Biden administration announces partial student loan forgiveness

[Metaphor]

The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.

Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.

The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.

Childish of them.

Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.

 

[Metaphor]

If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.

Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.

And, these bonds don't have interest rates and the principal does not need to be paid back?

Why tax people at all if we can just issue bonds?

 

[bigfield]

If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.

Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.

And, these bonds don't have interest rates and the principal does not need to be paid back?

Why tax people at all if we can just issue bonds?

I was just pointing out that there is in fact another way to forgive loans without having less money to spend on other things.

You don't need to believe it's the correct course of action.

 

[Politesse]

Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.

I would agree if they were, say, taking out a business loan to start a risky venture. But education is considered an inherent right by the entire civilized world; it should never have been the target of predatory loan tactics and academic price gouging in the first place. I'm not going to hold someone morally accountable for a bill that by right they should never have been charged.

Especially if those debts are becoming a threat to the entire economic structure of the nation and the value of its currency. "Fairness" will be of little comfort if the whole system falls to pieces.

 

[Toni]

Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.

I would agree if they were, say, taking out a business loan to start a risky venture. But education is considered an inherent right by the entire civilized world; it should never have been the target of predatory loan tactics and academic price gouging in the first place. I'm not going to hold someone accountable for a bill that by right they should never have been charged.

Particularly loans that were taken out by 18 year olds who are only considered to be legal adults in the US because it means we can draft them and hand down adult length sentences, in return for which, they can vote and take in ruinous student debt that they have neither the maturity nor the experience, to fully understand. This, btw, is recognized by other lenders who won’t write say, a mortgage loan for an 18 year old.

I say: forgive most student debt, if not all of it and the state and federal government needs to step up its responsibility to fund education so that is truly affordable to all.

I write this as someone who never had a student loan to pay off and who, instead of taking trips to Europe or buying myself a vacation home on a lake—or both— instead paid almost all costs of her kids’ undergrad education, not just willingly but gladly. And feel bad that I couldn’t pay for law school without jeopardizing retirement.

So my skin in this game is moving just a tiny bit closer to a fair and just society. My kids won’t directly benefit, and I won’t but it’s the right thing to do.

For those who are all up in arms about kids getting ‘useless ‘ degrees: I agree. Let’s go after the for profit schools who lure vulnerable people in with promises of a quick and easy and affordable degree that is the key to financial security but in reality is expensive and nearly useless.

 

[Metaphor]

Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.

I would agree if they were, say, taking out a business loan to start a risky venture. But education is considered an inherent right by the entire civilized world;

Is it? How do you define 'civilised'? Where does the 'right' to education stop? Evidently not at high school?

it should never have been the target of predatory loan tactics and academic price gouging in the first place. I'm not going to hold someone morally accountable for a bill that by right they should never have been charged.

So, if you are not holding people morally accountable, shouldn't you personally be paying back their loans?

Especially if those debts are becoming a threat to the entire economic structure of the nation and the value of its currency. "Fairness" will be of little comfort if the whole system falls to pieces.

That's complete nonsense. Student debts have not made the US economy 'fall to pieces'.

 

[Metaphor]

Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.

I would agree if they were, say, taking out a business loan to start a risky venture. But education is considered an inherent right by the entire civilized world; it should never have been the target of predatory loan tactics and academic price gouging in the first place. I'm not going to hold someone accountable for a bill that by right they should never have been charged.

Particularly loans that were taken out by 18 year olds who are only considered to be legal adults in the US because it means we can draft them

Only the men.

and hand down adult length sentences, in return for which, they can vote and take in ruinous student debt that they have neither the maturity nor the experience, to fully understand. This, btw, is recognized by other lenders who won’t write say, a mortgage loan for an 18 year old.

So, you think no 18 year old should be allowed to be offered credit?

What age do you propose that people should be allowed to receive credit?

