How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."

So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population

After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."

So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population

After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.

Jason: if you don't like people "strawmanning" you, then stop being so vague and state your position. Vague statements like "neither side is a good guy". What does that even mean? One side is attacking another. One side is imperialistic and wants to conquer land. One side deliberately targets civilians. One side has actively kidnapped thousands of children and forced them to Mother Russia. One side shells the area where the UN secretary is visiting on a peace mission. One side launched a missile within 15 miles of my 10-year-old niece. Should I tell her that the side that is trying to stop the imperialists and save her home are just as bad as the guys that launched that missile?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."

So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population

After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.

Jason: if you don't like people "strawmanning" you, then stop being so vague and state your position.

Libertarian Exclusion Principle states you can't both know if someone is a Libertarian and their position on something, at the same time.

 

[steve_bank]

Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."

So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population

After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.

Her'ds a wild idea, clearly state what you think the response should be to Russian aggression. No armchair moralizing, what should be done

 

[Copernicus]

Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."

So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population

After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.

Her'ds a wild idea, clearly state what you think the response should be to Russian aggression. No armchair moralizing, what should be done

My impression is that he is advocating Libertarianism is about maximizing concern for oneself, not others. He keeps asking for people to come up with a reason why it is in our self-interest to be involved with Ukraine.

 

[steve_bank]

I know. Libertarians, the extreme right, and the extreme left all live in a fantasy reality that does not and can nor exist given us humans as we are.


The extreme libertarians think they are are a kingdom to themselves in their home owing nothing to anyone. Some reject paying taxes for emergency services. The John Wayne cowboy movie image.

Unless you are living alone in the wilderness without anything from civilization you are always dependent on the larger group.

 

[Elixir]

I know. Libertarians, the extreme right, and the extreme left all live in a fantasy reality that does not and can nor exist given us humans as we are.


The extreme libertarians think they are are a kingdom to themselves in their home owing nothing to anyone. Some reject paying taxes for emergency services. The John Wayne cowboy movie image.

Unless you are living alone in the wilderness without anything from civilization you are always dependent on the larger group.

Collectively, libertarians are a parasitic subset of society. In some ways they serve as a counterbalance to the hyper-organization that pervades modern existence. But even that meager redemption doesn’t apply to the libberpublican faction, who would preserve their Marlboro Man image for themselves while imposing law’n order on everyone else.

 

[steve_bank]

I agree on the parasitic idea. Libertarians get to be libertarians as long as there is a civil interdependent society to live in.

I'f like to put a few thousand armed libertarians on a remot island and e see how long it takes for them to start shooting at each other over resources and property rights.

 

[Elixir]

I agree on the parasitic idea. Libertarians get to be libertarians as long as there is a civil interdependent society to live in.

I'f like to put a few thousand armed libertarians on a remot island and e see how long it takes for them to start shooting at each other over resources and property rights.

So many of us have had that thought, it’s making me think the ad revenues could be massive. The tv show Survivor has been successful for over twenty years. The armed version would have a much shorter run, but the thirty second rates might rival or even exceed Superbowl levels!

 

[steve_bank]

I agree on the parasitic idea. Libertarians get to be libertarians as long as there is a civil interdependent society to live in.

I'f like to put a few thousand armed libertarians on a remot island and e see how long it takes for them to start shooting at each other over resources and property rights.

So many of us have had that thought, it’s making me think the ad revenues could be massive. The tv show Survivor has been successful for over twenty years. The armed version would have a much shorter run, but the thirty second rates might rival or even exceed Superbowl levels!

Indeed.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."

So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population

After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.

Jason: if you don't like people "strawmanning" you, then stop being so vague and state your position. Vague statements like "neither side is a good guy". What does that even mean? One side is attacking another. One side is imperialistic and wants to conquer land. One side deliberately targets civilians. One side has actively kidnapped thousands of children and forced them to Mother Russia. One side shells the area where the UN secretary is visiting on a peace mission. One side launched a missile within 15 miles of my 10-year-old niece. Should I tell her that the side that is trying to stop the imperialists and save her home are just as bad as the guys that launched that missile?

