Abortion

[fromderinside]

A crime, rape, results in the creation of a fetus. It is not the criminal that should be permitted to prevail.

Resolve that issue and I can agree that 'life' is the result of conception.

The sanctity of existing beings prior to the rape are to be preserved, not the possible existence of a being created over time by the nature of the victim.

Unless the fetus can become life without the assistance of the victim it cannot be declared life.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

s.

No, I don’t see a person. I see a clump of cells. A clump of cells is not a person!

But here you contradict yourself. Earlier you castigated me for characterizing a zygote, embryo or first-term fetus as a “potential person,” and here you are doing exactly the same thing! And in so doing, you are conceding the main point — that a clump of cells is not a person. If it were a person, you wouldn’t to wait for it to become a person, would you?

Can a racist can see a clump of cells that are non -insert least favoured colour here> and decide its not a person and thus kill it? Even if it is outside the womb?

Look, you can try and use all sorts of bad examples to try and negate a woman's own autonomy, but even when trying to use eugenics, it still doesn't change the fact that you are requiring a woman to have no control over her own body because of your own moral code.

Also I do not see a potential person in the womb. I see a person with unknown potential.

And I don't see a viable argument, just an attempt to make a clever turn of phrase. A woman being forced to endure pregnancy and birth and all the temporary and permanent consequences deserves a much better argument for why she must endure the likely anxiety and depression from being required to forfeit a portion of her life than a shitty turn of phrase.

 

[Elixir]

if you knew that and was just bouncing with a slightly divergent idea off what i said, i get that

 

[Elixir]

I do not see a potential person in the womb. I see a person with unknown potential.

You don’t see ANYTHING “in the womb” unless you’re doing a cesarean section or an autopsy.
That’s another thing that distinguishes a zygote from a person.

 

[Learner]

s.

No, I don’t see a person. I see a clump of cells. A clump of cells is not a person!

But here you contradict yourself. Earlier you castigated me for characterizing a zygote, embryo or first-term fetus as a “potential person,” and here you are doing exactly the same thing! And in so doing, you are conceding the main point — that a clump of cells is not a person. If it were a person, you wouldn’t to wait for it to become a person, would you?

Can a racist can see a clump of cells that are non -insert least favoured colour here> and decide its not a person and thus kill it? Even if it is outside the womb?

Also I do not see a potential person in the womb. I see a person with unknown potential.

Hey Tigers, you can see the results of the unknown potential. I saw one fellow, who I would assume is among many alive today, who said he was thankful he wasn't aborted - the mother changed her mind. Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

Celine Dion was also greatful she wasn't aborted I read somewhere. Some may have issues with that, not being fans of her music.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

s.

No, I don’t see a person. I see a clump of cells. A clump of cells is not a person!

But here you contradict yourself. Earlier you castigated me for characterizing a zygote, embryo or first-term fetus as a “potential person,” and here you are doing exactly the same thing! And in so doing, you are conceding the main point — that a clump of cells is not a person. If it were a person, you wouldn’t to wait for it to become a person, would you?

Can a racist can see a clump of cells that are non -insert least favoured colour here> and decide its not a person and thus kill it? Even if it is outside the womb?

Also I do not see a potential person in the womb. I see a person with unknown potential.

Hey Tigers, you can see the results of the unknown potential. I saw one fellow, who I would assume is among many alive today, who said he was thankful he wasn't aborted - the mother changed her mind. Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

So what are you going to do to help the women then to see that out? Or are you just for rights of others as long as they don't impede on you?

 

[Learner]

s.

No, I don’t see a person. I see a clump of cells. A clump of cells is not a person!

But here you contradict yourself. Earlier you castigated me for characterizing a zygote, embryo or first-term fetus as a “potential person,” and here you are doing exactly the same thing! And in so doing, you are conceding the main point — that a clump of cells is not a person. If it were a person, you wouldn’t to wait for it to become a person, would you?

Can a racist can see a clump of cells that are non -insert least favoured colour here> and decide its not a person and thus kill it? Even if it is outside the womb?

Also I do not see a potential person in the womb. I see a person with unknown potential.