For those who are all up in arms about kids getting ‘useless ‘ degrees: I agree. Let’s go after the for profit schools who lure vulnerable people in with promises of a quick and easy and affordable degree that is the key to financial security but in reality is expensive and nearly useless.

The 'for profit' schools? What?

Surely all schools who offer useless degrees should have their ability to offer useless degrees curtailed?

 

[Worldtraveller]

Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.

I dislike free. Make it affordable.

I don't give a shit what you don't like.
Free is affordable

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.

The problem is that misery loves company.

There's exactly nothing irresponsible about being given assistance, even if others in similar situations in the past were forced to extricate themselves, or go under.

Comes to that, there's nothing particularly responsible about helping yourself, when you have no other good options.

You appear to be using "responsible" to mean "allowing others to feel good about being selfish cunts who won't lift a finger to help someone who is struggling".

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.

I dislike free. Make it affordable.

Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.

Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.

Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.

And, these bonds don't have interest rates and the principal does not need to be paid back?

Why tax people at all if we can just issue bonds?

I was just pointing out that there is in fact another way to forgive loans without having less money to spend on other things.

You don't need to believe it's the correct course of action.

Bonds = increase the federal debt = increase the interest paid on the federal debt = less money to spend on other things.

 

[bilby]

The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.

The problem is that misery loves company.

There's exactly nothing irresponsible about being given assistance, even if others in similar situations in the past were forced to extricate themselves, or go under.

Comes to that, there's nothing particularly responsible about helping yourself, when you have no other good options.

You appear to be using "responsible" to mean "allowing others to feel good about being selfish cunts who won't lift a finger to help someone who is struggling".

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.

Then they should stop trying to impose their lifestyle on others, and start living a little.

Needless sacrifice isn't noble, it's stupid. And complaining when others choose not to be stupid, because you suffered and therefore they should too, is being a selfish cunt.

Society is about people helping each other. If you opt out, that's your stupid choice - but not an excuse to insist that others should do the same.

 

[bilby]

Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.

I dislike free. Make it affordable.

Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.

Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.

Ah yes, the old days.

When everything was perfect and wonderful.

It's just a shame that they never existed.

 

[Toni]

Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.

I dislike free. Make it affordable.

Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.

Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.

Ah yes, the old days.

When everything was perfect and wonderful.

It's just a shame that they never existed.

Loren is right. For most middle class people, going to a public university was affordable on summer jobs and work study. I had two scholarships which I needed because my parents had very firm rules about no jobs during high school. I think I got maybe $300 total contribution from my parents. Zero student loans. My father refused to fill out student aid forms which required him disclosing his income. Family was middle class but just barely.

The people college was not affordable for were the people who needed to help support their family with the money they earned from summer/after school jobs.

The biggest reason that university was affordable for so many students was that states supported education much more substantially.

 

[bilby]

Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.

I dislike free. Make it affordable.

Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.

Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.

Ah yes, the old days.

When everything was perfect and wonderful.

It's just a shame that they never existed.

Loren is right. For most middle class people, going to a public university was affordable on summer jobs and work study. I had two scholarships which I needed because my parents ts had very firm feelings about no jobs during high school. I think I hit maybe $300 total contribution from my parents ts. Zero student loans. Family was middle class but just barely.

The people college was not affordable for were the people who needed to help support their family with the money they earned from summer/after school jobs.

The biggest reason that university was affordable for so many students was that states supported education much more substantially.

When I went to university, the entire cost of the tuition was paid by the local education authority, who also gave me a lump sum at the beginning of each term to cover my living expenses.

Had I had dependants to support, I could have worked a weekend or after school job to do that, but I didn't, so I didn't.

That was the standard way in which higher education worked in the UK up until the end of the 1980s; The student's 'home' LEA (that is, the LEA in which they completed their secondary schooling, usually the same Local Authority to which their families paid rates*) paid an 'award' as a matter of entitlement, that consisted of tuition fees plus a 'grant' to cover basic living expenses.



