DeSantis signs bill requiring FL students, professors to register political views with state

[laughing dog]

If someone objects to it based on its 'intrusiveness', then surely they ought object to it on the same grounds when universities ask it of their own students and staff.

They are.

If you read closely, "They also proposed asking respondents to state their gender identity, sexual orientation and religion with unusual specificity." In my experience, it is highly unusual for state institutions of higher education to ask questions about the religion of respondents at all, let alone with unusual specificity.

I stand corrected, I didn't read what you said properly; I don't know that American universities ask about a student's religion the way they ask about gender identity and sexual orientation.

American universities as a rule DON'T ask such questions - that is the point. Moreover, despite your handwaving, American universities (as a generalization) do not ask questions about gender ideology or sexual orientation with unusual specificity.

BTW - the phrase "Universities in America" does not normally suggest a mere existence (someone somewhere does it) but that it is more general.

I did mean, as I explained, that it was not unprecedented. And I'm certain that some of the people objecting to the sexual orientation and gender identity questions are people who attend universities that already ask these questions. I am also confident that universities in America (and all over the Anglosphere) do ask these gender identity questions. I am studying a postgraduate diploma right now and I was given a drop-down box of options (including type-in) to describe my 'gender'.

Your confidence is not warranted by the content of your posts.

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor, You insisted that the American left supports police and prison abolition. Not the American "far left." You were talking about "The Left." That is the "the Left" that Toni was talking about too. You are wrong. Thank you for admitting it, if not in so many words. But you are wrong.

The left includes the far left.

It doesn't include 'the right', though, as you and Toni believe.

Just as wrong as I would be if I insisted that "American right wingers want black slavery legalized again."... well, not quite as wrong as that, but it's in the same ballpark.

Yes, I know what the left believes about the right. They tell me, as you have just done.

 

[Metaphor]

If someone objects to it based on its 'intrusiveness', then surely they ought object to it on the same grounds when universities ask it of their own students and staff.

They are.

If you read closely, "They also proposed asking respondents to state their gender identity, sexual orientation and religion with unusual specificity." In my experience, it is highly unusual for state institutions of higher education to ask questions about the religion of respondents at all, let alone with unusual specificity.

I stand corrected, I didn't read what you said properly; I don't know that American universities ask about a student's religion the way they ask about gender identity and sexual orientation.

American universities as a rule DON'T ask such questions - that is the point. Moreover, despite your handwaving, American universities (as a generalization) do not ask questions about gender ideology or sexual orientation with unusual specificity.

How do you know that, or are you relying simply on your personal experience?

 

[Metaphor]

From your post #86

*Of course, some cities completely under Democrat control did, in fact, defund the police, to disastrous results.

YOur post 96:

As far as I am aware, neither AOC nor any if the squad are academics.

I did not claim they were.

And yet you decided to mix AOC in with academia for some reason?

I did not declare that she was an academic, or imply it, as you prove below by quoting me.

Your post:

That doesn't mean American academics don't mention it, and advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party (like AOC and the Squad) don't acknowledge it and juggle appeasing this far left faction with not appearing deeply nuts to their base.

See, where I say 'American academics...advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party' very pointedly separates the academics and the politicians.

You again:

I believe academics span the political spectrum, though I doubt your opinion on what is 'very far right'. But I also believe your statement is misleading: the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia.

I understand that the sentiment is quite popular in right wing rags but in my experience, it's simply false. Within any of the coursework I took at any of 3 different universities, only one, a sociology course, was even minorly political adjacent. No profs expressed any 'left leaning' ideology in any classroom that I was in.

It isn't false. It is supported by surveys of academics. The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia and it has been that way since the 1960s.

One was quite matter of fact about his conservative Christianity and frankly, the only profs I can think of who talked about their political beliefs outside of class were conservatives. Socially, I know a fair number of academics from a number of different disciplines and there is a broad political spectrum represented, even in my state which is more Democrat than Republican.

Are you making the absurd claim that Republicans and Democrats are about equally represented in US academia?

I want to make sure you are making that claim.

How very far right! Do you believe libertarianism is a right wing ideology?

Do you believe that the left is overrepresented in American academia, or, if not over-represented (compared to the American population), a far bigger presence than the right in American academia?

Yes, I think that libertarians are right wing. No, I don't believe that 'the left' is over represented in American academia. Most of my coursework was in sciences and there was zero political leanings in the teachings, nor in any of my other coursework in French, English Lit/Drama, sociology, economics, or psychology.

Zero political leanings in English, in sociology! Okay.

I do not believe you.

I wasn't interested in political science and I never took any courses in the subject. I'm fairly certain political theory is discussed in these classes but I'm also pretty certain that no one is indoctrinating students into any particular political leaning in those classes. I do know that a number of academics I know have mentioned that they were seeing more conservative students compared with days gone by.