Every time I say "don't get involved" people say I support Putin or Russia. That is a straw man. I have been very clear about my non-interventionist position, but people who either can't or won't read insist that it means I support the opposite side from their side.

It isn't a straw man to say I don't support Russia even though I say we shouldn't get involved. It is a straw man to say I do support them because I say we shouldn't get involved.

Also, as for "sometimes there are no good guys", I know that noticing that Ukraine has its own problems means I somehow support the other side. It doesn't mean I think Ukraine attacked Russia. If you want to know what problems Ukraine has, don't make up stories about Ukraine attacking Russia, look for actual facts for a change. It will do you good.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."

So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population

After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.

Jason: if you don't like people "strawmanning" you, then stop being so vague and state your position.

Libertarian Exclusion Principle states you can't both know if someone is a Libertarian and their position on something, at the same time.

Libertarian Exclusion Principle states that if you think a libertarian is wrong then his position is whatever you say it is and his actual position is excluded.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I know. Libertarians, the extreme right, and the extreme left all live in a fantasy reality that does not and can nor exist given us humans as we are.


The extreme libertarians think they are are a kingdom to themselves in their home owing nothing to anyone. Some reject paying taxes for emergency services. The John Wayne cowboy movie image.

Unless you are living alone in the wilderness without anything from civilization you are always dependent on the larger group.

Collectively, libertarians are a parasitic subset of society. In some ways they serve as a counterbalance to the hyper-organization that pervades modern existence. But even that meager redemption doesn’t apply to the libberpublican faction, who would preserve their Marlboro Man image for themselves while imposing law’n order on everyone else.

Those who say "we shouldn't steal from others, even if we call ourselves government" are surely the parasites, and Socialist tankies who believe in forcible redistribution at the point of a gun (skimming a little of the top because they never create anything themselves) are not parasites ... in fantasy land.

If you start with "people have fundamental individual rights that should not be violated" and "initiation of the use of force is bad" odds are the people on that island will not initiate force to violate rights. Now an island of socialists would be quite interesting, as they are all willing to share but none of them produce anything. They're all willing to share what everyone else has.

Can you define the nonsense word you used in your post? Didn't think so. The Libertarian Exclusion Principle also says that all requests for clarification made by a libertarian are excluded from the discussion.

 

[bilby]

If you start with "people have fundamental individual rights that should not be violated" and "initiation of the use of force is bad"

...then it follows that Ukrainian defence of their rights against the Russians, who initiated the use of force against them, is a good thing that should not be allowed to be extinguished simply because the Russians have the strength of numbers and strength of arms to do so.

Which leads us inexorably to "someone should help Ukraine to defend itself against Russia", and thence "we should help Ukraine to defend itself against Russia", via the principle of 'if not me, then who?'.

So, do you think that the NATO nations, who have the capability to help Ukraine defend its rights against the Russian aggression, should intervene? If not, then what part of my reasoning from your premises do you take issue with?

If you come across a big bully robbing some weedy kid, and you have the means and the skills to defend the victim, you have a duty to do so. Seeing that scene and saying "It's not my place to get involved, but I am appalled at the robber's initiation of the use of force and shall tut very loudly as I walk away" would make you an arsehole, not a libertarian.

 

[ZiprHead]

Every time I say "don't get involved" people say I support Putin or Russia. That is a straw man. I have been very clear about my non-interventionist position, but people who either can't or won't read insist that it means I support the opposite side from their side.

Reminds me of a certain quote by Rev. Niemöller.

 

[Jarhyn]

If you start with "people have fundamental individual rights that should not be violated" and "initiation of the use of force is bad"

...then it follows that Ukrainian defence of their rights against the Russians, who initiated the use of force against them, is a good thing that should not be allowed to be extinguished simply because the Russians have the strength of numbers and strength of arms to do so.

Which leads us inexorably to "someone should help Ukraine to defend itself against Russia", and thence "we should help Ukraine to defend itself against Russia", via the principle of 'if not me, then who?'.

So, do you think that the NATO nations, who have the capability to help Ukraine defend its rights against the Russian aggression, should intervene? If not, then what part of my reasoning from your premises do you take issue with?