*'Rates' were the local property tax charged to landowners at the local government level in the UK. Families living in rented accommodation didn't pay rates directly, (but their landlords would of course include the cost in their rents).

 

[Worldtraveller]

What's the 'abuse' of free school? People go, can't cut it, and flunk out?

I'm going to put this simply so even Loren can understand it:

Who
theFuck
Cares?

It's like welfare. Ok, so 3% of people who get it probably are getting to much, gaming, the system, or otherwise taking advantage.

Who
theFuck
Cares?

It's worth it for the 97% that it helps.

Tell you what, Loren, let's go through every single state, local, and federal program that you use. If it ain't 100% perfect, you don't get to use it.

So that means, you can't drive on the roads, you don't get to use public health services. And maybe, you can stop posting on the internet.

Damn, I'm starting to like this system.

 

[Toni]

What's the 'abuse' of free school? People go, can't cut it, and flunk out?

I'm going to put this simply so even Loren can understand it:

Who
theFuck
Cares?

It's like welfare. Ok, so 3% of people who get it probably are getting to much, gaming, the system, or otherwise taking advantage.

Who
theFuck
Cares?

It's worth it for the 97% that it helps.

Tell you what, Loren, let's go through every single state, local, and federal program that you use. If it ain't 100% perfect, you don't get to use it.

So that means, you can't drive on the roads, you don't get to use public health services. And maybe, you can stop posting on the internet.

Damn, I'm starting to like this system.

The solution to the 3% or more whose parents could afford to send them to school is simply to tax the highest income people at a higher rate to pay for their kid and the kids whose parents cannot afford to send them.

Education is like public roads: everyone benefits. I would go several steps further and say that an excellent publicly funded education open to all who can qualify is not only an important part of the US economy and democracy, but also is essential to the support and maintenance, and even the defense of our country.

 

[Toni]

Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.

I dislike free. Make it affordable.

Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.

Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.

Ah yes, the old days.

When everything was perfect and wonderful.

It's just a shame that they never existed.

Loren is right. For most middle class people, going to a public university was affordable on summer jobs and work study. I had two scholarships which I needed because my parents ts had very firm feelings about no jobs during high school. I think I hit maybe $300 total contribution from my parents ts. Zero student loans. Family was middle class but just barely.

The people college was not affordable for were the people who needed to help support their family with the money they earned from summer/after school jobs.

The biggest reason that university was affordable for so many students was that states supported education much more substantially.

When I went to university, the entire cost of the tuition was paid by the local education authority, who also gave me a lump sum at the beginning of each term to cover my living expenses.

Had I had dependants to support, I could have worked a weekend or after school job to do that, but I didn't, so I didn't.

That was the standard way in which higher education worked in the UK up until the end of the 1980s; The student's 'home' LEA (that is, the LEA in which they completed their secondary schooling, usually the same Local Authority to which their families paid rates*) paid an 'award' as a matter of entitlement, that consisted of tuition fees plus a 'grant' to cover basic living expenses.



*'Rates' were the local property tax charged to landowners at the local government level in the UK. Families living in rented accommodation didn't pay rates directly, (but their landlords would of course include the cost in their rents).

And that's the way it should be.

My only fears regarding 100% funding of universities in the US are that the legislators will then feel that they can dictate curriculum and standards, etc. I also worry that it will give elite private schools or private schools in general an additional eclat. There is already far too much snobbishness with regards to public vs private education at every level in the US.

 

[Playball40]

The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.

Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.

The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.

So people paying student loans today are "irresponsible" but when you did it, it was a good investment? What a crock.

 

[Trausti]

The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.

Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.

The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.

So people paying student loans today are "irresponsible" but when you did it, it was a good investment? What a crock.

Wut? Isn’t it about folks who were responsible and paid back their loans resenting that their taxes will be used to write off the loans of others? Is the government going to refund our payments with interest? Or are we just suckers for being responsible?