No thread on Patrick Lyoya?

[Loren Pechtel]

The list of his previous crimes needs some clarification. The "unlawful use of a motor vehicle" is really stealing cars. I wonder if the car he drove that fateful day was stolen or why else there would be fake plates on it. So far, the police won't confirm this one way of the other:

What??? No. That is not equal to stealing cars.

People around here do that all the time. They have three cars and one license plate. Or they keep old plates from previous cars so that they have a plate while driving around, but that plate was long ago made inactive, but they don’t have money to register or insure the current one. It’s not legal, but they do own all the cars, and none of them are stolen. This one might be stolen, but the mis-matched plate is not what proves it.

And let's NOT FORGET, the police would have had to have RUN THE PLATE to know it was a mis-match. They didn't PULL HIM OVER for that - they saw a black guy in a car and just decided he looked suspicious.

Some places have cops that are sitting there run plates they see.

There are also automatic plate readers but whether they can figure out the plate doesn't match the car I don't know.

 

[Toni]

Shyster is too good a word for them.

You've been told before but for some reason...

Every word that we speak carries its own history. A tale of travel, a silly story or heavy hatred in its every syllable. Ethnophaulisms, or ethnic slurs, have their own etymology, which is important to understand to see why these words should not continue in modern vocabulary. The JT collected this short, incomplete list of words used against Jewish people to explore where they came from.

...

Shyster: Readers, please be warned and take care that this one is particularly offensive. This word was defined as “unscrupulous lawyer” in 1843’s U.S. slang according to the Online Etymology Dictionary, probably altered from German Scheisser “incompetent worthless person,” from Scheisse “shit” from Old High German skizzan “to defecate.”

Also: Shylock, from Merchant of Venice by Shakespeare.

 

[Derec]

Also: Shylock, from Merchant of Venice by Shakespeare.

I do not think these two are etymologically related. Besides, Shylock wasn't even a lawyer.

 

[Derec]

And let's NOT FORGET, the police would have had to have RUN THE PLATE to know it was a mis-match. They didn't PULL HIM OVER for that - they saw a black guy in a car and just decided he looked suspicious.

Police can run somebody's plates BEFORE they pull them over. The car Schurr was driving in particular was equipped with an automatic license plate reader.

You have zero evidence that Lyoya was pulled over for "driving while black". Do you think he just happened to pull over a guy with mismatched plates, revoked driver's license and two arrest warrants by accident?

 

[Toni]

Also: Shylock, from Merchant of Venice by Shakespeare.

I do not think these two are etymologically related. Besides, Shylock wasn't even a lawyer.

I do not think that those who use ethnic slurs are terribly particular at the precise derivation of the slurs they use. Or know the difference.

 

[Derec]

I do not think that those who use ethnic slurs are terribly particular at the precise derivation of the slurs they use. Or know the difference.

Just because a word is of non-English origin does not make it an ethnic slur. "Shyster" is a slur, if you want to call it that, against unethical lawyers. It has no ethnic component.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, this whole thread is a dumpster fire...

Imagine you have a gun for a moment and someone who is a bit of an idiot, and really afraid of your gun, and you need that person to do something they don't want to do.

There are only a few things you can do.

You can speak to them.

You can discharge the weapon (at them or in a "safe" direction).

Of speaking to them, you can do it at various volumes and bearings.

Yelling will only make them more hopped up on adrenaline.

So will firing the weapon.

It stands to reason then that talking to them at a reasonable volume in a low calm voice and helping direct them to what they need to do to get the gun no longer pointed at them might be the most reasonable choice here.

The less control that a person exhibits over their voice, the more someone's voice shifts as they shout, the less enunciated their commands, the more panicked the person listening will be, the more apparent it is that the person with the gun is "froggy" and may shoot no matter what is done. Why is it being "froggy"? IDFK, ask my Drill Sgt.

"Getting froggy" breeds hesitation, and jumpiness in the person being commanded.