I did not say anything about 'indoctrinating'. I said the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia.

I reckon that you are right, though some would include some selected Southern European countries like Italy.

I mentioned Italy. I should have mentioned Greece but Italy is a more common destination for American travelers.

The point, however, is that 'the American left is conservative by world standards' is, to put it unkindly, a bullshit statement. It might not be bullshit if 'the world' meant northern Europe, but it's complete bullshit when the world actually means the world, including where most of the world lives.

Ask citizens in Iran, in Poland, in Libya, in China, in India, in Hungary, if America is 'conservative'.

I gave you my personal reference point: for much of northern and western Europe as well as Italy, the US is definitely not considered leftist. I would include Canada, Mexico and much of South and Central America and a lot of Africa and the Middle East in that assessment.

I am aware of Chinese, Libyan, Indian, Pakistani, and Hungarian political leanings. I mean, we're left of Kim Jong-un, and current India and Pakistani politics.

Right here on this board, by your fellow countrymen, I've been assured that America's left is hardly left at all.

Yes, I know exactly how Australian leftists evaluate the political centre.

I get the point: If one examines the policies and policy proposals by say, Eisenhower or Nixon, we're positively right of center.

No, you don't get the point.

 

[zorq]

Metaphor, You insisted that the American left supports police and prison abolition. Not the American "far left." You were talking about "The Left." That is the "the Left" that Toni was talking about too. You are wrong. Thank you for admitting it, if not in so many words. But you are wrong.

The left includes the far left.

It doesn't include 'the right', though, as you and Toni believe.

Just as wrong as I would be if I insisted that "American right wingers want black slavery legalized again."... well, not quite as wrong as that, but it's in the same ballpark.

Yes, I know what the left believes about the right. They tell me, as you have just done.

My first assessment was correct then, you DELIBERATELY misconstrued Toni's statement. And that is why you don't command much respect around here.

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor, You insisted that the American left supports police and prison abolition. Not the American "far left." You were talking about "The Left." That is the "the Left" that Toni was talking about too. You are wrong. Thank you for admitting it, if not in so many words. But you are wrong.

The left includes the far left.

It doesn't include 'the right', though, as you and Toni believe.

Just as wrong as I would be if I insisted that "American right wingers want black slavery legalized again."... well, not quite as wrong as that, but it's in the same ballpark.

Yes, I know what the left believes about the right. They tell me, as you have just done.

My first assessment was correct then, you DELIBERATELY misconstrued Toni's statement. And that is why you don't command much respect around here.

No, I did not misconstrue Toni's statement, deliberately or otherwise.

Yes, you've already told me I do not command respect 'around here'. There was no ambiguity about what you feel when you said it the first time, and I suggest that you do not need to repeat it every time you respond to me, as some people might consider your doing so an abusive tactic.

 

[Toni]

Metaphor: I did not declare that she was an academic, or imply it, as you prove below by quoting me.

I'm not sure why you decided to bring AOC et al into this discussion, then?

You:

See, where I say 'American academics...advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party' very pointedly separates the academics and the politicians.

Sure. I am honestly not certain when you think university professors are indoctrinating students or even advocating for any political philosophy other than education is good (something the right wing in the US increasingly disagrees with).

I took exactly ONE sociology class and nope, no political indoctrination. Basic sociology discusses basic concepts, terms, etc. Not politics.

In my Shakespearean classes and Greek Drama, we mostly discussed the themes contained in the texts, Politics? Well, I suppose if you want to count discussing the politics in Richard III or Henry IV or Henry V or King Lear or A Midsummer Night's Dream? Ancient politics, or at least as conveyed by Shakespeare, who most historians would pick quite a few bones with. Personally, I loved the language, especially in The Tempest, and parts of King Lear. And who doesn't fall in love with Shakespeare when they read the opening of Macbeth????

Greek Drama? Really? Sadly, my classes were just rudimentary and we never really got into the politics of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to make the winds favor the Greeks or whether his wife was justified in murdering him in revenge. There certainly are scholars and authors who discuss Greek Drama from a feminist perspective and from other political perspectives, but in my classes, it was much more rudimentary than that: most of the class was struggling to keep the names straight and to grasp the ancient notion of the Erinyes or Bacchanals, etc. and how the plays both reflected and formed the ancient Greek world view and society. The plays were morality plays. It was generally thought to be very bad to murder family members or guests.

Those were classes I took for fun and out of interest. Most of my time was spent on cell and molecular biology and biochemistry. Which I enjoyed but it was a different part of the brain, so to speak.

 

[Jarhyn]

There was one class I took in college. I don't even remember the exact requirement it was fulfilling, but I remember the discussions were so exceedingly dim, and there were a few arguments.

