DeSantis signs bill requiring FL students, professors to register political views with state

[laughing dog]

Why would it do that? What does the base want? What do they want to see happen in the schools?

The notion that this is just some sort of kabuki theater for the dumbass portion of the Floridian GOP base is "naive" because it ignores every other retributive action of DeSantis against his perceived ideological enemies and his stated words.

 

[southernhybrid]

The best way to handle this is for everyone, or almost everyone to simply leave all of the questions blank. It's not like it's easy to replace all of the faculty. And students are becoming hard to find these days, from everything I've read lately.

 

[Politesse]

Why would it do that? What does the base want? What do they want to see happen in the schools?

The notion that this is just some sort of kabuki theater for the dumbass portion of the Floridian GOP base is "naive" because it ignores every other retributive action of DeSantis against his perceived ideological enemies and his stated words.

Even if that were the case, it does not make this legislation less dangerous. The governor doesn't have to "mean" a policy for it to have effects.

 

[laughing dog]

Why would it do that? What does the base want? What do they want to see happen in the schools?

The notion that this is just some sort of kabuki theater for the dumbass portion of the Floridian GOP base is "naive" because it ignores every other retributive action of DeSantis against his perceived ideological enemies and his stated words.

Even if that were the case, it does not make this legislation less dangerous. The governor doesn't have to "mean" a policy for it to have effects.

True, but it is pretty clear that Governor Desantis does effects in mind. Governor Desantis would have to be pretty "naive" to think university administrators or trustee or regents would ignore his words and actions into their decision-making.

 

[bilby]

The best way to handle this is for everyone, or almost everyone to simply leave all of the questions blank. It's not like it's easy to replace all of the faculty. And students are becoming hard to find these days, from everything I've read lately.

How would you make that happen? People are generally shit at coordinated action of this kind.

And any campaign to do so would result in the people who most oppose DeSantis identifying themselves through their participation in the boycott, which is what he wants anyway.

The way to subvert this would be for anyone who disagrees with DeSantis to simply lie, and say that they hold hard right-wing fundamentalist Christian views that match his.

The problem being that this idea will be anathema to some people who are averse to lying (even in a noble cause); And that people having a choice between subverting this by boycotting it, subverting it by lying, and subverting it in any of the myriad ways neither of us has yet thought of, will inevitably result in none of the subversion strategies getting sufficient support to be effective. Because people are generally shit at coordinated action of this kind.

And then everyone will point the finger at the people who chose strategies other than the one they themselves preferred, and denounce them for being splitters and traitors and idiots and ruining the concerted opposition.

While DeSantis laughs maniacally in his secret underground lair, and dispatches his minions to round up all his opponents for re-education. Or something similarly evil.

The reason democracy is doomed is that the smarter people become, the less cooperative they get. Dictators don’t need people to concur with their strategies; They just need them to obey. But democracy requires a consensus of smart people that outnumbers the idiots, or the result is idiots setting policy. And smart people won’t rally behind a policy idea that’s better than idiocy, but not as good as their preferred policy option. Because smart people are still people, and people are blithering idiots.

 

[Bomb#20]

Um, in this fantasy scenario of yours, who is doing this harassing and targeting?

The administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities. That's not a stretch at all, I don't see why you think that is. I guess you're arguing that they would feel upward pressure from their faculty...

Poor guess. I'm arguing Judge Judy: "It doesn't make sense, and what doesn't make sense isn't true."

In this fantasy scenario of yours, what are the political leanings of the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities and what are the political leanings of the professors they're harassing and targeting? Rightist and leftist, respectively, since you seem to think the point is "creating an avenue for the culling of leftist professors"? So, first off, what evidence is there that the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities are populated by rightists?

Second, even if we accept the dubious assumption that the administrative bodies are made up of conservatives intent on culling progressives, and to do this they need a list of progressives, then what is their motivation for writing a survey that says answering is optional and the survey is confidential, if they intend to get that list by harassment and threats against the decline-to-answers? To do that would be to drop the facade that the survey is confidential. So why adopt the facade in the first place when all it can accomplish is to make them look like liars?

And in the third place, what is the motivation for all these leftist professors who initially refuse to answer the survey questions to react to the harassment by knuckling under to the invasion of their privacy and complying with the unconstitutional demand and saying "Okay, okay, I'll tell you. I'm a leftist." to an administrative body intent on culling leftist professors? That sounds like a wholly ineffective tactic for keeping their jobs. Consequently, harassing professors to state their views sounds like a wholly ineffective tactic for culling leftist professors. So why would the administrative bodies deliberately choose that tactic?