The officer here "got froggy", and then someone died.

 

[Toni]

I do not think that those who use ethnic slurs are terribly particular at the precise derivation of the slurs they use. Or know the difference.

Just because a word is of non-English origin does not make it an ethnic slur. "Shyster" is a slur, if you want to call it that, against unethical lawyers. It has no ethnic component.

It did where I come from. I learned my slurs from those who were not terribly familiar with Shakespeare or particular about the difference between lawyers and loan sharks.

 

[Derec]

It did where I come from.

Is that the same one horse town you usually like to regale us about?

But enough about policing language. Let's get back to policing the streets. What do you think about the Patrick Lyoya case?

 

[Derec]

The officer here "got froggy", and then someone died.

I think it was Lyoya who got "froggy" when he decided to run and fight.

 

[Toni]

It did where I come from.

Is that the same one horse town you usually like to regale us about?

But enough about policing language. Let's get back to policing the streets. What do you think about the Patrick Lyoya case?

It was indeed a small town in a fairly rural county in a midwestern state. No horses, tho.

I think it is extremely difficult to justify shooting someone in the back of the head when you are on top of him, and he's face down on the ground. The fact that the officer told him to not touch his taser (or whatever) is not really proof that Loyoya was actually going for the taser because unfortunately sometimes cops lie. Unfortunately, Grand Rapids MI has a well documented serious problem with racism and racism on the part of police.

I confess I have not read more about the shooting over the last week or so.

 

[Gospel]

If we can just stop the black community from supporting these people

If we could stop white people … problem solved.

I'm very serious about the hood culture and the people they admire (or strive to be tougher or crazier than). It's a real thing. This doesn't mean that outside influences are nonexistent for example; most thug life music artists get the majority of their money from the white population. But it is a very serious problem in our neighborhoods and seeing success stories of how the life of crime was used to get out of the hood you'd think people would actually give it a go.

'It's not my fault you paid $250,000 and I paid a buck'

Three years ago, Lamar Grace left Detroit for the suburb of Southfield. He got a good deal — a 3,000-square-foot colonial that once was worth $220,000. In foreclosure, he paid $109,000.

www.nbcnews.com

Three years ago, Lamar Grace left Detroit for the suburb of Southfield. He got a good deal — a 3,000-square-foot colonial that once was worth $220,000. In foreclosure, he paid $109,000.

The neighbors were not pleased.


"They don't want to live next door to ghetto folks," he says.

That his neighbors are black, like Grace, is immaterial. Many in the black middle class moved out of Detroit and settled in the northern suburbs years ago; now, due to foreclosures, it is easy to buy or rent houses on the cheap here. The result has been a new, poorer wave of arrivals from the city, and growing tensions between established residents and the newcomers.

Yeah, it also doesn't help when some do manage to get out of the hood they bring the hood with them & in some cases, not by any fault of their own. For example, property values going down because too many black people move in & not because said, black people have done anything tangible to bring the value down other than being black.

 

[Gun Nut]

A bit surprising there hasn't been a thread about Patrick Lyoya yet. He is the latest #BLM hashtag.

I guess your narrative about "the left" defending any black person for any reason is false, then.
unless YOU want to bring it up (which you did) and talk about it (which you are)... That's fine. But I guess you need a new theory.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It did where I come from.

Is that the same one horse town you usually like to regale us about?

But enough about policing language. Let's get back to policing the streets. What do you think about the Patrick Lyoya case?

It was indeed a small town in a fairly rural county in a midwestern state. No horses, tho.

I think it is extremely difficult to justify shooting someone in the back of the head when you are on top of him, and he's face down on the ground. The fact that the officer told him to not touch his taser (or whatever) is not really proof that Loyoya was actually going for the taser because unfortunately sometimes cops lie. Unfortunately, Grand Rapids MI has a well documented serious problem with racism and racism on the part of police.

I confess I have not read more about the shooting over the last week or so.

