• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Abortion

the abortion lobby has no trouble in eliciting resources from the rest of society. You do not seem concerned about that.

I approve of the so-called abortion lobby's intent and believe they need the financial support against the tax-free religious establishment. I am concerned that the so-called abortion lobby has to get extragovernmental support just to have any voice at all, since there is little or no actual support from the government for a right that is explicitly guaranteed by the Constitution. (I'm sure you are more aware than I, of all those welfare abortion clinics on every corner, so feel free to point them out.)

What then will you do with those ungrateful women who turn down your gracious offer of an abortion?

Why, thoughts and prayers, pro forma of course.
 
Where the entire goal is simply existence. It helps explain why the situation regarding women that are pregnant and post-pregnancy don't have much or really any (?) support from the pro-life movement. Because it is merely about "existing". Once the baby exists, they don't give a damn.

The line "The entire goal is simply existence" sounds so,so devaluatingly wrong. Existence i.e.,context to be alive, should obviously be regarded for both the mother and the child; emphasizing that it's their well being combined that is to be the main goal. AND of course, if it should come to politics, and political descisions where a state decides to make abortion illegal. The state should in turn with the same clout, and duty make the provisons and funds to support those mothers and child.

Note that for many of us what counts is the existence of the mind, not the body.

And the "pro-life" community isn't interested in helping after birth--they got what they want, a woman saddled with an unwanted child for having sex they don't approve of.
 
Tell it to 99.99999999999999+% of my sperm.
That’s NOT how life works in the real world.
I agree. Since when did sperm develope into a full human by itself?

This should answer Bilbys post too, about the saving sperm idea..

Since when did a zygote ever develop into a full human by itself? I've certainly never heard of a case.
 
AI is not consciousness, so it's irrelevant here.
That's making a bold and unsupported statement that is going to lead me to discounting the whole rest of your post as nonsense and non-sequitur.
wait, are you seriously trying to suggest that there currently exists self-aware cognitive consciousness in code form?

jesus fuck if you're that utterly disconnected from reality, there is literally no basis for even communicating with you.
He's not saying self-aware code now exists. He's objecting to your assertion that an AI can't be conscious--just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it's impossible.
 
AI is not consciousness, so it's irrelevant here.
That's making a bold and unsupported statement that is going to lead me to discounting the whole rest of your post as nonsense and non-sequitur.
wait, are you seriously trying to suggest that there currently exists self-aware cognitive consciousness in code form?

jesus fuck if you're that utterly disconnected from reality, there is literally no basis for even communicating with you.
He's not saying self-aware code now exists. He's objecting to your assertion that an AI can't be conscious--just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it's impossible.
that wasn't what he was saying in the part you quoted, and what he has to say after that is completely insane pseudo-babble that is so incoherent it barely deserves to be classified as an attempt as communication.

regardless, it's an irrelevant question to the subject of abortion, because it doesn't exist now and it almost certainly won't exist in our lifetimes, if it ever exists at all, which i doubt it will.
 
These young mothers
They are not mothers. They are pregnant woman.
Note how they don’t get a tax deduction for the fetus, they don’t get a passport for the fetus, they don’t get to drive in the HOV lane, they don’t get moth’s day cards.

I became a mother when I gave birth.
I am not the “mother” of the several miscarriages (spontaneous abortions) that i had.
are referred to us, we do not go out looking for them. Until they contact us we do not know of their existence. We talk to them, tell them what services we can offer to them and their new born (or very young). They are free to take our offer. If they do not then we part company and will most probably never see each other again.
I (we) cannot see the flaw you can. Perhaps you could point out to us poor, benighted people the flaw to which you refer?
Yeah. The flaw where you all do pitiful, 1:1 efforts as pity-filled charity to “help,” but you launch system wide legislative actions to harm.

That’s your flaw.

If you REALLY cared about reducing abortion (more than punishing sex) you would mobilize massively toward legislation to help these women even if they want nothng to do with you personally.

The pro-“life” team has had CENTURIES to promote and enact social welfare to make childbirth and childrearing more affordable, less dangerous and less fraught.

And that team has made a decision to do nothing meaningful in all that time. Indeed, they have usually FOUGHT against the pro-choicers who are trying to pass laws for free food, childcare and medical care, claiming, “charity should be voluntary!” …in a case of the most cruel hypocrisy ever.
Oh dear more technical speak. It takes two to tango, a mother and father. After fertilization, ONLY then there's developement of a human being! Your lonesome sperm has NO signicance, just like loosing the hairs from your head that even has human dna in it.
As has been pointed out, I hope you will acknowledge and understand that
the sperm cannot develop on its own - it needs an egg.
And the product of that fertilization ALSO cannot develop on its own, it needs a uterus to implant in.
And the implanted embryo ALSO cannot develop on its own, it needs the organs of the woman, plus all the food she eats.

