Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[Metaphor]

Evidently you don't want to hear that but for your eggs, you would never have fallen pregnant.

"Fallen pregnant". Because the woman did that to herself, right? Because she's the one who failed to be responsible about it? Yep. She "fell pregnant". FFS, you're half a step away from "got herself knocked up".

A woman engaged in consensual behaviour that caused her to be pregnant.

Why do you appear so hostile to the fact that eggs are as necessary as sperm in creating a pregnancy? I honestly don't understand it.

Any hostility on my part is purely imaginary.

Male hostility to the simple statement: Every pregnancy is the result of a man ejaculating, OTOH: That’s pretty substantial.

Every pregnancy is the result of a woman ovulating.

 

[Bomb#20]

... I’ve stated a simple fact of biology: every single pregnancy begins with a man ejaculating. That is what causes pregnancy.

Men are losing their minds over some woman having the unmitigated gall to state that simple fact of biology. ...

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice: What I tell you three times is true." - Lewis Carroll

Toni, you keep saying that over and over. And IIRC you said you're a scientist. So you should know better than to make unscientific claims like that one and try to cloak them in the authority of science. What you are doing here is no different from what Christians are doing when they claim it's a simple fact of biology that a human life begins at conception. Life is a cycle. It goes in a circle. A circle has no beginning and no end. There is no scientific basis whatsoever for picking one event in the life cycle and claiming that that's where the cycle starts. Such claims are metaphysics. They're religion.

If you disagree, show your work. By all means, please explain to the board how your claim "every single pregnancy begins with a man ejaculating" is falsifiable. If that's a "fact of biology", then what biological experiment could we possibly do that would falsify your claim if it were to come out a certain way? If Metaphor says a pregnancy begins with an ovulation and you say it begins with an ejaculation and Tom says it begins with a fertilization and Emily says it begins with an implantation, what distinguishable predictions of observable events are implied by all your distinct claims about what every single pregnancy begins with?

 

[Toni]

Evidently you don't want to hear that but for your eggs, you would never have fallen pregnant.

"Fallen pregnant". Because the woman did that to herself, right? Because she's the one who failed to be responsible about it? Yep. She "fell pregnant". FFS, you're half a step away from "got herself knocked up".

A woman engaged in consensual behaviour that caused her to be pregnant.

Why do you appear so hostile to the fact that eggs are as necessary as sperm in creating a pregnancy? I honestly don't understand it.

Any hostility on my part is purely imaginary.

Male hostility to the simple statement: Every pregnancy is the result of a man ejaculating, OTOH: That’s pretty substantial.

Every pregnancy is the result of a woman ovulating.

So, involuntary process on the part of woman > voluntary action on part of man.

Got it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Any hostility on my part is purely imaginary.

Male hostility to the simple statement: Every pregnancy is the result of a man ejaculating, OTOH: That’s pretty substantial.

Every pregnancy is the result of a woman ovulating.

So, involuntary process on the part of woman > voluntary action on part of man.

Got it.

I think they are saying they are equal.

 

[bigfield]

If you disagree, show your work. By all means, please explain to the board how your claim "every single pregnancy begins with a man ejaculating" is falsifiable. If that's a "fact of biology", then what biological experiment could we possibly do that would falsify your claim if it were to come out a certain way? If Metaphor says a pregnancy begins with an ovulation and you say it begins with an ejaculation and Tom says it begins with a fertilization and Emily says it begins with an implantation, what distinguishable predictions of observable events are implied by all your distinct claims about what every single pregnancy begins with?

Aren't they all true? Pregnancy begins with an ovulation, an ejaculation, fertilisation and an implantation.

Surely the obvious point is that ejaculation is a necessary part of causing a pregnancy and it's a part of a pregnancy that the father must contribute.

On top of that, biology has empowered men to choose when and where they ejaculate. They forgo a lot of other ejaculatory destinations when they choose to ejaculate inside or near a vagina. If nothing else, I'd say that means it's pretty foolish for a man to risk causing a pregnancy he doesn't want to happen when it's a risk so easily avoided.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It seems the argument is if the woman consents, the man is powerless to do it anywhere else. It seems a dubious thing.