I think several of the people in the class really didn't like me or my discussion very much, and I'm pretty sure I was a right shit back then and I still got... a B I think? I got credit towards fulfilling the requirement.

I'm not sure how right or wrong I was at any particular moment in the class. I'd guess about 80% right, 20% wrong.

I remember an argument where I pissed someone off greatly about why cultural appropriation isn't generally a thing?

Being respectful and not claiming status within a culture that you do not have, not speaking stories for others, not repeating awful or hurtful stereotypes, these are totally things.

But celebrating celebrations of other cultures, understanding the beliefs and mythologies of other cultures as the believers and people raised in that culture compose it, eating and making foods made by other cultures, having some ancient cords in a song, wearing particular colors, picking up ways of living from others, and otherwise letting that world in and be useful to yourself is not appropriation.

Wearing certain colors in certain places? It's probably not smart because you don't know enough about being a Roman in that Rome to know how to properly do as Romans do.

I saw a kid from Fargo or some shit get mugged in downtown Minneapolis, stole his shirt and his shoes and his watch. Maybe his hat?

He was in Rome, trying to be like the Romans, and he didn't know shit.

Of course that's no reason to mug a guy. Thing is, he wanted to get into a fight with six people instead of a bus.

They were remarkably gentle with him, probably because they wanted his shit to not get ruined.

I filed a police report, and I'm sure the cops did next to nothing and some fairly spoiled farm kid lost his "bling" and his pride.

God that was such a stupid night.

Don't be culturally stupid is what I'm saying, I guess.

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor: I did not declare that she was an academic, or imply it, as you prove below by quoting me.

I'm not sure why you decided to bring AOC et al into this discussion, then?

Because I was talking about the left. I can't understand how you perceive difficulty in the connection.

You:

See, where I say 'American academics...advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party' very pointedly separates the academics and the politicians.

Sure. I am honestly not certain when you think university professors are indoctrinating students or even advocating for any political philosophy other than education is good (something the right wing in the US increasingly disagrees with).

I am gobsmacked that you once again make the misleading statement that I accused professors of 'indoctrinating' when what I said was the left heavily outweighs the right in American academia. Stop making claims I said something that I did not say.

I took exactly ONE sociology class and nope, no political indoctrination. Basic sociology discusses basic concepts, terms, etc. Not politics.

I took a class in English called 'Text and Gender'. This was in the late 1990s. I feel if you took the class, you'd say 'no, the professor didn't reveal her leanings at all'. But I can assure you, the professor's leftist feminist ideology was extremely obvious.

In my Shakespearean classes and Greek Drama, we mostly discussed the themes contained in the texts, Politics? Well, I suppose if you want to count discussing the politics in Richard III or Henry IV or Henry V or King Lear or A Midsummer Night's Dream? Ancient politics, or at least as conveyed by Shakespeare, who most historians would pick quite a few bones with. Personally, I loved the language, especially in The Tempest, and parts of King Lear. And who doesn't fall in love with Shakespeare when they read the opening of Macbeth????

Greek Drama? Really? Sadly, my classes were just rudimentary and we never really got into the politics of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to make the winds favor the Greeks or whether his wife was justified in murdering him in revenge. There certainly are scholars and authors who discuss Greek Drama from a feminist perspective and from other political perspectives, but in my classes, it was much more rudimentary than that: most of the class was struggling to keep the names straight and to grasp the ancient notion of the Erinyes or Bacchanals, etc. and how the plays both reflected and formed the ancient Greek world view and society. The plays were morality plays. It was generally thought to be very bad to murder family members or guests.

Those were classes I took for fun and out of interest. Most of my time was spent on cell and molecular biology and biochemistry. Which I enjoyed but it was a different part of the brain, so to speak.

Medical schools are now incorporating gender ideology into their lessons.

But there's no leftist leaning in academia, no.

 

[laughing dog]

If someone objects to it based on its 'intrusiveness', then surely they ought object to it on the same grounds when universities ask it of their own students and staff.

They are.

If you read closely, "They also proposed asking respondents to state their gender identity, sexual orientation and religion with unusual specificity." In my experience, it is highly unusual for state institutions of higher education to ask questions about the religion of respondents at all, let alone with unusual specificity.

I stand corrected, I didn't read what you said properly; I don't know that American universities ask about a student's religion the way they ask about gender identity and sexual orientation.

American universities as a rule DON'T ask such questions - that is the point. Moreover, despite your handwaving, American universities (as a generalization) do not ask questions about gender ideology or sexual orientation with unusual specificity.

How do you know that, or are you relying simply on your personal experience?