Bad guy takes a weapon from a cop is always justification to shoot regardless of position. And we clearly see a fight for control of the taser.

 

[bilby]

It did where I come from.

Is that the same one horse town you usually like to regale us about?

But enough about policing language. Let's get back to policing the streets. What do you think about the Patrick Lyoya case?

It was indeed a small town in a fairly rural county in a midwestern state. No horses, tho.

I think it is extremely difficult to justify shooting someone in the back of the head when you are on top of him, and he's face down on the ground. The fact that the officer told him to not touch his taser (or whatever) is not really proof that Loyoya was actually going for the taser because unfortunately sometimes cops lie. Unfortunately, Grand Rapids MI has a well documented serious problem with racism and racism on the part of police.

I confess I have not read more about the shooting over the last week or so.

Bad guy takes a weapon from a cop is always justification to shoot regardless of position. And we clearly see a fight for control of the taser.

Literally every word of that is wrong, including "a" and "the".

There's no such thing as a "bad guy" outside poorly written fiction. A suspect is, in law, innocent until proven guilty in court; Killing innocent people is not something we should allow the authorities to do.

Cops shouldn't be allowed weapons of any kind unless they can maintain control of them.

No cop is ever justified in shooting anyone, unless that person has already used deadly force. Cops have a duty to protect life, and to risk their own lives in so doing. Cowards who are not prepared to risk their lives in order to ascertain with certainty that the person they killed was a lethal threat have no business wearing the uniform.

Being scared doesn't justify murder, no matter what badges you may have been officially issued.

Self defence requires that you are actually under attack. Not just worried that you might be soon.

 

[Derec]

There's no such thing as a "bad guy" outside poorly written fiction.

Of course there are bad guys.

A suspect is, in law, innocent until proven guilty in court; Killing innocent people is not something we should allow the authorities to do.

The first sentence is only relevant for the courts. It's not relevant as to how to respond to a suspect who is a threat to an officer or others.
The second sentence, if you were to apply it, would mean that police could never use deadly force. That is obviously nonsense.

Cops shouldn't be allowed weapons of any kind unless they can maintain control of them.

Another nonsensical sentence. There is no way to guarantee that a perp who attacks a cop will not be able to overpower him or her and take their weapon. That has happened surprisingly frequently when police officers hesitate too long to shoot a bad guy. And yes, I used the term "bad guy" here.
Suspect kills deputy Neil Adams with his own gun in Houston mall

This just happened in my neck of the woods. I know this restaurant.

GBI identifies man shot, killed by off-duty Atlanta police officer at Buckhead restaurant
Luckily this case had a happy ending, unlike many instances of perps taking officers' guns.

No cop is ever justified in shooting anyone, unless that person has already used deadly force.

That is overly restrictive it definitely is not what US laws says. I suspect it is not what Australian law says either.
It's an idiosyncratic bilibian view of what "justified" means.

Cops have a duty to protect life, and to risk their own lives in so doing.

They do risk their own lives. They are not required to put their lives at an unduly high risk. There is a difference.

Cowards who are not prepared to risk their lives in order to ascertain with certainty that the person they killed was a lethal threat have no business wearing the uniform.

In an unfolding situation there is simply no time to ascertain anything with certainty. You have to assess the threat in real time.

Being scared doesn't justify murder, no matter what badges you may have been officially issued.

Being in a reasonable fear for one's life or of bodily harm as well as that of third parties does justify using deadly force, and is in no way "murder".

Self defence requires that you are actually under attack. Not just worried that you might be soon.

Schurr was under attack by your boy Lyoya.

 

[Derec]

I guess your narrative about "the left" defending any black person for any reason is false, then.