Hey Tigers, you can see the results of the unknown potential. I saw one fellow, who I would assume is among many alive today, who said he was thankful he wasn't aborted - the mother changed her mind. Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

So what are you going to do to help the women then to see that out? Or are you just for rights of others as long as they don't impede on you?

I would be always supporting the community and ideally... the community (a variety of willing people,or professionals ) who of the same mind and understanding, would fully support the woman or girl. ASSURING that person,; by discarding all those usual mental stresses or usual fears which automatically fills the mind, especially when you 'think' you're on your own, I would assume many do. The stressing and overthinking of future struggles; financially, emotionally, health issues, family issues etc. and experiencing pain. With all these combined this could perhaps cause haste descisions, to say the obvious. A supporting community (ideally again) knowing safely what to do for the child; and that child will have a home and loving parents (adopted), the community takes those burdens from the mother who doesn't want the child for what ever reason. I suppose it is unfortunate, a lot of people have got to be in sync for that type of support, which would be my view.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hey Tigers, you can see the results of the unknown potential. I saw one fellow, who I would assume is among many alive today, who said he was thankful he wasn't aborted - the mother changed her mind. Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

So what are you going to do to help the women then to see that out? Or are you just for rights of others as long as they don't impede on you?

I would be always supporting the community and ideally... the community (a variety of willing people,or professionals ) who of the same mind and understanding, would fully support the woman or girl. ASSURING that person,; by discarding all those usual mental stresses or usual fears which automatically fills the mind, especially when you 'think' you're on your own, I would assume many do; while she's also stressing and overthinking of future struggles; financially, emotionally, health issues, family issues etc. and experiencing pain, which perhaps could cause haste descisions; stating the obvious. A supporting community (ideally again) knowing safely what to do for the child; and that child will have a home and loving parents (adopted), the community takes those burdens from the mother who doesn't want the child for what ever reason. I suppose it is unfortunate, a lot of people have got to be in sync for that type of support, which would be my view.

Firstlly, as a reminder, pregnancy is before birth. Pregnancy comes with its own trials as well. And the forced birthing will add substantial anxiety and depression. And again, post birth, there is a recovery, some parts better than others. So what was your role specifically again in this moral crusade to force women to give birth? I mean other than vague references to "community" of which admittedly, you are a member of, but you didn't actually provide any details other than someone else adopts child... You have a pregnant woman, a potential child, and then a post-partum woman. These all need tending to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not see a potential person in the womb. I see a person with unknown potential.

You don’t see ANYTHING “in the womb” unless you’re doing a cesarean section or an autopsy.
That’s another thing that distinguishes a zygote from a person.

These days they can also see in when doing a D&C.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I would be always supporting the community and ideally... the community (a variety of willing people,or professionals ) who of the same mind and understanding, would fully support the woman or girl. ASSURING that person,; by discarding all those usual mental stresses or usual fears which automatically fills the mind, especially when you 'think' you're on your own, I would assume many do. The stressing and overthinking of future struggles; financially, emotionally, health issues, family issues etc. and experiencing pain. With all these combined this could perhaps cause haste descisions, to say the obvious. A supporting community (ideally again) knowing safely what to do for the child; and that child will have a home and loving parents (adopted), the community takes those burdens from the mother who doesn't want the child for what ever reason. I suppose it is unfortunate, a lot of people have got to be in sync for that type of support, which would be my view.

Note that the "pro-life" side does not provide such a supporting community, there's no meaningful help once she's saddled with a child. They got what they want--making sex dangerous.

 

[Learner]

Hey Tigers, you can see the results of the unknown potential. I saw one fellow, who I would assume is among many alive today, who said he was thankful he wasn't aborted - the mother changed her mind. Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

So what are you going to do to help the women then to see that out? Or are you just for rights of others as long as they don't impede on you?