Extensive personal experience along with the experiences of dozens of colleagues. I know of no one who has been asked anything about their religion or gender ideology or sexual orientation at any state institution, let alone with asked with unusual specificity.

I have noticed that many articles and people assume that whatever happens at some big name university represents what occurs throughout US academia. That assumption is very wrong.

 

[Metaphor]

If someone objects to it based on its 'intrusiveness', then surely they ought object to it on the same grounds when universities ask it of their own students and staff.

They are.

If you read closely, "They also proposed asking respondents to state their gender identity, sexual orientation and religion with unusual specificity." In my experience, it is highly unusual for state institutions of higher education to ask questions about the religion of respondents at all, let alone with unusual specificity.

I stand corrected, I didn't read what you said properly; I don't know that American universities ask about a student's religion the way they ask about gender identity and sexual orientation.

American universities as a rule DON'T ask such questions - that is the point. Moreover, despite your handwaving, American universities (as a generalization) do not ask questions about gender ideology or sexual orientation with unusual specificity.

How do you know that, or are you relying simply on your personal experience?

Extensive personal experience along with the experiences of dozens of colleagues. I know of no one who has been asked anything about their religion or gender ideology or sexual orientation at any state institution, let alone with asked with unusual specificity.

I have noticed that many articles and people assume that whatever happens at some big name university represents what occurs throughout US academia. That assumption is very wrong.

The articles I read are not about 'big name' universities alone. Indeed, I read articles and anecdotes and statistics about the policies of public and private universities, large and small.

 

[laughing dog]

It isn't false. It is supported by surveys of academics. The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia and it has been that way since the 1960s.

You are incorrect. The surveys indicate that a growing majority of professors identify themselves as either liberal or moderate and a declining minority identify as conservative.

You appear to assume as do many that one's political identification must somehow creep in or poison the curriculum and class room. It may, but in my experience, most professors try very hard to teach their subjects as professionally and objectively as possible.

 

[laughing dog]

If someone objects to it based on its 'intrusiveness', then surely they ought object to it on the same grounds when universities ask it of their own students and staff.

They are.

If you read closely, "They also proposed asking respondents to state their gender identity, sexual orientation and religion with unusual specificity." In my experience, it is highly unusual for state institutions of higher education to ask questions about the religion of respondents at all, let alone with unusual specificity.

I stand corrected, I didn't read what you said properly; I don't know that American universities ask about a student's religion the way they ask about gender identity and sexual orientation.

American universities as a rule DON'T ask such questions - that is the point. Moreover, despite your handwaving, American universities (as a generalization) do not ask questions about gender ideology or sexual orientation with unusual specificity.

How do you know that, or are you relying simply on your personal experience?

Extensive personal experience along with the experiences of dozens of colleagues. I know of no one who has been asked anything about their religion or gender ideology or sexual orientation at any state institution, let alone with asked with unusual specificity.

I have noticed that many articles and people assume that whatever happens at some big name university represents what occurs throughout US academia. That assumption is very wrong.

The articles I read are not about 'big name' universities alone. Indeed, I read articles and anecdotes and statistics about the policies of public and private universities, large and small.

Unfortunately, in this particular instance, neither you nor I have no data to support your claims. Our different beliefs are just that - beliefs.

 

[Toni]

Metaphor: I did not declare that she was an academic, or imply it, as you prove below by quoting me.

I'm not sure why you decided to bring AOC et al into this discussion, then?

Because I was talking about the left. I can't understand how you perceive difficulty in the connection.

You:

See, where I say 'American academics...advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party' very pointedly separates the academics and the politicians.

Sure. I am honestly not certain when you think university professors are indoctrinating students or even advocating for any political philosophy other than education is good (something the right wing in the US increasingly disagrees with).

I am gobsmacked that you once again make the misleading statement that I accused professors of 'indoctrinating' when what I said was the left heavily outweighs the right in American academia. Stop making claims I said something that I did not say.

I took exactly ONE sociology class and nope, no political indoctrination. Basic sociology discusses basic concepts, terms, etc. Not politics.

I took a class in English called 'Text and Gender'. This was in the late 1990s. I feel if you took the class, you'd say 'no, the professor didn't reveal her leanings at all'. But I can assure you, the professor's leftist feminist ideology was extremely obvious.

In my Shakespearean classes and Greek Drama, we mostly discussed the themes contained in the texts, Politics? Well, I suppose if you want to count discussing the politics in Richard III or Henry IV or Henry V or King Lear or A Midsummer Night's Dream? Ancient politics, or at least as conveyed by Shakespeare, who most historians would pick quite a few bones with. Personally, I loved the language, especially in The Tempest, and parts of King Lear. And who doesn't fall in love with Shakespeare when they read the opening of Macbeth????

