How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Jayjay]

And the last point, that Russia has nothing to gain, is silly. They intend to crush the morale of the enemy.

Maybe it is silly for finnish army. But for russian it's pretty obvious that would be stupid to murder people indiscriminately because they would be prosecuted by russian authorities for that.

Haha. Let's see how many of these killers are prosecuted by Russian authorities. My guess is zero.

Maybe zero, but be assured they will get no pay and no pension.
Sorry dude. We know for a fact that ukrainian army is behind of some (really all) of these atrocities and none can be even remotely attributed to russians.

Show me one atrocity by Ukrainian army against civilians? Just to gauge what you consider to be a level of evidence required for something to be a "fact" (or "an atrocity").

I'm guessing, that by applying the same standard, the massacres of Bucha and Borodyanka are incontrovertible facts also.

Russia is winning militarily. Winning armies don't generally commit atrocities especially if it is a professional army and not a gang consisting of convicted criminals.

Winning armies don't generally retreat either.

As for convicted criminals...

Russia is now enlisting convicted prisoners for the war with Ukraine - the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine

VALENTINA ROMANENKO - FRIDAY, MARCH 11, 2022, 09:27

www.pravda.com.ua

 

[barbos]

Show me one atrocity by Ukrainian army against civilians? Just to gauge what you consider to be a level of evidence required for something to be a "fact" (or "an atrocity").

Last time I had it shown, moderators deleted it.
I mean ukrainians are not even denying it, they were proud of killing of women.

 

[barbos]

As for convicted criminals...

The site is Ukrainian, banned in Russia and 100% lie.
Everything there is a lie and ukrainian propaganda, you should know better.
It does not even make sense for russia to do that. There is not enough convicted criminals who can be integrated into professional army. It's propaganda garbage designed for ukrainians. that's laughable. Russian Army is professional now, you need to teach and train people for some time before sending them and expecting them to be effective.
In fact it's laughable even for Ukraine to do that. But they did it, because their regime is desperate.

 

[zorq]

It's typical of conspiracy theories to grasp at straws like this: that someone who "should have" seen something or said something, didn't.

Give me a fucking break!

It wouldn't be a just punishment for a cheerleader for a murdering fascist dictator to get the break that I have in mind. Eh, Barbos? But that's the point. It takes an immoral evil fuck to go and murder innocent people just because they think a NAZI is lurking nearby. And it takes an an immoral evil fuck to try to justify that sort of behavior.

 

[barbos]

zorq, nice avatar man
You should put it on your car, house and yourself

 

[marc]

It seems to me that ever since Trump got into office, and showed that he could blatantly and obviously lie with no consequences, that terrible people are hardly even trying to lie convincingly. Between the GQP, Putin, and their various representatives the propaganda has gotten so pathetic that it would make Bagdad Bob embarrassed.

Anyone else feel this way?

 

[Jayjay]

This idea of omnipotent Russia that can kill anyone anywhere on a whim has clearly been shown false.

No, it has not been shown that at all. What has been shown is that Russia is not willing to tolerate huge civilian and infrastructure losses during this operation. And we know why - because they would need to to rebuildit once it part of Russia, plus it does not look good for propaganda. Your fucking own generals are surprised why Russia is not bombing railroads and stuff.

That only applies to the territory it intends to keep and defend. Russian military supply lines need railroads just as much Ukraine does. Civilian infrastructure... not so much.

But my comment was referring to assassinations, not armies.

I agree with you that this was the original plan. But it needn't involve Zelensky. If everything had gone according to plan, Zelensky would have been either killed or run away from the country, and some puppet installed in his place.

What do you agree to?

What you wrote:

"The plan I understand is to grab land with pro-russian population and force Zelensky to agree to that and to neutral status of the rest."

I agree that this was the plan. Still is, but with maybe a little bit less land (pending possible victories in the East), and "neutral status" downgraded from being a complete puppet to just staying out of NATO.

Let's say that somehow, his "own people" are riddled with secret Nazi spies. At this point, Zelensky is one of Ukraine's biggest assets. How long do you think arms would keep flowing if he was killed and replaced by Hitler McNaziface? It makes no sense to kill him even if there was such a conspiracy.

The moment Zele says "OK, it's time to surrender" he is a dead man.
That's not what I think, that's what your western analysts and russians as well think.
That's what they think.

Now, your stupid arms are useless garbage, you can't get it to the battlefield. You can't even get to secretly store somewhere. Russia has pretty much total control over air. And very soon Ukraine will run out of people willing to fight.

Dead Zele was never in any plans.

Whatever rocks your boat. Putin failed to kill Zelensky, but it wasn't for lack of trying.