I would be always supporting the community and ideally... the community (a variety of willing people,or professionals ) who of the same mind and understanding, would fully support the woman or girl. ASSURING that person,; by discarding all those usual mental stresses or usual fears which automatically fills the mind, especially when you 'think' you're on your own, I would assume many do; while she's also stressing and overthinking of future struggles; financially, emotionally, health issues, family issues etc. and experiencing pain, which perhaps could cause haste descisions; stating the obvious. A supporting community (ideally again) knowing safely what to do for the child; and that child will have a home and loving parents (adopted), the community takes those burdens from the mother who doesn't want the child for what ever reason. I suppose it is unfortunate, a lot of people have got to be in sync for that type of support, which would be my view.

Firstlly, as a reminder, pregnancy is before birth. Pregnancy comes with its own trials as well. And the forced birthing will add substantial anxiety and depression. And again, post birth, there is a recovery, some parts better than others. So what was your role specifically again? I mean other than vague references to "community" of which admittedly, you are a member of, but you didn't actually provide any details other than someone else adopts child... You have a pregnant woman, a potential child, and then a post-partum woman. These all need tending to.

Cheers for the reminder, I do mean birth, the whole process incuded. My role again? Im a supporter of the community, I have willingly volunteered, I'm not an official or MP. I don't get pregnant, and so I don't have that experience, so no, i wouldn't claim I can feel waht they actually feel. or that I know what it must be like - no argument isue there. I use the reference of community the same as I use the term as in our society, couldn't think of the right word.

 

[Learner]

I would be always supporting the community and ideally... the community (a variety of willing people,or professionals ) who of the same mind and understanding, would fully support the woman or girl. ASSURING that person,; by discarding all those usual mental stresses or usual fears which automatically fills the mind, especially when you 'think' you're on your own, I would assume many do. The stressing and overthinking of future struggles; financially, emotionally, health issues, family issues etc. and experiencing pain. With all these combined this could perhaps cause haste descisions, to say the obvious. A supporting community (ideally again) knowing safely what to do for the child; and that child will have a home and loving parents (adopted), the community takes those burdens from the mother who doesn't want the child for what ever reason. I suppose it is unfortunate, a lot of people have got to be in sync for that type of support, which would be my view.

Note that the "pro-life" side does not provide such a supporting community, there's no meaningful help once she's saddled with a child. They got what they want--making sex dangerous.

Thanks for that Loren, worth knowing more about, and who's leading the way. That is unfortunate,if this being the case, as I mentioned earlier, not everyone is in sync, so to speak, as it seems with this movement, what ever it is.

 

[Tigers!]

s.

No, I don’t see a person. I see a clump of cells. A clump of cells is not a person!

But here you contradict yourself. Earlier you castigated me for characterizing a zygote, embryo or first-term fetus as a “potential person,” and here you are doing exactly the same thing! And in so doing, you are conceding the main point — that a clump of cells is not a person. If it were a person, you wouldn’t to wait for it to become a person, would you?

Can a racist can see a clump of cells that are non -insert least favoured colour here> and decide its not a person and thus kill it? Even if it is outside the womb?

Also I do not see a potential person in the womb. I see a person with unknown potential.

Hey Tigers, you can see the results of the unknown potential. I saw one fellow, who I would assume is among many alive today, who said he was thankful he wasn't aborted - the mother changed her mind. Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

So what are you going to do to help the women then to see that out? Or are you just for rights of others as long as they don't impede on you?

We provide the necessary support for the women who need it when it is needed. I can't any be clearer than that.

 

[Elixir]

Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

Once they exist they do.
“You” didn’t exist before you were born.
If you disagree, please share some of your prenatal experiences!

We provide the necessary support for the women who need it when it is needed.

We do????

 

[Rhea]

I would be always supporting the community and ideally... the community (a variety of willing people,or professionals ) who of the same mind and understanding, would fully support the woman or girl. ASSURING that person,; by discarding all those usual mental stresses or usual fears which automatically fills the mind, especially when you 'think' you're on your own, I would assume many do. The stressing and overthinking of future struggles; financially, emotionally, health issues, family issues etc. and experiencing pain. With all these combined this could perhaps cause haste descisions, to say the obvious. A supporting community (ideally again) knowing safely what to do for the child; and that child will have a home and loving parents (adopted), the community takes those burdens from the mother who doesn't want the child for what ever reason. I suppose it is unfortunate, a lot of people have got to be in sync for that type of support, which would be my view.