Greek Drama? Really? Sadly, my classes were just rudimentary and we never really got into the politics of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to make the winds favor the Greeks or whether his wife was justified in murdering him in revenge. There certainly are scholars and authors who discuss Greek Drama from a feminist perspective and from other political perspectives, but in my classes, it was much more rudimentary than that: most of the class was struggling to keep the names straight and to grasp the ancient notion of the Erinyes or Bacchanals, etc. and how the plays both reflected and formed the ancient Greek world view and society. The plays were morality plays. It was generally thought to be very bad to murder family members or guests.

Those were classes I took for fun and out of interest. Most of my time was spent on cell and molecular biology and biochemistry. Which I enjoyed but it was a different part of the brain, so to speak.

Medical schools are now incorporating gender ideology into their lessons.

But there's no leftist leaning in academia, no.

If no one is attempting to indoctrinate students, then who the fuck cares what any professor's political leanings might be?

 

[Metaphor]

It isn't false. It is supported by surveys of academics. The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia and it has been that way since the 1960s.

You are incorrect. The surveys indicate that a growing majority of professors identify themselves as either liberal or moderate and a declining minority identify as conservative.

Are Colleges and Universities Too Liberal? What the Research Says About the Political Composition of Campuses and Campus Climate

“Is Academe Awash in Liberal Bias?” This is one of many recent headlines trying to grapple with a question that we’ve been debating for decades: are colleges and universities dominated by liberals? Over the past few years, charges that colleges and universities are “about Radical Left...

www.aei.org

The HERI approach that asks how faculty members self-identify across the political spectrum gives us a better sense of the ideological leanings among the professoriate. It powerfully shows that the number of faculty on the right is far outweighed by those who identify as moderate or on the left. In 1989-1990, when HERI first fielded this survey, 42% of faculty identified as being on the left, 40% were moderate, and another 18% were on the right. This is not a normal curve – it is a clear lean to the left.

Almost three decades later in 2016-2017, HERI found that 60% of the faculty identified as either far left or liberal compared to just 12% being conservative or far right. In 1989, the liberal: conservative ratio of faculty was 2.3. So in less than 30 years the ratio of liberal identifying faculty to conservative faculty had more than doubled to 5.

You appear to assume as do many that one's political identification must somehow creep in or poison the curriculum and class room.

I did not say that, though I see Toni's constant accusations of having said that are now colouring your own perceptions.

I said the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. I did not say political ideology 'must' creep into the classroom, nor did I say professors indoctrinate their students. Stop acting as if I did.

I also said that the academic left does not hide their leaning. I know their leaning because they write articles about their left-leaning (and far left-leaning) viewpoints. Articles in establishment media, not just obscure sociology journals. And when an academic dares to defy the left in even the slightest fashion - like the leftist feminist philosopher who said we should accept transracial identities in the same way we accept transgender ones - they are summarily pilloried by the witchfinders upholding leftist orthodoxy.

It may, but in my experience, most professors try very hard to teach their subjects as professionally and objectively as possible.

I am certain they teach the truth--as they see it.

It is difficult to believe the resistance you are offering to the idea that 'the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia'. It should not be a controversial statement to make. Why the denial of it?

 

[Ford]

Metaphor: I did not declare that she was an academic, or imply it, as you prove below by quoting me.

I'm not sure why you decided to bring AOC et al into this discussion, then?

Because I was talking about the left. I can't understand how you perceive difficulty in the connection.

You:

See, where I say 'American academics...advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party' very pointedly separates the academics and the politicians.

Sure. I am honestly not certain when you think university professors are indoctrinating students or even advocating for any political philosophy other than education is good (something the right wing in the US increasingly disagrees with).

I am gobsmacked that you once again make the misleading statement that I accused professors of 'indoctrinating' when what I said was the left heavily outweighs the right in American academia. Stop making claims I said something that I did not say.

I took exactly ONE sociology class and nope, no political indoctrination. Basic sociology discusses basic concepts, terms, etc. Not politics.

I took a class in English called 'Text and Gender'. This was in the late 1990s. I feel if you took the class, you'd say 'no, the professor didn't reveal her leanings at all'. But I can assure you, the professor's leftist feminist ideology was extremely obvious.

In my Shakespearean classes and Greek Drama, we mostly discussed the themes contained in the texts, Politics? Well, I suppose if you want to count discussing the politics in Richard III or Henry IV or Henry V or King Lear or A Midsummer Night's Dream? Ancient politics, or at least as conveyed by Shakespeare, who most historians would pick quite a few bones with. Personally, I loved the language, especially in The Tempest, and parts of King Lear. And who doesn't fall in love with Shakespeare when they read the opening of Macbeth????

