Magic

[Jarhyn]

In the interest of not trying to bogart the topic, I'm just going to put this here and not say much about it quite yet.

Obviously, magic is a topic of some religious discussion.

You hear all kinds of discussions like "magic doesn't exist" and "prayer is just Christian magic" and "look at those Mormons with their crazy magic underwear!"

There are other things meant by it too, to be sure.

But this is a thread to discuss the topic, if it actually interests anyone.

You might even get to see me being crazy and make an ass of myself. Oh what fun that would be!

So let's all us materialists, atheists, and skeptics discuss "magic".

 

[steve_bank]

Catholicism by any other name is magic.

Spells and inctaions. A priest-magician converts bread and wine into body and blood of a dead person.

 

[Elixir]

When haunting xtian forums one of my favorite questions to ask was “is the Bible a magic book?”
Most common answer “it’s the Word of God”,
Pressing about whether that made it magic seemed to only elicit anger, condemnation and threats of eternal damnation.

 

[bilby]

Any sufficiently advanced religion is indistinguishable from magic.

 

[Hermit]

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Christians:
"The age of miracle is over."

Christians explaining why the claims of great miracle working power promised by Jesus do not work.

 

[Politesse]

I teach a class on it.

 

[steve_bank]

I teach a class on it.

You teach magic?

 

[Politesse]

I teach a class on it.

You teach magic?

No, I teaach a course on magic and religion cross-culturally. Quite popular.

 

[steve_bank]

I

I teach a class on it.

You teach magic?

No, I teaach a course on magic and religion cross-culturally. Quite popular.

Ok, I was starting to think you were a kind of shaman or necromancer. Guess I was wrong.

Astrology is being reported as popular among younger generations. In Ca there are business astrologer consultants.

That all cultures have traditions of the sup[supernatural aka magic tells us what?

Carlos Cstenada wrote his first book on alleged experince living with a Mexican native brujo. In the end as I remember he relaizes his mystical experiences were the result of being fed hallucinogenics. The books were popular among the drug culture.

On a Native American show it was said there is a school on a reservation where one can get a degree in shamanism. I thought an agriculture school might be more useful. People cling to beliefs even when it is not in their best interests.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, now that folks have had some chance to 'get it out of their system" with cheap and vapid one-offs only vaguely related to not even addressing the OP, I would like to present the idea that not every thing called "magic", especially by those who take the concepts of it seriously, necessarily boil down to delusions.

I'll point out before I get started, that I am a materialist: unless some thing is empirically demonstrated as possible under the general laws of physics, I am going to go with explanations, instead, that fall within the general laws of physics.

Let's assume "Bob".

Bob is a person who believes in "magic" and "spirits".

Bob believes that when he draws a circle on the floor of his bathroom with a sigil, and studies that sigil until it vibrates in their vision and then says "brush my teeth" three times, whenever they enter the room they will feel a pull, an urge, to brush their teeth.

Is Bob wrong in the belief that if he does this thing, he will get the effect he seeks?

 

[steve_bank]

I'll point out before I get started, that I am a materialist: unless some thing is empirically demonstrated as possible under the general laws of physics, I am going to go with explanations, instead, that fall within the general laws of physics.

But, your posts across the forum tend to be nonsensical unconnected scientific expressions.

What you are describing is what I think is related to sympathetic magic. Ritual indices a conditioned behavior. Voodoo. The power of suggestion.

Sympathetic magic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

First you say you are an empirical materialist. Then you ask if Bob is correct in beliving magic symbols and incantaions actualy work. Very strange.

As materialist grounded n physics, why ask if Bob is wrong? An empirical scientist view would say let's see the evidence. Let's have an objective demonstration.

Also yiur description of a magic ritual is somewhat vague. Is Bob's s[ell supposed to work on anyone who walks in the bathroom, or is it done the pretense of people who then like zombies brush thier teeth.

From what I understand spells are fairly specific. There may have to be two different rituals or spells for the two interpretations of your example.

We coud run an experiment. I could craft a doll with your name on it in cat's blood. Then over a 24 hour period at random times I will stick a needle into te butt of the opll. Then yiu can report if you felt anything. Of corse I woud aply stick the needle into the soft fleshy Ipart. Of course I would not want to actually hurt you.

 

[Jarhyn]

...

No, pay very close attention to what I asked.

I asked:

Is Bob wrong in the belief that if he does this thing, he will get the effect he seeks?

I did not discuss whether it had anything to do with sigils materially, or whether some fantastic thing was happening. I did not propose some non-real effect of material. I did not propose any thing.

All I said was what he did materially, and ask whether the effect would follow from that given cause.

Bob believes if he does some thing, there will be an effect.

I did not ask yet about the mechanism, I asked about the effect.

Part of this thread is to discuss the nature of the mechanism, but first it must be ascertained what the effect is, whether you expect there to be one.