Your scenario's story doesn't hang together. Maybe the survey is an element of a sinister plan to cull leftists and maybe it isn't; but either way, it evidently is not "requiring FL students, professors to register political views with state".

I already said upthread: it appears to be intended to make DeSantis et al look good to their base.

Why would it do that? What does the base want? What do they want to see happen in the schools?

My guess? Less ideological monoculture, more conservative professors, less cancelation, more administration pushback against bullying by progressive students, less focus on identity politics, yada yada. It seems unlikely that anything the Republicans could do will counteract the cultural forces that made academia evolve in its current direction, but at least they can make a show of piously working on the problem.

 

[Politesse]

In this fantasy scenario of yours, what are the political leanings of the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities and what are the political leanings of the professors they're harassing and targeting? Rightist and leftist, respectively, since you seem to think the point is "creating an avenue for the culling of leftist professors"? So, first off, what evidence is there that the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities are populated by rightists?

I don't think it matters one way or the next. When you define a state policy, it has impacts regardless of the political leanings of the people involved. Governor DeSantis and the legislators who have backed this policy certainly intend to squelch the expression of what they would consider "left wing" ideas, and I see no reason to pretend I'm not sure that is the case, when they themselves are not bothering to hide it. If that's what they are attempting to initiate, something like it is what we will see. Power speaks, especially through a bureaucratic system in which it is always flowing downward.

Second, even if we accept the dubious assumption that the administrative bodies are made up of conservatives intent on culling progressives, and to do this they need a list of progressives, then what is their motivation for writing a survey that says answering is optional and the survey is confidential, if they intend to get that list by harassment and threats against the decline-to-answers? To do that would be to drop the facade that the survey is confidential. So why adopt the facade in the first place when all it can accomplish is to make them look like liars?

I do not think the people who are trying to hijack American higher education at present care at all whether someone thinks they are a liar or not.

 

[laughing dog]

In this fantasy scenario of yours, what are the political leanings of the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities and what are the political leanings of the professors they're harassing and targeting? Rightist and leftist, respectively, since you seem to think the point is "creating an avenue for the culling of leftist professors"? So, first off, what evidence is there that the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities are populated by rightists?

I don't think it matters one way or the next. When you define a state policy, it has impacts regardless of the political leanings of the people involved. Governor DeSantis and the legislators who have backed this policy certainly intend to squelch the expression of what they would consider "left wing" ideas, and I see no reason to pretend I'm not sure that is the case, when they themselves are not bothering to hide it. If that's what they are attempting to initiate, something like it is what we will see. Power speaks, especially through a bureaucratic system in which it is always flowing downward.

Second, even if we accept the dubious assumption that the administrative bodies are made up of conservatives intent on culling progressives, and to do this they need a list of progressives, then what is their motivation for writing a survey that says answering is optional and the survey is confidential, if they intend to get that list by harassment and threats against the decline-to-answers? To do that would be to drop the facade that the survey is confidential. So why adopt the facade in the first place when all it can accomplish is to make them look like liars?

I do not think the people who are trying to hijack American higher education at present care at all whether someone thinks they are a liar or not.

You are responding to someone who refuses to acknowledge the trees, let alone the forest.

 

[Jarhyn]

In this fantasy scenario of yours, what are the political leanings of the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities and what are the political leanings of the professors they're harassing and targeting? Rightist and leftist, respectively, since you seem to think the point is "creating an avenue for the culling of leftist professors"? So, first off, what evidence is there that the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities are populated by rightists?

I don't think it matters one way or the next. When you define a state policy, it has impacts regardless of the political leanings of the people involved. Governor DeSantis and the legislators who have backed this policy certainly intend to squelch the expression of what they would consider "left wing" ideas, and I see no reason to pretend I'm not sure that is the case, when they themselves are not bothering to hide it. If that's what they are attempting to initiate, something like it is what we will see. Power speaks, especially through a bureaucratic system in which it is always flowing downward.

Second, even if we accept the dubious assumption that the administrative bodies are made up of conservatives intent on culling progressives, and to do this they need a list of progressives, then what is their motivation for writing a survey that says answering is optional and the survey is confidential, if they intend to get that list by harassment and threats against the decline-to-answers? To do that would be to drop the facade that the survey is confidential. So why adopt the facade in the first place when all it can accomplish is to make them look like liars?