If you come across a big bully robbing some weedy kid, and you have the means and the skills to defend the victim, you have a duty to do so. Seeing that scene and saying "It's not my place to get involved, but I am appalled at the robber's initiation of the use of force and shall tut very loudly as I walk away" would make you an arsehole, not a libertarian.

I am fairly well convinced this reasoning will be the death of me some day, and I do my best to not be a big bully or a weedy kid.

 

[ZiprHead]

Russian TV says Mariupol almost 'normal,' schools to use Russian textbooks

"Textbooks are being delivered to the schools. Importantly, they are Russian...they do not contain lies or falsifications of history," First Channel reported.

www.newsweek.com

The southern port city of Mariupol has been the site of some of the fiercest fighting seen thus far in the Russia-Ukraine conflict. On March 16, Mariupol's deputy mayor, Serhiy Orlov, estimated that between 80%-90% of the city's buildings had been damaged. In the six weeks of continued fighting that followed, the situation has only gotten worse.

Russian domestic television, however, presented its audience with an alternative version of events. A four-minute news segment broadcast on Russia's First Channel on the evening of April 28 made the following claim:

"After explosions, firefights, pain, and blood, Mariupol is returning to normal life, and as a notable symbol of this, schools are already accumulating lists of students.

"The kids just can't wait to get back to work. They missed their classmates and their teachers so much that they are ready to study even in the summer.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Non-interventionism and neutrality is a myth in cases like Ukraine. A person feels good to say it is all. But it doesn't wash. It's like witnessing a murder and not wanting to get involved.

 

[steve_bank]

Non-interventionism and neutrality is a myth in cases like Ukraine. A person feels good to say it is all. But it doesn't wash. It's like witnessing a murder and not wanting to get involved.

Nicely put.

 

[steve_bank]

I know. Libertarians, the extreme right, and the extreme left all live in a fantasy reality that does not and can nor exist given us humans as we are.


The extreme libertarians think they are are a kingdom to themselves in their home owing nothing to anyone. Some reject paying taxes for emergency services. The John Wayne cowboy movie image.

Unless you are living alone in the wilderness without anything from civilization you are always dependent on the larger group.

Collectively, libertarians are a parasitic subset of society. In some ways they serve as a counterbalance to the hyper-organization that pervades modern existence. But even that meager redemption doesn’t apply to the libberpublican faction, who would preserve their Marlboro Man image for themselves while imposing law’n order on everyone else.

Those who say "we shouldn't steal from others, even if we call ourselves government" are surely the parasites, and Socialist tankies who believe in forcible redistribution at the point of a gun (skimming a little of the top because they never create anything themselves) are not parasites ... in fantasy land.

If you start with "people have fundamental individual rights that should not be violated" and "initiation of the use of force is bad" odds are the people on that island will not initiate force to violate rights. Now an island of socialists would be quite interesting, as they are all willing to share but none of them produce anything. They're all willing to share what everyone else has.

Can you define the nonsense word you used in your post? Didn't think so. The Libertarian Exclusion Principle also says that all requests for clarification made by a libertarian are excluded from the discussion.

In the early 70s I considered pacifism. I decided it was fine as moral statement. but if you truly practice it then you are morally obligated to be willing to die or get injured or robbed without calling emergency services who may end up risking their lives to protect you.

I had a pacifist teacher for an ethics class. He was Canadian. He said he came home with his wife and kid finding theifs walking out the front door of his house. If they were carrying his kids does he resort to violence? Or maybe call the police who may get killed rescuing his kids.

Libertarian is a myth that makes you feel good and different, even superior. It does not exist and never has.

The saying 'practce what you preach' ' applies.

You still have not articulated what we should do over Ukraine. The Budapest Memorandum signed by Russia, USA, and UK guarantees Urkainian sovereignty.

Shoud we not engage in international security agreements? Before Pearl Harbor Joe Kemedy, JFKs father, as ambssador to England suggeted we let the Eyropeans fight it out and deal with the winner, which liley woud hve been Hitler.

Woud isolationism have been a good idea for the USA in the long run?