Greek Drama? Really? Sadly, my classes were just rudimentary and we never really got into the politics of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to make the winds favor the Greeks or whether his wife was justified in murdering him in revenge. There certainly are scholars and authors who discuss Greek Drama from a feminist perspective and from other political perspectives, but in my classes, it was much more rudimentary than that: most of the class was struggling to keep the names straight and to grasp the ancient notion of the Erinyes or Bacchanals, etc. and how the plays both reflected and formed the ancient Greek world view and society. The plays were morality plays. It was generally thought to be very bad to murder family members or guests.

Those were classes I took for fun and out of interest. Most of my time was spent on cell and molecular biology and biochemistry. Which I enjoyed but it was a different part of the brain, so to speak.

Medical schools are now incorporating gender ideology into their lessons.

But there's no leftist leaning in academia, no.

If no one is attempting to indoctrinate students, then who the fuck cares what any professor's political leanings might be?

You don't understand. See, Metaphor feels that academia is inherently leftist, and as such feels that something must be done to correct this horrible injustice. You see, Metaphor was exposed to a leftist feminist. State thought police? Well that's a good start! My advisor in the history department - and one of the main reasons I chose history as a second major - was a gay man. Why, he even invited some of us from his class on the later years of the British Empire to a social gathering at his house at the end of the semester.

I haven't kept in touch with the rest of the students, but since professors have such a huge influence on impressionable students, I'm sure most of them turned out gay. My younger sister also had him as a professor, and she went on to study architectural history as a graduate student in Edinburgh for a couple years. Don't you see the problem here? Perhaps if we'd gone to college in Florida under this law rather than the radical leftist enclave of Central Michigan University, we might be sitting together happily watching Ben Shapiro videos and have a ready answer when someone asks "what is a woman?"

It is too late for us. She works for an architectural firm that is majority owned/run by women, and I work for a "woke" San Francisco based tech company that celebrated Pride Month to the hilt and encourages employees to put their preferred gender pronouns on their Slack profile. If only our favorite history professor had somehow been prevented from destroying our lives...

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor: I did not declare that she was an academic, or imply it, as you prove below by quoting me.

I'm not sure why you decided to bring AOC et al into this discussion, then?

Because I was talking about the left. I can't understand how you perceive difficulty in the connection.

You:

See, where I say 'American academics...advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party' very pointedly separates the academics and the politicians.

Sure. I am honestly not certain when you think university professors are indoctrinating students or even advocating for any political philosophy other than education is good (something the right wing in the US increasingly disagrees with).

I am gobsmacked that you once again make the misleading statement that I accused professors of 'indoctrinating' when what I said was the left heavily outweighs the right in American academia. Stop making claims I said something that I did not say.

I took exactly ONE sociology class and nope, no political indoctrination. Basic sociology discusses basic concepts, terms, etc. Not politics.

I took a class in English called 'Text and Gender'. This was in the late 1990s. I feel if you took the class, you'd say 'no, the professor didn't reveal her leanings at all'. But I can assure you, the professor's leftist feminist ideology was extremely obvious.

In my Shakespearean classes and Greek Drama, we mostly discussed the themes contained in the texts, Politics? Well, I suppose if you want to count discussing the politics in Richard III or Henry IV or Henry V or King Lear or A Midsummer Night's Dream? Ancient politics, or at least as conveyed by Shakespeare, who most historians would pick quite a few bones with. Personally, I loved the language, especially in The Tempest, and parts of King Lear. And who doesn't fall in love with Shakespeare when they read the opening of Macbeth????

Greek Drama? Really? Sadly, my classes were just rudimentary and we never really got into the politics of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to make the winds favor the Greeks or whether his wife was justified in murdering him in revenge. There certainly are scholars and authors who discuss Greek Drama from a feminist perspective and from other political perspectives, but in my classes, it was much more rudimentary than that: most of the class was struggling to keep the names straight and to grasp the ancient notion of the Erinyes or Bacchanals, etc. and how the plays both reflected and formed the ancient Greek world view and society. The plays were morality plays. It was generally thought to be very bad to murder family members or guests.

Those were classes I took for fun and out of interest. Most of my time was spent on cell and molecular biology and biochemistry. Which I enjoyed but it was a different part of the brain, so to speak.

Medical schools are now incorporating gender ideology into their lessons.

But there's no leftist leaning in academia, no.

If no one is attempting to indoctrinate students, then who the fuck cares what any professor's political leanings might be?

Oy gevalt.

First, you make claims that I said things I did not say. You haven't apologised for making those false claims more than once, but I can see you've dropped the claims, which I suppose is as close to an apology as I'll ever get from you.