I do not think the people who are trying to hijack American higher education at present care at all whether someone thinks they are a liar or not.

You are responding to someone who refuses to acknowledge the trees, let alone the forest.

Did you intend to bring it back around to that "going outside to look at the trees" spat, or was that merely accidentally full-circle?

 

[Politesse]

You are responding to someone who refuses to acknowledge the trees, let alone the forest.

Well, I can't just talk with people with whom I already agree on matters of fundamental perspective.

 

[laughing dog]

You are responding to someone who refuses to acknowledge the trees, let alone the forest.

Well, I can't just talk with people with whom I already agree on matters of fundamental perspective.

True, but at some point when one is dealing with the functional equivalent of the three proverbial monkeys, one should expect disappointment.

 

[Patooka]

Second, even if we accept the dubious assumption that the administrative bodies are made up of conservatives intent on culling progressives

I think it's much simpler than that. Conservatives are and always will be at war with education. De Santis is smart enough to know that if voters are better educated, they won't buy into his fascist bullshit. This passive aggressive "I'm just asking questions it's okay to not respond" is the fantasy. De Santis isn't even being subtle about it. I'm very sorry you can't see that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In this fantasy scenario of yours, what are the political leanings of the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities and what are the political leanings of the professors they're harassing and targeting? Rightist and leftist, respectively, since you seem to think the point is "creating an avenue for the culling of leftist professors"? So, first off, what evidence is there that the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities are populated by rightists?

Try again. It's not the university administrations that would be deciding who to cull. That would be coming from the QOP. Especially things like any professor who dares publish research the QOP doesn't like.

Second, even if we accept the dubious assumption that the administrative bodies are made up of conservatives intent on culling progressives, and to do this they need a list of progressives, then what is their motivation for writing a survey that says answering is optional and the survey is confidential, if they intend to get that list by harassment and threats against the decline-to-answers? To do that would be to drop the facade that the survey is confidential. So why adopt the facade in the first place when all it can accomplish is to make them look like liars?

Punish the schools when the surveys are bogus. Make the schools ensure the students give answers.

My guess? Less ideological monoculture, more conservative professors, less cancelation, more administration pushback against bullying by progressive students, less focus on identity politics, yada yada. It seems unlikely that anything the Republicans could do will counteract the cultural forces that made academia evolve in its current direction, but at least they can make a show of piously working on the problem.

So you admit that it's about silencing the left.

While there are some excesses that should be curtailed there's the basic fact that reality has a leftist bias.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Um, in this fantasy scenario of yours, who is doing this harassing and targeting?

The administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities. That's not a stretch at all, I don't see why you think that is. I guess you're arguing that they would feel upward pressure from their faculty...

Poor guess. I'm arguing Judge Judy: "It doesn't make sense, and what doesn't make sense isn't true."

In this fantasy scenario of yours, what are the political leanings of the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities and what are the political leanings of the professors they're harassing and targeting? Rightist and leftist, respectively, since you seem to think the point is "creating an avenue for the culling of leftist professors"? So, first off, what evidence is there that the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities are populated by rightists?

Second, even if we accept the dubious assumption that the administrative bodies are made up of conservatives intent on culling progressives, and to do this they need a list of progressives, then what is their motivation for writing a survey that says answering is optional and the survey is confidential, if they intend to get that list by harassment and threats against the decline-to-answers? To do that would be to drop the facade that the survey is confidential. So why adopt the facade in the first place when all it can accomplish is to make them look like liars?

And in the third place, what is the motivation for all these leftist professors who initially refuse to answer the survey questions to react to the harassment by knuckling under to the invasion of their privacy and complying with the unconstitutional demand and saying "Okay, okay, I'll tell you. I'm a leftist." to an administrative body intent on culling leftist professors? That sounds like a wholly ineffective tactic for keeping their jobs. Consequently, harassing professors to state their views sounds like a wholly ineffective tactic for culling leftist professors. So why would the administrative bodies deliberately choose that tactic?

Your scenario's story doesn't hang together. Maybe the survey is an element of a sinister plan to cull leftists and maybe it isn't; but either way, it evidently is not "requiring FL students, professors to register political views with state".

What the hell is the motivation of a Executive Branch demanding all students and professors at colleges across the state take a partisan piss test?