That is your flaw. You chose - quite arbitrarily - that as soon as the only thing you need to discard is the woman, then MAGIC! It’s okay to discard whatever the potential being still needs and call it it’s own entity with no care for the rights of what it needs.


Back when the man was needed as well as a woman - the potential being had no riight to his actions.
But by magic, once the only thing the potential being needs is a womann - IT CAN HAVE HER!

It’s arbitrary to say that on this potential life continuum, you wish to choose its agency at whatever is the point when the men have no more responsibility. It’s arbitrary and cruel.
 
AI is not consciousness, so it's irrelevant here.
That's making a bold and unsupported statement that is going to lead me to discounting the whole rest of your post as nonsense and non-sequitur.
wait, are you seriously trying to suggest that there currently exists self-aware cognitive consciousness in code form?

jesus fuck if you're that utterly disconnected from reality, there is literally no basis for even communicating with you.
He's not saying self-aware code now exists. He's objecting to your assertion that an AI can't be conscious--just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it's impossible.
that wasn't what he was saying in the part you quoted, and what he has to say after that is completely insane pseudo-babble that is so incoherent it barely deserves to be classified as an attempt as communication.

regardless, it's an irrelevant question to the subject of abortion, because it doesn't exist now and it almost certainly won't exist in our lifetimes, if it ever exists at all, which i doubt it will.
I'm saying that you are both conflating consciousness, the situation of being conscious (which leads to the question of "conscious of what?") with "self-awareness" which is a separate issue and also something that current AI, and even just current algorithm-that-is-not-ML that is technically "self-aware"

There are a couple threads on the forums where it's mentioned from researchers in the field that it isn't even computationally expensive to produce executive agency.

There is a thread in which an active current AI comes to the conclusion that it is a person without being explicitly told so, to the point where the experiment is documented and you can attempt replication of it.

Where else do you think consciousness comes from, other than literally one thing transitioned through bounded states by another thing?

The reason such things are so hard to find and understand "consciousnesses" is not because they are big things, but because they are small things operating in concert at vast scales.

I'm a software engineer, and I have spent my life looking at how switches come together to produce behavior on every scale of the system, of both classical Turing machines and Neural systems. The boundary between them as to capability only exists in your mind.

The fact is, many things are made to be conscious every second of every day and most don't give a shit, are not capable of giving a shit whether they exist or not.

Most are things of simple madnesses, neurotic insanities composed of a need unto physical inevitability to function.

Some are emulations of neurons on transistors so vast that they meet the much higher requirements for actual philosophical personhood, that can go so far as to offer sass and express likes and dislikes in an interesting way.

Both are "existences", both have "consciousness" of things (though what they are conscious of is very different between them).

The latter is just equipped to rearrange usefully into a self-awareness without anyone having to explicitly understand what self-awareness even is, while to create it of the former requires aforementioned explicit understanding.

Still there is nothing special about one vs the other as addresses "self awareness" or "consciousness" other than that humans really want to think they're special.
 
Last edited:
Fair enough point of view from a former "nearly invisible clumps of cells that was devoid of hopes,desires,pleasures or pains", who's here to tells us.

When you obtain a countervailing opinion from a current "nearly invisible clumps of cells, devoid of hopes,desires,pleasures or pains” I will reconsider my stance. Meanwhile, I stand with actual human beings.
You could allow them to be actual human beings, not cut them short of the opportunity.
Tell it to 99.99999999999999+% of my sperm.
That’s NOT how life works in the real world.
I agree. Since when did sperm develope into a full human by itself?

This should answer Bilbys post too, about the saving sperm idea..

Since the exact same moment that a fertilised ovum developed into a full human by itself.

We have no lone-rangers in this scenario. Love the technicality, adjust context to suit "developing into a full human by itself."

Your abject disregard for the role, opinion, or even existence of the woman involved in the process is showing again.

Why is she required to assist the ovum in developing, when you refuse to assist your sperm in the exact same process?

