January 6 Hearings Live

[Copernicus]

Do Dems lie as much as Trump and Repubs?

House Democrats have a chance now to prove that the Repubs are the worse liars...

That is not at issue here. Personally, I don't know whether Democrats would lie as much if they had a president like Donald Trump, but I'm pretty sure that they would never put themselves in the position by nominating such a flawed, incompetent individual. I think that Democrats are personally just as honest and dishonest as Republicans. They are all human beings, and officeholders have little choice but to pander to their voting base. Otherwise, they tend to lose elections.

The issue here is whether Trump intended to go to the Capitol to support the rioters, whom he apparently knew to be armed and dangerous. It is not whether Hutchinson, a loyal Republican and erstwhile Trump supporter, got some details wrong because her memory failed her. She appeared to be trying, as best she could, to recall the events of the day, and it is very possible that she remembered them to be more dramatic than they actually were. We'd need testimony from witnesses who could corroborate her. Even eyewitnesses to crimes tend to misremember things and have false recollections of what happened.

See:

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence​

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Do Dems lie as much as Trump and Repubs?

House Democrats have a chance now to prove that the Repubs are the worse liars...

That is not at issue here. Personally, I don't know whether Democrats would lie as much if they had a president like Donald Trump, but I'm pretty sure that they would never put themselves in the position by nominating such a flawed, incompetent individual. I think that Democrats are personally just as honest and dishonest as Republicans. They are all human beings, and officeholders have little choice but to pander to their voting base. Otherwise, they tend to lose elections.

The issue here is whether Trump intended to go to the Capitol to support the rioters, whom he apparently knew to be armed and dangerous. It is not whether Hutchinson, a loyal Republican and erstwhile Trump supporter, got some details wrong because her memory failed her. She appeared to be trying, as best she could, to recall the events of the day, and it is very possible that she remembered them to be more dramatic than they actually were. We'd need testimony from witnesses who could corroborate her. Even eyewitnesses to crimes tend to misremember things and have false recollections of what happened.

See:

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence​

Making excuses why those agents need not testify only confirms the Trumpster-Reds propaganda and strengthens their likely election victory next November. The entire show being put on by the House is undermined by this. If they do nothing to undo the damage, they prove themselves to be nothing but political propagandists just as dishonest as the other side.

You can never excuse perjury, which is what this is, if there was no physical altercation in that car. If that's a lie, someone prompted her to say that. Who? this is witness tampering, which you cannot excuse. This crime is just as serious as what they're accusing Trump of. It proves the whole thing is a show-trial for sensationalist effect. All Dems' credibility is lost.

Stop making excuses and demand that those agents be brought to testify. Unless you don't care about the truth, but only about promoting the Dems propaganda, no matter how much lying it takes.

 

[Patooka]

You make an excellent point, lumpy. All that evidence you laid out that proves Hutchinson was lying is hard to ignore.

 

[blastula]

When it comes to assessing witness testimony, I think we can ignore the guy who thinks the gospels are enough proof for miracles.

We can also ignore Trumpy Ornato if he were to contradict Hutchinson.

Details of what happened on Jan. 6 : ‘I Alone Can Fix It’ book excerpt - The Washington Post.

Around this time, Kellogg ran into Tony Ornato in the West Wing. Ornato, who oversaw Secret Service movements, told him that Pence’s detail was planning to move the vice president to Joint Base Andrews.

“You can’t do that, Tony,” Kellogg said. “Leave him where he’s at. He’s got a job to do. I know you guys too well. You’ll fly him to Alaska if you have a chance. Don’t do it.”

Pence had made clear to Giebels the level of his determination and Kellogg said there was no changing it.

“He’s going to stay there,” Kellogg told Ornato. “If he has to wait there all night, he’s going to do it.”

Ornato, through a spokesman, denied having this conversation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

CSI strikes again.

 

[zorq]

they prove themselves to be nothing but political propagandists just as dishonest as the other side.

 

[Politesse]

It's OK that she lied and nothing about it should be investigated?

That wouldn't okay at all. But she'd just be one more Trumper lying. His staff lies more frequently than most people breathe, what's that got to do with the Democrats?

 

[Copernicus]

Do Dems lie as much as Trump and Repubs?

House Democrats have a chance now to prove that the Repubs are the worse liars...

That is not at issue here. Personally, I don't know whether Democrats would lie as much if they had a president like Donald Trump, but I'm pretty sure that they would never put themselves in the position by nominating such a flawed, incompetent individual. I think that Democrats are personally just as honest and dishonest as Republicans. They are all human beings, and officeholders have little choice but to pander to their voting base. Otherwise, they tend to lose elections.

The issue here is whether Trump intended to go to the Capitol to support the rioters, whom he apparently knew to be armed and dangerous. It is not whether Hutchinson, a loyal Republican and erstwhile Trump supporter, got some details wrong because her memory failed her. She appeared to be trying, as best she could, to recall the events of the day, and it is very possible that she remembered them to be more dramatic than they actually were. We'd need testimony from witnesses who could corroborate her. Even eyewitnesses to crimes tend to misremember things and have false recollections of what happened.