 

[Swammerdami]

The topic seems open-ended. I think the term "magic" can be applied to phenomenon which are not supernatural or impossible.

Carlos Cstenada wrote his first book on alleged experince living with a Mexican native brujo. In the end as I remember he relaizes his mystical experiences were the result of being fed hallucinogenics. The books were popular among the drug culture.

Is this true? I thought Castaneda (or rather the fictional version of himself depicted in The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge) was well aware that he was ingesting hallucinogens. Does this knowledge mean he didn't think he was experiencing "magic"?

 

[abaddon]

Is Bob wrong in the belief that if he does this thing, he will get the effect he seeks?

"Wrong" is a little vague. Bob's inaccurate and that's what many folk will zero in on. So in that sense he's wrong even if he "feels pulled" to brush his teeth. If Bob achieves that result by the power of suggestion, or he wants to avoid disappointing himself after all the energy he put into that ritual, then he's neither wrong nor right to say "it works".

----

My problem with religion isn't that it's wrong but that it 'metaphysicizes' the living heck out of psychological events. The result is you get other overly-literal minds reacting to that. They say "nuh uh! you're INACCURATE!" For them, that justifies a total dismissal. So there's "something there" to religion (and magic) but it's not for the reasons they believe.

To say the same basic thing from a different angle, my attraction to religion isn't that it's right... But that if you don't dismiss it entirely due to the inaccuracies, there's a gem or two under the pile of poop. If you look in a treasure chest and see a lot of cheap baubles, it's a mistake to say "like I thought! it's only baubles!"

 

[Jarhyn]

Is Bob wrong in the belief that if he does this thing, he will get the effect he seeks?

"Wrong" is a little vague. Bob's inaccurate and that's what many folk will zero in on. So in that sense he's wrong even if he "feels pulled" to brush his teeth. If Bob achieves that result by the power of suggestion, or he wants to avoid disappointing himself after all the energy he put into that ritual, then he's neither wrong nor right to say "it works".

----

My problem with religion isn't that it's wrong but that it 'metaphysicizes' the living heck out of psychological events. The result is you get other overly-literal minds reacting to that. They say "nuh uh! you're INACCURATE!" For them, that justifies a total dismissal. So there's "something there" to religion (and magic) but it's not for the reasons they believe.

To say the same basic thing from a different angle, my attraction to religion isn't that it's right... But that if you don't dismiss it entirely due to the inaccuracies, there's a gem or two under the pile of poop. If you look in a treasure chest and see a lot of cheap baubles, it's a mistake to say "like I thought! it's only baubles!"

Nothing has been described so as to be judged as inaccurate.

I merely stated that Bob believes that doing these things will create the effect bob wishes to see. I said nothing of how it happens, or what Bob thinks makes it work.

I have described nothing other than what Bob did, and what Bob expected as a result.

 

[abaddon]

The topic seems open-ended. I think the term "magic" can be applied to phenomenon which are not supernatural or impossible.

Carlos Cstenada wrote his first book on alleged experince living with a Mexican native brujo. In the end as I remember he relaizes his mystical experiences were the result of being fed hallucinogenics. The books were popular among the drug culture.

Is this true? I thought Castaneda (or rather the fictional version of himself depicted in The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge) was well aware that he was ingesting hallucinogens. Does this knowledge mean he didn't think he was experiencing "magic"?

As I remember, the reliance on hallucinogens became less as the book series progressed.
So he never came to think his mystical experiences were due only to hallucinogens since he went on having them after stopping using them. Rather, he said (or Don Juan said) that the hallucinogens were necessary in the early stages, to break down his ingrained story about the world.

 

[abaddon]

I merely stated that Bob believes that doing these things will create the effect bob wishes to see. I said nothing of how it happens, or what Bob thinks makes it work.

I have described nothing other than what Bob did, and what Bob expected as a result.

Ok, so Bob's wrong. He believes something he hasn't observed yet.

 

[Jarhyn]

I merely stated that Bob believes that doing these things will create the effect bob wishes to see. I said nothing of how it happens, or what Bob thinks makes it work.

I have described nothing other than what Bob did, and what Bob expected as a result.

Ok, so Bob's wrong. He believes something he hasn't observed yet.

I wouldn't agree with your interpretation of what wrongness implies.

Wrongness implies the thing he has not observed yet will not be observed in the frame of his belief in it's observation.

Let's assume a deterministic universe, even, because why the hell not.

Let us assume, even, that Bob has done a similar exercise at his front door, after consistently failing to remember his things, and now reliably remembers "keys cellphone, wallet, watch".

 

[Jarhyn]

@Swammerdami, you are correct at where this is going.

There are a great many people like Bob who fully understand that what they are doing is a material process based on material interactions with nothing "supernatural" involved.

Are Bob and his friends merely wrong to select the word "magic" to describe what they are doing?