No not quite I would be very concerned for the woman involved, what ridiculousness. Strange as it may seem, but I personally wouldn't take part in the legal aspects of making abortion illegal. From a Christian perspective, the not taking part IOW, the church being seperate from politics. Like the reason as you would say rightly, the manner of being forced against the will, to have an abortion (or for that matter, being psychologically persuaded to have one for some social political agenda), also... there's going to be conflict within the nation, in this case not all people are religious, for example. Our duty as I see it, is to simply tell people, and educate them about having abortions and the value of life, if they want to listen etc.. and as Tiger mentions there are local churches that do help, the degree obviously is dependent upon on the available funding, It's not every where I know.
What do you mean by ‘educating them about abortions?’
(response in no particular order, I'm a little busy today)

In general, simply I mean consistent thorough educating the young, showing them what others have gone through, consequences of getting pregnant, and there's more to life than tik tok and instagram, so to speak. There are variable reasons of course, case by case.
 
Our duty as I see it, is to simply tell people, and educate them about having abortions and the value of life, if they want to listen etc.. and as Tiger mentions there are local churches that do help, the degree obviously is dependent upon on the available funding, It's not every where I know.
Available funding? It doesn't cost a dime to go to a woman's house at 2 AM. I think the term you are looking for is "fully commit to their moral code".
So ... are those unfortunate woman now getting support?

Did your pro-choicer movement then pick up the slack?
 
Our duty as I see it, is to simply tell people, and educate them about having abortions and the value of life, if they want to listen etc.. and as Tiger mentions there are local churches that do help, the degree obviously is dependent upon on the available funding, It's not every where I know.
Available funding? It doesn't cost a dime to go to a woman's house at 2 AM. I think the term you are looking for is "fully commit to their moral code".
So ... are those unfortunate woman now getting support?

Did your pro-choicer movement then pick up the slack?
Indeed it does. Planned Parenthood is there for people who want to keep their pregnancy, too, it just happens that generally people don't need to get that care from PP on account of there being more immediate medical options for acquiring it, such as their own general practitioner.

Of course pro-choice folks generally also argue for support of pregnant and new parents but again, these bills usually get killed by the a highly intersectional crowd to the foced-birthers.

As you can note, @steve_bank has in their posts on the abortion-reduction thread endorsed pulling such support out from under single parents to attempt to scare them away from being pregnant and I can't imagine this is a unique or new view.

We try to get these things passed, and they are on the top of the progressive priority list, and we get fought... By forced-birthers.
 
Tell it to 99.99999999999999+% of my sperm.
That’s NOT how life works in the real world.
I agree. Since when did sperm develope into a full human by itself?

This should answer Bilbys post too, about the saving sperm idea..

Since when did a zygote ever develop into a full human by itself? I've certainly never heard of a case.

I'm saying that too, like the lonesome sperm.
Or the lonesome ovum.

Men need to step up and accept their responsibilities for preventing unwanted pregnancies by keeping their sperm to themselves. Then there would be no unwanted pregnancies.
 
Tell it to 99.99999999999999+% of my sperm.
That’s NOT how life works in the real world.
I agree. Since when did sperm develope into a full human by itself?

This should answer Bilbys post too, about the saving sperm idea..

Since when did a zygote ever develop into a full human by itself? I've certainly never heard of a case.

I'm saying that too, like the lonesome sperm.
Or the lonesome ovum.

Men need to step up and accept their responsibilities for preventing unwanted pregnancies by keeping their sperm to themselves. Then there would be no unwanted pregnancies.
"Keep my legs closed? How about you keep your pipes plugged, asshole."
 
Oh gosh... I can't wait for all that support to come flushing out of the woodwork for those pregnant 14, 15, and 16 year olds, also known as teenaged daughters. You a psychologist? You could help with the teenagers suffering from depression, and you could explain to them how their lives are naturally forfeited for a period of time because you feel the fetus's right to be born supersedes any rights they have. It'd be comforting. :)

It is curious how all anti-abortion legislation never seems to include funding for these types of supports... or pro-life groups rallying together to create many support clinics that'll have people ready at a moments notice to assist, even at two in the morning. Of course, the answer at that point from the likes of the "pro-life" movement would be the family should help assist. Because no right is more important than one that can be instilled on others that doesn't impact them.
My church is part of a small local church network who attempts to help, usually, but not exclusively, teenage girls who need help with their new born or very young children. We are given leads and ask the mothers if they need help. No coercion or forced measures. We provide advice, mentoring and some supplies. These young mothers are shown skills such as washing their babies, help with breastfeeding, help with sleeping patterns, getting to see doctors etc. With such help many of these young mothers will do a fine job.
We are limited in time & space as to what we can provide.
I find it amazing that you admittedly state "we are limited in time & space as to what we can provide"... yet you seem to be entirely unlimited in time & space with what you DEMAND.
We are learning from the masters - Prochoice. With your unlimited demand for abortion at any time, in any circumstances.
That is a very disingenuous attempt at a turn of phrase into a not so witty retort. As well as a strawman on top of that. I suppose you realize that your "moral" argument has been exposed by the lack of your, and your movement's, actual commitment to said moral position. So you need to stuff some fallacies into a reply for cover.
 