They don't need to do a survey to say the colleges are partisan. They do the survey to begin meddling in the collegiate system. This should be sending shivers down people's spines... and you are standing here saying "it doesn't seem that bad".

 

[laughing dog]

Um, in this fantasy scenario of yours, who is doing this harassing and targeting?

The administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities. That's not a stretch at all, I don't see why you think that is. I guess you're arguing that they would feel upward pressure from their faculty...

Poor guess. I'm arguing Judge Judy: "It doesn't make sense, and what doesn't make sense isn't true."

In this fantasy scenario of yours, what are the political leanings of the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities and what are the political leanings of the professors they're harassing and targeting? Rightist and leftist, respectively, since you seem to think the point is "creating an avenue for the culling of leftist professors"? So, first off, what evidence is there that the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities are populated by rightists?

Second, even if we accept the dubious assumption that the administrative bodies are made up of conservatives intent on culling progressives, and to do this they need a list of progressives, then what is their motivation for writing a survey that says answering is optional and the survey is confidential, if they intend to get that list by harassment and threats against the decline-to-answers? To do that would be to drop the facade that the survey is confidential. So why adopt the facade in the first place when all it can accomplish is to make them look like liars?

And in the third place, what is the motivation for all these leftist professors who initially refuse to answer the survey questions to react to the harassment by knuckling under to the invasion of their privacy and complying with the unconstitutional demand and saying "Okay, okay, I'll tell you. I'm a leftist." to an administrative body intent on culling leftist professors? That sounds like a wholly ineffective tactic for keeping their jobs. Consequently, harassing professors to state their views sounds like a wholly ineffective tactic for culling leftist professors. So why would the administrative bodies deliberately choose that tactic?

Your scenario's story doesn't hang together. Maybe the survey is an element of a sinister plan to cull leftists and maybe it isn't; but either way, it evidently is not "requiring FL students, professors to register political views with state".

What the hell is the motivation of a Executive Branch demanding all students and professors at colleges across the state take a partisan piss test?

They don't need to do a survey to say the colleges are partisan. They do the survey to begin meddling in the collegiate system. This should be sending shivers down people's spines... and you are standing here saying "it doesn't seem that bad".

You don't get it. Think of those nasty "woke" professors indoctrinating unsuspecting and innocent students with facts and figures and critical thinking, We need to protect those children!!!!!!

Going after those who have an ideology of which you disapprove is no big deal at all. Freedom of speech and thought are only approved views.

 

[Gun Nut]

New law will survey Florida students, professors on political views

Colleges could lose funding if survey of "ideas and perspectives" fails to satisfy state's GOP-run legislature

www.salon.com

Public universities in Florida will be required to survey both faculty and students on their political beliefs and viewpoints, with the institutions at risk of losing their funding if the responses are not satisfactory to the state's Republican-led legislature.

The unprecedented project, which was tucked into a law signed Tuesday by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis, is part of a long-running, nationwide right-wing push to promote "intellectual diversity" on campuses — though worries over a lack of details on the survey's privacy protections, and questions over what the results may ultimately be used for, hover over the venture.

Based on the bill's language, survey responses will not necessarily be anonymous — sparking worries among many professors and other university staff that they may be targeted, held back in their careers or even fired for their beliefs.

According to the bill's sponsor, state Sen. Ray Rodrigues, faculty will not be promoted or fired based on their responses, but, as The Tampa Bay Times reported Tuesday, the bill itself does not back up those claims.

Pet peeve... hysterical "click bait" thread titles. these words do not mean what you think they mean. "survey" and "register" are not the same. Not even interestingly close. Due to the seemingly dishonest nature of what started the discussion, I read no further than "Public universities in Florida will be required to survey both faculty and students..."

 

[Bomb#20]

In this fantasy scenario of yours, what are the political leanings of the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities and what are the political leanings of the professors they're harassing and targeting? Rightist and leftist, respectively, since you seem to think the point is "creating an avenue for the culling of leftist professors"? So, first off, what evidence is there that the administrative bodies of Florida colleges and universities are populated by rightists?

Try again. It's not the university administrations that would be deciding who to cull.

We were discussing Politesse's theory, in which it was the administrators who would supposedly be harassing and targeting professors. If you have a different theory in mind, go back to the beginning of the exchange and defend yours.

That would be coming from the QOP.

So in your theory, how does the "QOP" know which professors leave the "Are you a leftist?" question blank?