Second, the fact that you resist the notion and claim epistemological privilege and argue with me that the left does not heavily outweigh the right in US academia more than proves my point that some leftists--like yourself--simply have no idea how far left they really are compared to the rest of America and the rest of the world. Leftists like you call the Democratic party 'centre right'. When you think the Democrats are 'centre right' - the party that, at local or state or national level has supported police defunding and slavery reparations - you simply cannot be taken credibly on your political barometer, or your spatial awareness, frankly.

Third, even though I did not make the claim that professors must necessarily indoctrinate their leanings into students, there is no doubt that some do, and that students who do not agree will suffer academically. Further, US academia is more than just professors. It's also administration and students.

But I see you've moved on to stage 2 of the leftist playbook. Stage 1 was denying the obvious is happening (the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia). When that denial becomes untenable, we have arrived at Stage 2: it's happening but it doesn't matter (yes the left outweighs the right in US academia but who cares).

I look forward to Stage 3 and Stage 4.

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor: I did not declare that she was an academic, or imply it, as you prove below by quoting me.

I'm not sure why you decided to bring AOC et al into this discussion, then?

Because I was talking about the left. I can't understand how you perceive difficulty in the connection.

You:

See, where I say 'American academics...advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party' very pointedly separates the academics and the politicians.

Sure. I am honestly not certain when you think university professors are indoctrinating students or even advocating for any political philosophy other than education is good (something the right wing in the US increasingly disagrees with).

I am gobsmacked that you once again make the misleading statement that I accused professors of 'indoctrinating' when what I said was the left heavily outweighs the right in American academia. Stop making claims I said something that I did not say.

I took exactly ONE sociology class and nope, no political indoctrination. Basic sociology discusses basic concepts, terms, etc. Not politics.

I took a class in English called 'Text and Gender'. This was in the late 1990s. I feel if you took the class, you'd say 'no, the professor didn't reveal her leanings at all'. But I can assure you, the professor's leftist feminist ideology was extremely obvious.

In my Shakespearean classes and Greek Drama, we mostly discussed the themes contained in the texts, Politics? Well, I suppose if you want to count discussing the politics in Richard III or Henry IV or Henry V or King Lear or A Midsummer Night's Dream? Ancient politics, or at least as conveyed by Shakespeare, who most historians would pick quite a few bones with. Personally, I loved the language, especially in The Tempest, and parts of King Lear. And who doesn't fall in love with Shakespeare when they read the opening of Macbeth????

Greek Drama? Really? Sadly, my classes were just rudimentary and we never really got into the politics of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to make the winds favor the Greeks or whether his wife was justified in murdering him in revenge. There certainly are scholars and authors who discuss Greek Drama from a feminist perspective and from other political perspectives, but in my classes, it was much more rudimentary than that: most of the class was struggling to keep the names straight and to grasp the ancient notion of the Erinyes or Bacchanals, etc. and how the plays both reflected and formed the ancient Greek world view and society. The plays were morality plays. It was generally thought to be very bad to murder family members or guests.

Those were classes I took for fun and out of interest. Most of my time was spent on cell and molecular biology and biochemistry. Which I enjoyed but it was a different part of the brain, so to speak.

Medical schools are now incorporating gender ideology into their lessons.

But there's no leftist leaning in academia, no.

If no one is attempting to indoctrinate students, then who the fuck cares what any professor's political leanings might be?

You don't understand. See, Metaphor feels that academia is inherently leftist,

No. Multiple lines of evidence point to it being leftist.

Not inherently leftist, though. It wasn't always thus.

and as such feels that something must be done to correct this horrible injustice.

What did I say needed to be done? Please quote me.

<rambling nonsense snipped>

 

[Ford]

Metaphor: I did not declare that she was an academic, or imply it, as you prove below by quoting me.

I'm not sure why you decided to bring AOC et al into this discussion, then?

Because I was talking about the left. I can't understand how you perceive difficulty in the connection.

You:

See, where I say 'American academics...advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party' very pointedly separates the academics and the politicians.

Sure. I am honestly not certain when you think university professors are indoctrinating students or even advocating for any political philosophy other than education is good (something the right wing in the US increasingly disagrees with).

I am gobsmacked that you once again make the misleading statement that I accused professors of 'indoctrinating' when what I said was the left heavily outweighs the right in American academia. Stop making claims I said something that I did not say.

I took exactly ONE sociology class and nope, no political indoctrination. Basic sociology discusses basic concepts, terms, etc. Not politics.

I took a class in English called 'Text and Gender'. This was in the late 1990s. I feel if you took the class, you'd say 'no, the professor didn't reveal her leanings at all'. But I can assure you, the professor's leftist feminist ideology was extremely obvious.