Thread itself seems ridiculously dubious. Who is responsible... like we are an insurance company trying to assess blame for the pregnancy accident.

 

[Toni]

If you disagree, show your work. By all means, please explain to the board how your claim "every single pregnancy begins with a man ejaculating" is falsifiable. If that's a "fact of biology", then what biological experiment could we possibly do that would falsify your claim if it were to come out a certain way? If Metaphor says a pregnancy begins with an ovulation and you say it begins with an ejaculation and Tom says it begins with a fertilization and Emily says it begins with an implantation, what distinguishable predictions of observable events are implied by all your distinct claims about what every single pregnancy begins with?

Aren't they all true? Pregnancy begins with an ovulation, an ejaculation, fertilisation and an implantation.

Surely the obvious point is that ejaculation is a necessary part of causing a pregnancy and it's a part of a pregnancy that the father must contribute.

On top of that, biology has empowered men to choose when and where they ejaculate. They forgo a lot of other ejaculatory destinations when they choose to ejaculate inside or near a vagina. If nothing else, I'd say that means it's pretty foolish for a man to risk causing a pregnancy he doesn't want to happen when it's a risk so easily avoided.

Exactly.

 

[Toni]

It seems the argument is if the woman consents, the man is powerless to do it anywhere else. It seems a dubious thing.

Thread itself seems ridiculously dubious. Who is responsible... like we are an insurance company trying to assess blame for the pregnancy accident.

I never intended my initial statement: ‘Every pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation’ to be a derail or to spark this long pointless contentious thread. I thought I was making a simple, factual declaration.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It seems the argument is if the woman consents, the man is powerless to do it anywhere else. It seems a dubious thing.

Thread itself seems ridiculously dubious. Who is responsible... like we are an insurance company trying to assess blame for the pregnancy accident.

I never intended my initial statement: ‘Every pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation’ to be a derail or to spark this long pointless contentious thread. I thought I was making a simple, factual declaration.

You should know better.

Reminds me of an alleged Native saying about the why you were shot with an arrow is less important than the fact that there is an arrow in your chest. A woman is pregnant. NOW WHAT?! I suppose 7 to 8 more months of arguing and bitching about who is to blame could be an answer.

And right now, women are facing the risk of hemorrhaging to death in lieu of going through a pregnancy because if she goes to a hospital, she'll be caught with SCOTUS deciding that the state should decide what a pregnant woman can do with her body, not her.

But please, let's get back to women being just as responsible for being pregnant due to consensual sex terms... because she'll be responsible for about every physical, mental hardship of pregnancy without any other options (excluding hemorrhaging). Where as the guy... might need to open his wallet... or make with a shotgun wedding.

 

[Toni]

... I’ve stated a simple fact of biology: every single pregnancy begins with a man ejaculating. That is what causes pregnancy.

Men are losing their minds over some woman having the unmitigated gall to state that simple fact of biology. ...

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice: What I tell you three times is true." - Lewis Carroll

Toni, you keep saying that over and over. And IIRC you said you're a scientist. So you should know better than to make unscientific claims like that one and try to cloak them in the authority of science. What you are doing here is no different from what Christians are doing when they claim it's a simple fact of biology that a human life begins at conception. Life is a cycle. It goes in a circle. A circle has no beginning and no end. There is no scientific basis whatsoever for picking one event in the life cycle and claiming that that's where the cycle starts. Such claims are metaphysics. They're religion.

If you disagree, show your work. By all means, please explain to the board how your claim "every single pregnancy begins with a man ejaculating" is falsifiable. If that's a "fact of biology", then what biological experiment could we possibly do that would falsify your claim if it were to come out a certain way? If Metaphor says a pregnancy begins with an ovulation and you say it begins with an ejaculation and Tom says it begins with a fertilization and Emily says it begins with an implantation, what distinguishable predictions of observable events are implied by all your distinct claims about what every single pregnancy begins with?

How is the statement: ‘Every pregnancy begins with some man ejaculating’ false, from a biological standpoint?