You're right about the rest. I still don't personally think Ukraine will win this war. But they may have secured better terms of surrender than they would have gotten if Russia had been able to depose of Zelensky and capture Kyiv. Ukraine might even get to keep Odessa or Kharkiv.

What happens to Zelensky afterwards is up in the air. Putin wants him dead for revenge. And some Ukrainian nationalists will want him dead because he surrenders (regardless of what the terms are). The dilemma is that while the war is going, Ukraine has to tell its people that it can win, to keep up morale. But the people who negotiate the truce know the real situation. Finland was in the same position at the end of the war with Soviets: the leadership had to make a 180-degree turn from "we'll fight you until we win" to "we're BFFs now". But that was a time when government could control the media and the narrative. This isn't the case with Ukraine. The surrender is going to be a really hard sell.

 

[Jayjay]

You're a hoot. Russian army has demonstrated its lack of professionalism in places like Bucha,

Fuck, stop acting as if it was not proven that ukrainian nazis are behind Bucha

It has been proven. You didn't address any of the points I made to support that fact:

1. Dead bodies shown in satellite images weeks before.
2. Multiple witnesses saying the same thing, many losing family members or friends.
3. Complete lack of witness testimonies to the contrary.

If you say the Russians didn't do it, why would the survivors say they did? Are they all nazis who want to make Russia look bad? And if they are, why did the alleged nazi ninja death squads kill their families then, their own people?

 

[barbos]

But my comment was referring to assassinations, not armies.

Russia is perfectly capable of precision strikies of government places in Kiev.
Whether or not Zelensky is there is irrelevant, message is relevant.
Compare what US did with Iraq. They fucking started with it.

 

[barbos]

1. Dead bodies shown in satellite images weeks before.

This is evidence of fakery. because bodies on the video are fresh. And again, your fucking mayor was not made aware of that for weeks now?

2. Multiple witnesses saying the same thing, many losing family members or friends.

Fucking lies!
The same kind of lies you (the west) perpetrated about maternity ward. Where the same instagram cunt was dressed to appear as different women. The same cunt which was caught on camera getting food from ...... russian soldiers.
The same kind of lies BBC manufactured about chemical attacks in Syria.
And then flat out denied when they were caught with their pants down.

Complete lack of witness testimonies to the contrary.

That's not evidence
Speaking of which, do you know what else is lacking? Any videos prior to April 4
Every one has a cellphone and no videos of actual massacre.
Bodies are lying around in the center of the road for weeks not burried, russians are in town driving in their tanks around these bodies for weeks. No pictures or reports.
Stop smoking shit you are smoking. It's either 100% fake or ukrainians did it.
I think 100% is more likely. No wonder even some of your politicians are quietly asking for ukrainian government to prove they are not behind it.
Even fucking Pentagon is telling to senile Biden "Ehhhh, not so fast Mr. President"

Sorry man, you lost again. The same way you lost argument with City Hall bombing.

Russian army is a paid professional army who were specifically warned about that kind of crap and they behave accordingly.

 

[zorq]

zorq, nice avatar man
You should put it on your car, house and yourself

Why bother? Russian fucks will happily murder me wearing the civilian clothes, car, and house I'm in right now!

Keep Cheering for them man! And remember, YOU are the good guy!

 

[barbos]

zorq, nice avatar man
You should put it on your car, house and yourself

Why bother? Russian fucks will happily murder me wearing the civilian clothes, car, and house I'm in right now!

Keep Cheering for them man! And remember, YOU are the good guy!

Yes, you are the bad guys.

 

[zorq]

zorq, nice avatar man
You should put it on your car, house and yourself

Why bother? Russian fucks will happily murder me wearing the civilian clothes, car, and house I'm in right now!

Keep Cheering for them man! And remember, YOU are the good guy!

Yes, you are the bad guys.

Do you know why you haven't been able to convince ANYONE that Russia are the good guys? And I mean Nobody! Yes, you, personally! And you've been here for YEARS! Here is a hint: It's the same reason all those former Soviet republics prefer the West. It's the same reason Ukraine rejected Putin's puppet in 2013. It's not because America "paid" us to hate Russia.

You can't convince anyone that Russia is the good guy because Russia's actions speak for themselves. You could be the best political spin doctor on the planet but you can't spin a pile of shit into a rainbow. And that's all we've got when we look at Putin's Russia. A stinking pile of shit.

Even China refused to stand by Russia this time. Didn't you notice? Oh, they would love to pull some imperialist BS too, but they have the sense to smell the shit and stand back.

WE AREN'T GULLIBLE! If you are looking for gullible marks, check the mirror.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

zorq, nice avatar man
You should put it on your car, house and yourself

Why bother? Russian fucks will happily murder me wearing the civilian clothes, car, and house I'm in right now!