If every anti-abortioner on the planet was in sync with this, then women would not turn to abortion for reasons of poverty.

So the difference between what you say and what you do - is still - what you do.

Cheers for the reminder, I do mean birth, the whole process incuded. My role again? Im a supporter of the community, I have willingly volunteered, I'm not an official or MP.

Why aren’t you an official or an MP? Aren’t you willing to do ALL YOU CAN? You’re expecting the women to do it all, and you’re like, “yeah, I gave last Sunday,” it sound like.

- no argument isue there. I use the reference of community the same as I use the term as in our society, couldn't think of the right word.

The community of people who want to control women’s bodies and have NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER of breaking a sweat in making abotions less needed is a Very Large Community. You have a lot of friends!

We provide the necessary support for the women who need it when it is needed. I can't any be clearer than that.

”The necessary suport” ?
Bullshit.
Pausing to reflect… do you really sell yourself this lie? That you are already doing “what’s necessary”? YOu believe that?

”The necessary suport”
The support that feels self-righteous and doesn’t put you out, you mean. And not one jot more.

Your Jesus told you to BEGGAR YOURSELF in order to follow him. Not one in a hundred million “believers” do that.

You let the women suffer, and you take away their autonomy to make as many suffer as possible, removing their avenue to avoid suffering.

I don't get pregnant, and so I don't have that experience, so no, i wouldn't claim I can feel waht they actually feel. or that I know what it must be like

Dude, we can tell.

Your cavalier attitude toward the suffering, fear, dread, and lost opportunity of women makes that crystal clear.

 

[Toni]

So, when is it okay to kill someone?

IMO it is never OK to kill somone except in self-defense.

Note that the meaning of “someone” is a person. A zygote, an embryo and a first-trimenster fetus are not “persons” under any reasonable defintion of the word.

If conception had not occurred, would the zygote or the fetus exist?

How is this relevant to the point?

You asked when it was OK to kill someone. I replied that, imo, it is never OK except in cases of self-defense (or perhaps assissted suicide for the terminally ill in great pain. There could be a few other exceptions). But I pointed out that a zygote, an embryo and a first-trimester fetus is not a “someone”if we accept the perfectly reasonable definition of “someone” as a person. So abortion is not killing “someone.”.

Reasonable only means you have a reason for thinking so and that does not presume perfection. You don't like the idea of killing a person, so you draw a line between the person and the previous non-person. If this person had not been in the state of zygoteness, there would be no person for you to refrain from killing.

There's really nothing reasonable about killing something which given time will be a person, and claiming you have not killed the person it would eventually be.

Why have you lumped justifiable homicide for self defense, assisted suicide, and abortion in the same category? What do they have in common?

But it is not only time which a zygote requires to grow into an independent organism. A zygote requires the use of the woman’s body, her organs, her nutrition, her respiration, her removal of waste from her body and the zygote’s as well

If an embryo/zygote/fetus only required the passive use of a woman’s body, we might feel differently. But in fact, a growing zygote/fetus/whatever stage has a profound and difficult effect on the woman’s body, mind, and health and life! No matter how accommodating an employer, an employee’s pregnancy is not without consequence to the employer or to the woman’s family any more than it is without consent sequences to every aspect of the woman’s life. Some of those consequences are fleeting; some are long lasting. Some are permanent.

It is not possible to have complete foresight as to what those consequences will be. We may think we know. We may plan hope, dread, anticipate but we don’t know.

Which is why the final decision must rest with the woman.

I will confess: many years ago, before I ever could have become pregnant, I thought abortion was awful. I was naive and romantic and idealistic. Gradually I became more aware of circumstances under which I could imagine abortion was the only realistic choice. Rape, severe.birth defects. Eventually I came to realize that however the zygote/fetus came to exist did not afffect the zygote/fetus. If an abortion could be moral in one circumstance, then how can it not be in all circumstances? But certainly it is unreasonable to expect a 12 year old rape victim to carry that pregnancy.

I think everyone is e titled to have whatever opinions they mn at firm.

Ultimately the choice must rest with the woman, no matter how appalled how much others may disapprove.