Especially things like any professor who dares publish research the QOP doesn't like.

Good example. If the powers that be intend to cull leftist professors, then why in the name of ever-loving Chulthu would they rely on self-reporting and on a Keystone Kops level conspiracy to sneakily undermine the anonymity of a survey conducted by unsympathetic administrators, when all they need to do is read the published research and see who wrote it?

To do that would be to drop the facade that the survey is confidential. So why adopt the facade in the first place when all it can accomplish is to make them look like liars?

Punish the schools when the surveys are bogus. Make the schools ensure the students give answers.

How is that an answer to the question I asked? If they want to ensure the students give answers, the very first step they will take in that direction is to refrain from saying "You don't have to answer."

My guess? Less ideological monoculture, more conservative professors, less cancelation, more administration pushback against bullying by progressive students, less focus on identity politics, yada yada. It seems unlikely that anything the Republicans could do will counteract the cultural forces that made academia evolve in its current direction, but at least they can make a show of piously working on the problem.

So you admit that it's about silencing the left.

Oh for the love of god! That's on a level with claiming if we let Citizens United advertise their stupid movie it will drown out the thousand-times-larger mainstream media. It's on a level with claiming the people who object to schools discriminating against white and Asian students are trying to ensure no black students are admitted. It's on a level with claiming if the emperor makes the bishop pay the Jews damages for having burned down their synagogue he's persecuting the Christian religion. Democrats outnumber Republicans in humanities departments by twelve to one. If against all odds DeSantis succeeds in making that eleven-to-two, your rhetoric will still be ludicrous. "Silencing the left."

While there are some excesses that should be curtailed there's the basic fact that reality has a leftist bias.

No, reality has a liberal bias. Academia hasn't been dominated by liberals for about fifty years. The basic fact is that leftists have a zero-sum-game-thinking bias, and reality is not a zero-sum game.

 

[Bomb#20]

Your scenario's story doesn't hang together. Maybe the survey is an element of a sinister plan to cull leftists and maybe it isn't; but either way, it evidently is not "requiring FL students, professors to register political views with state".

What the hell is the motivation of a Executive Branch demanding all students and professors at colleges across the state take a partisan ... test?

Gee, I don't know, maybe they think the tenure committees are already demanding that candidate professors take partisan tests, and just want to get in on the game?

They don't need to do a survey to say the colleges are partisan. They do the survey to begin meddling in the collegiate system.

"Begin"? The folks that control tax collection always meddle in the systems it supports. I'm shocked, shocked, that Henry VIII is meddling in the affairs of the Holy Mother Church his subjects are required to tithe to.

This should be sending shivers down people's spines... and you are standing here saying "it doesn't seem that bad".

"Bad"? Where did you see a moral judgment? You guys are peddling a crackpot evidence-free conspiracy theory about requiring people to register their views.

 

[laughing dog]

Your scenario's story doesn't hang together. Maybe the survey is an element of a sinister plan to cull leftists and maybe it isn't; but either way, it evidently is not "requiring FL students, professors to register political views with state".

What the hell is the motivation of a Executive Branch demanding all students and professors at colleges across the state take a partisan ... test?

Gee, I don't know, maybe they think the tenure committees are already demanding that candidate professors take partisan tests, and just want to get in on the game?

Where do you get such evidence-free drivel?

They don't need to do a survey to say the colleges are partisan. They do the survey to begin meddling in the collegiate system.

"Begin"? The folks that control tax collection always meddle in the systems it supports. I'm shocked, shocked, that Henry VIII is meddling in the affairs of the Holy Mother Church his subjects are required to tithe to.

How do you come up with dumb analogies? But your tacit admission that this is an attempt to meddle is fascinating.

This should be sending shivers down people's spines... and you are standing here saying "it doesn't seem that bad".

"Bad"? Where did you see a moral judgment? You guys are peddling a crackpot evidence-free conspiracy theory about requiring people to register their views.

And you are peddling evidence-denying Alfred E. Neumanesque "what me worries".

 

[Metaphor]

Desantis was very clear in the statement quoted above. He feels that students simply aren't being exposed to enough conservative content or opinions, and that this law is meant to prevent opinions HE finds offensive.

The law is meant to do no such thing. Nowhere does it 'ban' the expression of a particular viewpoint. In fact, it specifically says universities should not attempt to 'shield' students.

The right wing does not want a diversity of opinions.

Neither does the left. What's your point?