Keep Cheering for them man! And remember, YOU are the good guy!

Yes, you are the bad guys.

You have no idea how much death Putin is responsible for at this point... and if the numbers are right... he is responsible for more dead Russian soldiers than Ukrainians, a lot more (a lot of young kids who had no place fighting in an invasion). An invasion that went so poorly, Russia needs to reroute troops and consolidate in to try and take the east half of Ukraine.

Regardless, you shouldn't be posting here at the moment anyway, it isn't safe for you.

 

[Jayjay]

I noticed you didn't address any of the actual evidence that points to the Kramatorsk missile strike being done by Russia.

You have not provided any!

I showed evidence that Russia uses Tochka-U in Ukraine.

There is also video of a Russian convoy with Tocha-U missiles in Belarus:



Clearly the Russian claim that they don't use Tochka-U's is a lie.

You didn't mention it yet, but in twitter there are claims that the serial number on the missile is close to ones allegedly used by Ukraine in Donbas before the current invasion. That maybe strongest evidence yet for Ukrainian origin, but A) how should we know that serial numbers of Russian Tochka-U's are not also in the same range, and B) what if these missiles were captured from Ukrainian forces?

And it is you who did not address what I provided. And It was not all, There is way more in the youtube discussion. Specifically they noticed position of the booster which points toward ukrainian held territory as a launch site.

That's debatable. The booster separates from the payload high up in the air. It could land anywhere.

Also, the orientation of the booster on the ground implies it was fired from southeast, from Russian-occupied territory. That could be just as random as the position though.

Then of course there are other corroborating evidence: sightings of missile launches near Shakhtarsk, Russian telegram groups celebrating the hit, and warnings a few days prior for Russian-speaking people to stay out of railroads. And also, that it would be complete idiocy for Ukraine to hit a railroad hub in a city that they control. Even if you believe they don't care about the human lives, they still need those rails to deliver supplies and reinforcements. If the idea was to kill civilians, they could've targeted a hospital or a residential building.

Just like with MH17, it's not any single piece of evidence that seals the deal, but a lot of different evidences that point to the same direction and are consistent with each other. In both cases, that direction is Russia.

 

[Jayjay]

But it's still already very high compared to the last 8 years.

And your point is?

The point is that if the current killing spree is supposed to be revenge for Donbas, it's utterly unproportional. But of course overall that's a very poor justification, because Russia is responsible for both the 2014 and 2022 invasions. Even the deaths caused by Ukrainian counter-attacks are the fault of the aggressor.

 

[Elixir]

zorq, nice avatar man
You should put it on your car, house and yourself

Hey, welcome back, @barbos!
How was the reprogramming?

You have to be impressed with how quickly Ukranians can construct fake scenes of murder and mayhem wherever Russian troops have been. I mean, MINUTES after they're gone, those clever Ukrainians have the entire fake scene set up, filmed and distributed around the world!
If the Russian army was one tenth that efficient, they would have taken Kyiv in a couple of days, instead of running out of food and fuel and being killed on the road by the tens of thousands.
Oh well - if there's one commodity that Russia will never run out of, it's expendable bodies.

 

[Elixir]

Maybe it is silly for finnish army. But for russian it's pretty obvious that would be stupid to murder people indiscriminately because they would be prosecuted by russian authorities for that.

... like THAT has ever happened.
Can you say "Aleppo"?

 

[Elixir]

Wow, what a morning blitz - over thirty posts full of Pootey poop from @barbos, after going missing for most of the duration of the failed Russian invasion.
Looks like the reprogramming really took!

 

[Jayjay]

Fuck, stop acting as if it was not proven that ukrainian nazis are behind Bucha

FUCK! FUCK! FUCK! Stop acting like the murdering invaders of Ukraine are murdering, raping, and pillaging for just cause!

Even this stupid NAZI excuse is weak and pathetic.

View attachment 38089

When is Russia going to invade "liberate"this evil hotbed of NAZI activity?

Yeah, 25 year old pictures. Bill Clinton was a president and he was a big "friend" of Russia
You keep stepping in the same shit

There are more recent examples:



Or this guy:

Both example are from Donbas, the latter is from 2015 I believe. This is because FSB used Russian neo-nazis as cannon fodder early in the 2014 conflict: when arrested in Russia, they were given a choice between going to jail or to help prop up the "people's republics". Many nazis were recruited this way from ranks of RNU for example.

Both sides have a few card-carrying nazis fighting for them. Ukraine maybe more because in Russia it's not hip to openly glorify Hitler, but ideologically the Russian brand of fascism is much worse.