 

[Tigers!]

Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

Once they exist they do.
“You” didn’t exist before you were born.
If you disagree, please share some of your prenatal experiences!

We provide the necessary support for the women who need it when it is needed.

We do????

We should provide the necessary support but we failing miserably at this point. (missed a crucial word)

 

[bilby]

s.

No, I don’t see a person. I see a clump of cells. A clump of cells is not a person!

But here you contradict yourself. Earlier you castigated me for characterizing a zygote, embryo or first-term fetus as a “potential person,” and here you are doing exactly the same thing! And in so doing, you are conceding the main point — that a clump of cells is not a person. If it were a person, you wouldn’t to wait for it to become a person, would you?

Can a racist can see a clump of cells that are non -insert least favoured colour here> and decide its not a person and thus kill it? Even if it is outside the womb?

Also I do not see a potential person in the womb. I see a person with unknown potential.

Hey Tigers, you can see the results of the unknown potential. I saw one fellow, who I would assume is among many alive today, who said he was thankful he wasn't aborted - the mother changed her mind. Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

Celine Dion was also greatful she wasn't aborted I read somewhere. Some may have issues with that, not being fans of her music.

You are always going to get a distorted view if you look only at half of the picture.

Sure, that aborted fetus might have been the next Albert Einstein, the next Nelson Mandela, or the next William Shakespeare. But equally, it might have been the next Pol Pot, or the next Joseph Stalin, or even the next Celine Dion.

It’s not reasonable to look at the things that didn’t happen, and only imagine the good things that might have been; You also need to imagine the bad things. Or better still, drop your idle speculation about stuff that didn’t (or won’t) happen. It’s all imaginary, so it’s not worth getting excited about.

There’s a school of thought that regards ‘reacting to imaginary things, as though those things were real’ as the very definition of insanity.

 

[Learner]

Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

Once they exist they do.
“You” didn’t exist before you were born.
If you disagree, please share some of your prenatal experiences!

"Once they do they do..."
Well yes ... they do... omce aborted they don't.

I disagree, like, you were fortunate that you were wanted, and to exist as a human being.

 

[Learner]

s.

No, I don’t see a person. I see a clump of cells. A clump of cells is not a person!

But here you contradict yourself. Earlier you castigated me for characterizing a zygote, embryo or first-term fetus as a “potential person,” and here you are doing exactly the same thing! And in so doing, you are conceding the main point — that a clump of cells is not a person. If it were a person, you wouldn’t to wait for it to become a person, would you?

Can a racist can see a clump of cells that are non -insert least favoured colour here> and decide its not a person and thus kill it? Even if it is outside the womb?

Also I do not see a potential person in the womb. I see a person with unknown potential.

Hey Tigers, you can see the results of the unknown potential. I saw one fellow, who I would assume is among many alive today, who said he was thankful he wasn't aborted - the mother changed her mind. Feeling from their perspective. They have the right to EXIST!

Celine Dion was also greatful she wasn't aborted I read somewhere. Some may have issues with that, not being fans of her music.

You are always going to get a distorted view if you look only at half of the picture.

Sure, that aborted fetus might have been the next Albert Einstein, the next Nelson Mandela, or the next William Shakespeare. But equally, it might have been the next Pol Pot, or the next Joseph Stalin, or even the next Celine Dion.

It’s not reasonable to look at the things that didn’t happen, and only imagine the good things that might have been; You also need to imagine the bad things. Or better still, drop your idle speculation about stuff that didn’t (or won’t) happen. It’s all imaginary, so it’s not worth getting excited about.

There’s a school of thought that regards ‘reacting to imaginary things, as though those things were real’ as the very definition of insanity.

I think it is down to a particular mode of thinking, that we got used to, say for example, the simplest of things, merely influenced by sight, edged on by individuals trying to explain the science of cells being merely cells, for example: along the line of early developement, as the conversation trend sometimes seems to portay on the thread, the rethoric goes, in a manner of speaking : "it doesn't look human therefore it ain't humanoid enough to matter the conscience, even if a human life IS devloping; so it's ok to end it's existence"