Except that several leftist posters on here have not disappointed and have defended Lyoya while attacking Schurr. Playball does not even think he should have been pulled over!
And it's not just this forum. It's also lefty media like NPR who write one-sided hagiographies like this one. He a good boy. Church every week. No mention of his revoked license, two warrants or all the criminal convictions, including for DUI and domestic violence.
So the left is doing what the left does. No surprises.

unless YOU want to bring it up (which you did) and talk about it (which you are)... That's fine. But I guess you need a new theory.

Just because I started the thread does not mean the left will not defend bad guys like St. Patrick of Lyoya simply because of the color of his skin.

 

[Derec]

I think it is extremely difficult to justify shooting someone in the back of the head when you are on top of him, and he's face down on the ground.

He was still fighting with the officer. This went off for minutes. I think the officer became fearful that the longer the fight went on, the more likely it is that Lyoya would be able to overcome him and arm himself. First with the taser, but then with a gun. Lyoya has already shown willingness to use violence to get out of being arrested.
That's why I think two man patrols could have prevented this. If Schurr had backup, he would not need to be as concerned about losing the physical fight as his fellow officer would be there to assist.

The fact that the officer told him to not touch his taser (or whatever) is not really proof that Loyoya was actually going for the taser because unfortunately sometimes cops lie.

He is on the video going for the taser though. Again I ask you, did you even watch the video?
Some stills:

Unfortunately, Grand Rapids MI has a well documented serious problem with racism and racism on the part of police.

Do they? Or is it the usual "disparate impact" nonsense?

I confess I have not read more about the shooting over the last week or so.

Maybe you should inform yourself better.

 

[laughing dog]

I guess your narrative about "the left" defending any black person for any reason is false, then.

Except that several leftist posters on here have not disappointed and have defended Lyoya while attacking Schurr. Playball does not even think he should have been pulled over!
And it's not just this forum. It's also lefty media like NPR who write one-sided hagiographies like this one. He a good boy. Church every week. No mention of his revoked license, two warrants or all the criminal convictions, including for DUI and domestic violence.
So the left is doing what the left does. No surprises.

Just like there were no surprises in the OP.

unless YOU want to bring it up (which you did) and talk about it (which you are)... That's fine. But I guess you need a new theory.

Just because I started the thread does not mean the left will not defend bad guys like St. Patrick of Lyoya simply because of the color of his skin.

True. Just like there are people who think they have to attack guys like this victim because of the color of their skin.

 

[Toni]

I think it is extremely difficult to justify shooting someone in the back of the head when you are on top of him, and he's face down on the ground.

He was still fighting with the officer. This went off for minutes. I think the officer became fearful that the longer the fight went on, the more likely it is that Lyoya would be able to overcome him and arm himself. First with the taser, but then with a gun. Lyoya has already shown willingness to use violence to get out of being arrested.
That's why I think two man patrols could have prevented this. If Schurr had backup, he would not need to be as concerned about losing the physical fight as his fellow officer would be there to assist.

The fact that the officer told him to not touch his taser (or whatever) is not really proof that Loyoya was actually going for the taser because unfortunately sometimes cops lie.

He is on the video going for the taser though. Again I ask you, did you even watch the video?
Some stills:

Unfortunately, Grand Rapids MI has a well documented serious problem with racism and racism on the part of police.

Do they? Or is it the usual "disparate impact" nonsense?

I confess I have not read more about the shooting over the last week or so.

Maybe you should inform yourself better.

Believe it or not, Derec, I have an extremely full life outside this forum and it gives me no pleasure to watch multiple videos of people being murdered. Call me crazy but it just not seem to give me the same kind of thrill it gives you. Im not watching another video of another police officer killing another person. The video I saw earlier looked to me as though he was grabbing fir a weapon he feared being used on him. You know: defending himself. I realize that for many people, ordinary citizens do not have a right to defend themselves from attacks by police even if the police mistakenly break into their home in the middle of the night and are assumed to be home invaders—which they actually are.


As for informing myself, maybe you should inform yourself about the well documented history of racism in Grand Rapids MI. Y’all southern white boys don’t got no monopoly on racism.