I made no claim that ejaculation was sufficient; merely that it is necessary.

A woman can ovulate every month for 40 years or longer and never become pregnant without a man ejaculating. This is true even if her eggs are harvested. It’s true whether or not she consents to any sexual contact. Ever.

Sperm production is equivalent to ovulation in terms of producing gametes.

Ejaculating is necessary to release sperm to fertilize the ova. Ejaculation is voluntary under most circumstances as is the choice of where to ejaculate. A woman can be impregnated whether or not she chooses to have a penis inserted into her vagina and whether or not she agrees to have a man ejaculate inside or near her vagina.

Yes, women can block ovulation by taking the pill, assuming that they are medically able to do so safely, have the finances to pay for the medical visit and prescription, and is willing to tolerate whatever side effects that may result from taking the pill. These side effects can range from beneficial to mild to extremely disruptive.

A man can use a condom, which is inexpensive, available without a prescription and immediately restores his ability to impregnate a woman simply by not using one. Or he can ejaculate not inside or near her vagina.

All of those statements are absolutely factual.

Obviously ovulation plus ejaculation are both necessary for a pregnancy to occur. They are not sufficient, however.

 

[Emily Lake]

Every pregnancy is the result of a woman ovulating.

Let's try an analogy. Maybe I can put this in terms that resonate with you.

Every anal tear a guy experiences is the result of a man being gay.

Anal tearing is a risk with anal sex. The risk is increased if the anal sex is rough, or if there isn't sufficient lubrication. Obviously, not all anal sex will result in tearing. And also obviously, it takes two to engage in anal sex, so it's consensual.

Is it the responsibility of the bottom to ensure that the top doesn't get rough? Is it the responsibility of the bottom to ensure that the top uses sufficient lube and adds more as needed to stay safe?

Even if the bottom takes all the right steps - tells their partner to use lots of lube, insists on him not being rough, etc. - if tearing occurs, that harm is born entirely by the bottom, isn't it? If the bottom takes all the responsible steps he can, and still ends up torn, who is responsible for that tear?

Does the top have any responsibility to care for the health and wellbeing of his partner? Does he have any responsibility of his own to make sure that he doesn't cause a tear?

 

[Emily Lake]

I think they are saying they are equal.

I get that's what's being said. I'm saying they are NOT equal.

In current culture, women have complete responsibility for something that they have no control over. Men have no responsibility for something that they have complete control over. It takes both a sperm and an egg, but only one party has control over where their gametes are deposited. And that party is the one who is not expected to be responsible for their gametes.

That's NOT equal.

 

[laughing dog]

It seems the argument is if the woman consents, the man is powerless to do it anywhere else. It seems a dubious thing.

Thread itself seems ridiculously dubious. Who is responsible... like we are an insurance company trying to assess blame for the pregnancy accident.

I never intended my initial statement: ‘Every pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation’ to be a derail or to spark this long pointless contentious thread. I thought I was making a simple, factual declaration.

Yeah, but that fact made some penises shrink, hence the outcry.

 

[TomC]

they all true? Pregnancy begins with an ovulation, an ejaculation, fertilisation and an implantation.

You missed the crucial part.
Pregnancy begins when two gametes merge to form a new human being. All the ovulation and sperm production in the world won't result in a pregnancy, except under very specific and well understood conditions.

If that happens without mutual consent, we have a word for it. An ugly crime. It's rape.

If nothing else, I'd say that means it's pretty foolish for people to risk causing a pregnancy they doesn't want to happen when it's a risk so easily avoided.

Fixed that for you, making it non sex bigoted.
People risk pregnancy, not just men. And it is avoidable, by means of an available, safe, and 100% effective birth control method.

There are birth control methods nearly as effective, although not quite. If the woman is on The Pill and the man is rubbered up and it's a "safe" time in her menstrual cycle...

Not all of these things are as widely available around the globe as they are here in the USA. So, the USA is all I'm talking about.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think they are saying they are equal.

I get that's what's being said.

Great, I was replying to Toni's post.

I'm saying they are NOT equal.