See:

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence​

Making excuses why those agents need not testify only confirms the Trumpster-Reds propaganda and strengthens their likely election victory next November. The entire show being put on by the House is undermined by this. If they do nothing to undo the damage, they prove themselves to be nothing but political propagandists just as dishonest as the other side.

You can never excuse perjury, which is what this is, if there was no physical altercation in that car. If that's a lie, someone prompted her to say that. Who? this is witness tampering, which you cannot excuse. This crime is just as serious as what they're accusing Trump of. It proves the whole thing is a show-trial for sensationalist effect. All Dems' credibility is lost.

Stop making excuses and demand that those agents be brought to testify. Unless you don't care about the truth, but only about promoting the Dems propaganda, no matter how much lying it takes.

Nobody is making excuses for anyone. We have Cassidy Hutchinson's hours of sworn testimony, making her liable for perjury. To convict her, the government would need to prove that she knowingly lied, although she came off as quite sincere. What happened in the car is irrelevant, since she only testified about what people told her that happened in the car. If they lied, embellished, or misled her for whatever reason, that doesn't make her guilty of perjury. If she sincerely believed what she said but simply didn't remember the facts accurately, that doesn't make her guilty of perjury. She could be a very good actor, and a lot of pro-Trumpers will be inclined to believe that. We still need to hear from Engel, Ornato, and Cipollone. The committee just subpoenaed Cipollone, who is no longer cooperating with the committee. He is an extreme pro-Trump partisan, so it isn't clear whether he will defy the subpoena, claim the fifth, or claim executive privilege. The Secret Service has said that they will let Engel testify. They appear ready to cooperate fully with the committee. I don't know what else you want, but I understand that you might not want Hutchinson to be telling the truth. I doubt she would perjure herself just to get back at Trump because he allegedly wouldn't let her join him in Florida. I don't actually believe that she would seek to work for such a man again, but you never know.

 

[Ford]

Do Dems lie as much as Trump and Repubs?

House Democrats have a chance now to prove that the Repubs are the worse liars...

That is not at issue here. Personally, I don't know whether Democrats would lie as much if they had a president like Donald Trump, but I'm pretty sure that they would never put themselves in the position by nominating such a flawed, incompetent individual. I think that Democrats are personally just as honest and dishonest as Republicans. They are all human beings, and officeholders have little choice but to pander to their voting base. Otherwise, they tend to lose elections.

The issue here is whether Trump intended to go to the Capitol to support the rioters, whom he apparently knew to be armed and dangerous. It is not whether Hutchinson, a loyal Republican and erstwhile Trump supporter, got some details wrong because her memory failed her. She appeared to be trying, as best she could, to recall the events of the day, and it is very possible that she remembered them to be more dramatic than they actually were. We'd need testimony from witnesses who could corroborate her. Even eyewitnesses to crimes tend to misremember things and have false recollections of what happened.

See:

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence​

Making excuses why those agents need not testify only confirms the Trumpster-Reds propaganda and strengthens their likely election victory next November. The entire show being put on by the House is undermined by this. If they do nothing to undo the damage, they prove themselves to be nothing but political propagandists just as dishonest as the other side.

You can never excuse perjury, which is what this is, if there was no physical altercation in that car. If that's a lie, someone prompted her to say that. Who? this is witness tampering, which you cannot excuse. This crime is just as serious as what they're accusing Trump of. It proves the whole thing is a show-trial for sensationalist effect. All Dems' credibility is lost.

Stop making excuses and demand that those agents be brought to testify. Unless you don't care about the truth, but only about promoting the Dems propaganda, no matter how much lying it takes.

So let me see if I've got this straight....

An increasingly long list of former Trump staffers, aides, career officials and appointees up to and including the Attorney General have testified under oath that Trump attempted to overturn a democratic election and install himself as El Presidente For Life, and your hot take is:

"Dammit we've got to do something about these Secret Service agents!"

That's it. That's all you want to hear about, and they are the only credible source of truth in this entire sordid affair. In fact if they don't testify, you feel there simply WAS no sordid affair. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Did you also think Nixon was an innocent man unjustly railroaded because we never heard testimony from his security detail?

But you know what? I actually agree with you on one narrow point. Let's get them up on the Hill as soon as possible and have them testify under oath. Not "an unnamed source indicates that one of the agents in question disputes the account," but a swearing-on-the-bible afternoon 'o testimony from the guy who was driving the President that day. Let's see it. Because right now we've got the sworn testimony of a person who volunteered to give her statements under pain of perjury and (as always) security threats from rabid Trump supporters vs "I heard that some unnamed Secret Service agent said off the record that what she said that other person said isn't true."

Finally, you know who would be great to see on the stand under oath? I'll give you a hint: He's got tiny hands, an anger management problem, and really, really, really hates testifying under oath.

 

[Jarhyn]

So they want to claim both parties suck so it shouldn't matter whether they join the party of "let's make it suck worse" vs the party of "let's make it suck less".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do Dems lie as much as Trump and Repubs?

House Democrats have a chance now to prove that the Repubs are the worse liars...

