rest of us, it is "another Tuesday as a minority."

Most Christians who post on TFT are also religious minorities. You yourself often attempt to "throw the Book at me", trying to shame me for my various heresies and supposed hypocrisies, presumably spitting out by rote whatever version of the faith you learned as a child. That being the case, do you think the average Christian church community would do any differently? They came by those opinions the same way you did. and they never escaped even halfway.

But by unremitting hostility, I meant, angry personal attacks and so forth, not just numerical minority, though it is true that these are often connected. These don't come from all posters, some are quite friendly. But it is an unfortunate flaw in our psychology that the feeling of being attacked is a much stronger emotion than that of being treated kindly. It does not therefore take very many nasty people to make a whole environment seem hostile.

Personally, I've never seen "doing unto others as they did to me" as a very healthy or worthwhile life goal.

This is why Poli's not fun to 'debate' about his religious beliefs. As noted above, they're boring (compared to a lot of the mainstream and various wingnuts in the US, especially).

I've often noted that I'd rather hang out with moderate religious people that have similar political beliefs, than right wing atheists.

 

[Politesse]

Kind of like a young male engineer walking into a room full of female engineers and feeling very uncomfortable, blissfully unaware that he is finally feeling for the first time what all of us have felt for decades? Yes, it is unnerving for them, I have seen that.

But "unremitting hostility" is perhaps not a factual conclusion, it just seems that way when one is in the minority for the first time in their life. For the rest of us, it is "another Tuesday as a minority."

Most Christians who post on TFT are also religious minorities. You yourself often attempt to "throw the Book at me", trying to shame me for my various heresies and supposed hypocrisies, presumably spitting out by rote whatever version of the faith you learned as a child. That being the case, do you think the average Christian church community would do any differently? They came by those opinions the same way you did. and they never escaped even halfway.

But by unremitting hostility, I meant, angry personal attacks and so forth, not just numerical minority, though it is true that these are often connected. These don't come from all posters, some are quite friendly. But it is an unfortunate flaw in our psychology that the feeling of being attacked is a much stronger emotion than that of being treated kindly. It does not therefore take very many nasty people to make a whole environment seem hostile.

Personally, I've never seen "doing unto others as they did to me" as a very healthy or worthwhile life goal.

This is why Poli's not fun to 'debate' about his religious beliefs. As noted above, they're boring (compared to a lot of the mainstream and various wingnuts in the US, especially).

I've often noted that I'd rather hang out with moderate religious people that have similar political beliefs, than right wing atheists.

Boring, I can definitely live with.