In my Shakespearean classes and Greek Drama, we mostly discussed the themes contained in the texts, Politics? Well, I suppose if you want to count discussing the politics in Richard III or Henry IV or Henry V or King Lear or A Midsummer Night's Dream? Ancient politics, or at least as conveyed by Shakespeare, who most historians would pick quite a few bones with. Personally, I loved the language, especially in The Tempest, and parts of King Lear. And who doesn't fall in love with Shakespeare when they read the opening of Macbeth????

Greek Drama? Really? Sadly, my classes were just rudimentary and we never really got into the politics of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to make the winds favor the Greeks or whether his wife was justified in murdering him in revenge. There certainly are scholars and authors who discuss Greek Drama from a feminist perspective and from other political perspectives, but in my classes, it was much more rudimentary than that: most of the class was struggling to keep the names straight and to grasp the ancient notion of the Erinyes or Bacchanals, etc. and how the plays both reflected and formed the ancient Greek world view and society. The plays were morality plays. It was generally thought to be very bad to murder family members or guests.

Those were classes I took for fun and out of interest. Most of my time was spent on cell and molecular biology and biochemistry. Which I enjoyed but it was a different part of the brain, so to speak.

Medical schools are now incorporating gender ideology into their lessons.

But there's no leftist leaning in academia, no.

If no one is attempting to indoctrinate students, then who the fuck cares what any professor's political leanings might be?

You don't understand. See, Metaphor feels that academia is inherently leftist,

No. Multiple lines of evidence point to it being leftist.

Okay. Lay out all your lines of evidence. More to the point, lay out your evidence that this leftism is being imparted to students, AND that there is a need for a legal structure in place to prevent this clear indoctrination.

I'll wait.

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor: I did not declare that she was an academic, or imply it, as you prove below by quoting me.

I'm not sure why you decided to bring AOC et al into this discussion, then?

Because I was talking about the left. I can't understand how you perceive difficulty in the connection.

You:

See, where I say 'American academics...advocate for it, and the left in the Democrat party' very pointedly separates the academics and the politicians.

Sure. I am honestly not certain when you think university professors are indoctrinating students or even advocating for any political philosophy other than education is good (something the right wing in the US increasingly disagrees with).

I am gobsmacked that you once again make the misleading statement that I accused professors of 'indoctrinating' when what I said was the left heavily outweighs the right in American academia. Stop making claims I said something that I did not say.

I took exactly ONE sociology class and nope, no political indoctrination. Basic sociology discusses basic concepts, terms, etc. Not politics.

I took a class in English called 'Text and Gender'. This was in the late 1990s. I feel if you took the class, you'd say 'no, the professor didn't reveal her leanings at all'. But I can assure you, the professor's leftist feminist ideology was extremely obvious.

In my Shakespearean classes and Greek Drama, we mostly discussed the themes contained in the texts, Politics? Well, I suppose if you want to count discussing the politics in Richard III or Henry IV or Henry V or King Lear or A Midsummer Night's Dream? Ancient politics, or at least as conveyed by Shakespeare, who most historians would pick quite a few bones with. Personally, I loved the language, especially in The Tempest, and parts of King Lear. And who doesn't fall in love with Shakespeare when they read the opening of Macbeth????

Greek Drama? Really? Sadly, my classes were just rudimentary and we never really got into the politics of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to make the winds favor the Greeks or whether his wife was justified in murdering him in revenge. There certainly are scholars and authors who discuss Greek Drama from a feminist perspective and from other political perspectives, but in my classes, it was much more rudimentary than that: most of the class was struggling to keep the names straight and to grasp the ancient notion of the Erinyes or Bacchanals, etc. and how the plays both reflected and formed the ancient Greek world view and society. The plays were morality plays. It was generally thought to be very bad to murder family members or guests.

Those were classes I took for fun and out of interest. Most of my time was spent on cell and molecular biology and biochemistry. Which I enjoyed but it was a different part of the brain, so to speak.

Medical schools are now incorporating gender ideology into their lessons.

But there's no leftist leaning in academia, no.

If no one is attempting to indoctrinate students, then who the fuck cares what any professor's political leanings might be?

You don't understand. See, Metaphor feels that academia is inherently leftist,

No. Multiple lines of evidence point to it being leftist.

Okay. Lay out all your lines of evidence.

I linked to the HERI survey. I spoke about my experience. Read it or don't.

More to the point, lay out your evidence that this leftism is being imparted to students,

Why do I need to supply evidence for a claim I did not make?

I must congratulate Toni for poisoning the well so cleverly. She only needed to repeat her false claims twice and now everybody acts as if I said something I did not say.

AND that there is a need for a legal structure in place to prevent this clear indoctrination.

I'll wait.

One short sleep past, we wake eternally!

I did not make a claim that there needed to be a 'legal structure' to 'prevent indoctrination', but I'll ask you to quote where you think I did make that claim.

I'll wait.