That is not at issue here. Personally, I don't know whether Democrats would lie as much if they had a president like Donald Trump, but I'm pretty sure that they would never put themselves in the position by nominating such a flawed, incompetent individual. I think that Democrats are personally just as honest and dishonest as Republicans. They are all human beings, and officeholders have little choice but to pander to their voting base. Otherwise, they tend to lose elections.

The issue here is whether Trump intended to go to the Capitol to support the rioters, whom he apparently knew to be armed and dangerous. It is not whether Hutchinson, a loyal Republican and erstwhile Trump supporter, got some details wrong because her memory failed her. She appeared to be trying, as best she could, to recall the events of the day, and it is very possible that she remembered them to be more dramatic than they actually were. We'd need testimony from witnesses who could corroborate her. Even eyewitnesses to crimes tend to misremember things and have false recollections of what happened.

See:

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence​

Making excuses why those agents need not testify only confirms the Trumpster-Reds propaganda and strengthens their likely election victory next November. The entire show being put on by the House is undermined by this. If they do nothing to undo the damage, they prove themselves to be nothing but political propagandists just as dishonest as the other side.

You can never excuse perjury, which is what this is, if there was no physical altercation in that car. If that's a lie, someone prompted her to say that. Who? this is witness tampering, which you cannot excuse. This crime is just as serious as what they're accusing Trump of. It proves the whole thing is a show-trial for sensationalist effect. All Dems' credibility is lost.

Stop making excuses and demand that those agents be brought to testify. Unless you don't care about the truth, but only about promoting the Dems propaganda, no matter how much lying it takes.

Are you arguing not enough Trump appointees and Republicans testified? Because like almost everyone who has testified so far were in the Trump Administration. Many of them approved by the GOP controlled Senate.

 

[Elixir]

I'm confused... when someone says something that offends Dolt45, that makes them a Democrat?
Do I have that right?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

they prove themselves to be nothing but political propagandists just as dishonest as the other side.

View attachment 39275

The complaint is the most dishonest Moore-Coulter to date.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

One wonders. Do secret service agents wear body cameras?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

One wonders. Do secret service agents wear body cameras?

Trump Admin stopped allowing any devices around him due to the embarrassment he was.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Trump lied he did not know Cassidy Hutchinson. Though she had a small office just a few steps down the hall from the oval office. And as assistant to Mark Meadows attended all meetings involving Trump and Meadows. Accompanied both on Air Force One when they travelled. And of course all of this will have been logged officially leaving a long and official paper trail.

Lumpy, Trump lies. So do the shrill chorus of panicky Republicans who realize Ms. Hutchinson has royally screwed Trump.

 

[Ford]

One wonders. Do secret service agents wear body cameras?

I doubt it, but they've probably got some pretty nifty surveillance technology at their disposal.

That aside, in addition to what I said earlier about the committee being methodical (they bring the receipts), they've also done something which may or may not have been intentional. I watched a clip of "Morning Joe" just now talking about Hannity railing against the Hutchinson testimony. Fox was the network that didn't want to air the first day of hearings...so that their viewers would say "committee? Didn't watch it." Now their opinion hosts can't wait to chime in, and bring on guests to talk about the hearings. So now - assuming the committee brought the receipts for the Hutchinson testimony - Fox may have to issue some stern denials/retractions/screaming when the rest of it comes out.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Dems must stop pussyfooting around and issue the subpoenas.

Bottom line: House Dems are feeding the whole Right-wing propaganda machine and handing more votes to Republicans in the Fall elections if they do not take steps to put those 2 SS agents on the stand to give their testimony.

(Or, if that testimony would discredit their witness, that's just the truth coming out, whatever it is. Is that what they're afraid of?)

The Hannitys and others are capitalizing on the refusal of House Dems to get that testimony. Saying that the 2 agents have contradicted the Dems' witness and are willing to testify under oath.

All the excuses for not issuing the subpoenas serve only to feed the Right-wing pundits and strengthen the resolve of pro-Trump Republicans, who don't listen to PBS news but only to Hannity etc. telling them that the witness is contradicted by both of the SS agents in that car. Those are the most credible witnesses, and House Dems are refusing to have them testify.

This failure of the House Dems to do the right thing serves to solidify the Red-Blue Divide separating the country into 2 realities -- the Red Truth vs. the Blue Truth with no objective truth anywhere to believe in. If their case is based on the (objective) truth rather than party ideology/propaganda, they must take the steps to resolve any conflict about the facts. Where their witness is contradicted by someone else who is willing to testify, they are obligated to get that contrary testimony if possible, which so far they are not doing.

The problem is easily solved when House Dems issue those subpoenas. Until they do that they are discredited, proving their interest is not finding the truth but only Party politics.

 

[Hermit]

"The January 6 Witch Hunt Cabal has now exceeded even its prior fraudulent," he said. "The last witness was a reckless liar. Contrary to her false testimony she was never present when I asked for a pardon."

Go home, Rudy. You're drunk.

Are we not above indulging in egregious quote mining?

Here is Giuliani's tweet in full:

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How many more subpoenas to Trump staff are needed? How many more GOP senate approved nominees need to come before the committee?

Your objection is preposterous.