In current culture, women have complete responsibility for something that they have no control over. Men have no responsibility for something that they have complete control over. It takes both a sperm and an egg, but only one party has control over where their gametes are deposited. And that party is the one who is not expected to be responsible for their gametes.

And ultimately, this is the log jam.

Some guys: But she said I could do B, so she is equally responsible.
Gals: But you didn't have to B.
Some guys: But she said I could.

Those three lines have effectively taken 290 posts of this thread.

Ultimately, it is up to the guy (gals point). The woman... she can't do much with the ovulation thing, without going sterile. So, that risk in sorts a bit mitigatable, but ultimately, it is always shrouded in some level of gray. The guy, it isn't gray. How the semen are dealt with is pretty much 100% controllable. Some guys here want to mitigate that risk by blaming the woman for allowing him to introduce sperm into the equation, and there is some logic to that. But ultimately, if a guy doesn't want to get a woman pregnant... that is in his hands. Consent to be allowed to do something is not a pregnancy mitigation.

Kind of like driving a car and there is a situation where another car does something wrong, and you get into an accident, it is their fault... but if you hit the brakes, you avoid the accident. In the end, while the accident being their fault, your car was totaled. And that is quite the inconvenience.

Saying the woman is responsible because of consent post pregnancy isn't particularly helpful is PREVENTING A PREGNANCY!

 

[TSwizzle]

In current culture, women have complete responsibility for something that they have no control over. Men have no responsibility for something that they have complete control over.

I don't think that is true nor is that what people are saying in regards to getting pregnant. I've certainly not said that. If a woman gets pregnant she is somewhat responsible for getting pregnant which is different to responsible for the consequences which does fall mostly (unfairly) on the woman.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In current culture, women have complete responsibility for something that they have no control over. Men have no responsibility for something that they have complete control over.

I don't think that is true nor is that what people are saying in regards to getting pregnant. I've certainly not said that. If a woman gets pregnant she is somewhat responsible for getting pregnant which is different to responsible for the consequences which does fall mostly (unfairly) on the woman.

Today on the dumbest distinctions.

 

[laughing dog]

If nothing else, I'd say that means it's pretty foolish for people to risk causing a pregnancy they doesn't want to happen when it's a risk so easily avoided.

Fixed that for you, making it non sex bigoted.
People risk pregnancy, not just men.

Men do not risk pregnancy. Men risk the potential consequencies of pregnancy. Only females risk pregnancy.

 

[Toni]

If nothing else, I'd say that means it's pretty foolish for people to risk causing a pregnancy they doesn't want to happen when it's a risk so easily avoided.

Fixed that for you, making it non sex bigoted.
People risk pregnancy, not just men.

Men do not risk pregnancy. Men risk the potential consequencies of pregnancy. Only females risk pregnancy.

Men do not risk pregnancy. Men risk some of the potential consequences of pregnancy--they might have to pay child support. OTOH, married men and married men with children typically out-earn single men. Only women risk pregnancy. Women risk the physical complications and repercussions of pregnancy, as well as economic, educational and social consequences of pregnancy.

 

[Metaphor]

Evidently you don't want to hear that but for your eggs, you would never have fallen pregnant.

"Fallen pregnant". Because the woman did that to herself, right? Because she's the one who failed to be responsible about it? Yep. She "fell pregnant". FFS, you're half a step away from "got herself knocked up".

A woman engaged in consensual behaviour that caused her to be pregnant.

Why do you appear so hostile to the fact that eggs are as necessary as sperm in creating a pregnancy? I honestly don't understand it.

Any hostility on my part is purely imaginary.

Male hostility to the simple statement: Every pregnancy is the result of a man ejaculating, OTOH: That’s pretty substantial.

Every pregnancy is the result of a woman ovulating.

So, involuntary process on the part of woman > voluntary action on part of man.

Got it.

No, you don't have it. I don't know what your use of the greater than symbol means, but I'm certain it's wrong.

Every conception is the result of the fusion of a sperm and an egg. Unless nonconsent is involved, she is as responsible for the conception as the man is.