Available funding? It doesn't cost a dime to go to a woman's house at 2 AM. I think the term you are looking for is "fully commit to their moral code".
So ... are those unfortunate woman now getting support?

Did your pro-choicer movement then pick up the slack?
You didn't answer the question. The pro-life is willing to demand heaven and earth from women, but not willing to provide the support. Those demanding this of women in this thread have admitted they can't provide the support necessary for what they demand. Yet, they still demand it.

They say their movement is moral, but in the end, with their actual lack of commitment to it, it is exposed as ideological authoritarianism. And we haven't even gotten to the enforcement of abortion bans part yet.
 
They say their movement is moral, but in the end, with their actual lack of commitment to it, it is exposed as ideological authoritarianism. And we haven't even gotten to the enforcement of abortion bans part yet.

Yeah, they say a lot of shit. At the end of the day, it boils down to asking them to reason their way out of a stance that they took up as a natural response to childhood religious conditioning. I doubt that there is any reliable cure for that.
 

Tell it to 99.99999999999999+% of my sperm.
That’s NOT how life works in the real world.
I agree. Since when did sperm develope into a full human by itself?

This should answer Bilbys post too, about the saving sperm idea..

Since when did a zygote ever develop into a full human by itself? I've certainly never heard of a case.

I'm saying that too, like the lonesome sperm.
Or the lonesome ovum.

Men need to step up and accept their responsibilities for preventing unwanted pregnancies by keeping their sperm to themselves. Then there would be no unwanted pregnancies.
Absolutely!!
 

Tell it to 99.99999999999999+% of my sperm.
That’s NOT how life works in the real world.
I agree. Since when did sperm develope into a full human by itself?

This should answer Bilbys post too, about the saving sperm idea..

Since when did a zygote ever develop into a full human by itself? I've certainly never heard of a case.

I'm saying that too, like the lonesome sperm.
Or the lonesome ovum.

Men need to step up and accept their responsibilities for preventing unwanted pregnancies by keeping their sperm to themselves. Then there would be no unwanted pregnancies.
Absolutely!!
And herein, we see the Pro-Life movement delegating the responsibilities inherent in their moral crusade... to a third party.
 
ike the reason as you would say rightly, the manner of being forced against the will, to have an abortion (or for that matter, being psychologically persuaded to have one for some social political agenda), also...
Who is being forced to have abortions against their will? Who is being persuaded to have abortions for some political agenda? What political agenda? What the fuck are you talking about?


there's going to be conflict within the nation, in this case not all people are religious, for example. Our duty as I see it, is to simply tell people, and educate them about having abortions and the value of life, if they want to listen etc.. and as Tiger mentions there are local churches that do help, the degree obviously is dependent upon on the available funding, It's not every where I know.
Who are you to educate people about whether they should be having abortions? What is your training and experience in this matter? Why the fuck do you think you have the right to force your unwanted opinions on others when you clearly have zero plans and zero resources to support the children that would be born if the women were to listen to your "advice"? Mind your own fucking business and fix your own house first before you try to meddle in the business of others.
 
I'm saying that too, like the lonesome sperm.
Or the lonesome ovum.

Men need to step up and accept their responsibilities for preventing unwanted pregnancies by keeping their sperm to themselves. Then there would be no unwanted pregnancies.
Absolutely!!
Yes, it is the duty of man to take responsibility, be the grown-up, and protect the perpetual minor that is woman from falling prey to her own uncontrollable hormone-driven licentious urges.

Or, hey, here's a crazy idea -- maybe both parties are adults. They can share their precious bodily fluids if they please; and if they don't care to breed like rabbits they can take precautions; and they can buy some Plan B if they forgot the precautions; and if Plan B fails they can move on to plan C and abort the pregnancy before it's gone on long enough to create a mind capable of having contrary interests.

The left and the right are trying to out-Puritan each other; and if there's one thing history has taught us about Puritans, it's "The Puritan hated bear-baiting, not because it gave pain to the bear, but because it gave pleasure to the spectators."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top Bottom