Covid-19 miscellany

[Loren Pechtel]

I am certain that he expects medical personnel to wear masks as required by laws governing medical procedures. I am certain that he expects masks to be worn (by dentist and assistants) when he is having a dental procedure or even a dental exam. I am certain he expects masks to be work by everyone in the surgical area should he have surgery.

You know what pisses me off? That the doctor washes their hands and wears latex gloves before treating me. I particularly object to the latex glove when getting my prostate exam. But what am I gonna do? Thems the rules.

That would surprise me--most places no longer use latex gloves. And the digital prostate exam is no longer considered useful for screening.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I just got my fourth booster vax and a new box of masks and gloves. Die shitting, anti-vaxxers!

Why gloves? The risk of Covid through your hand surface is basically zero and gloves provide no protection against your fingers transferring it elsewhere.

 

[Elixir]

I just got my fourth booster vax and a new box of masks and gloves. Die shitting, anti-vaxxers!

Why gloves? The risk of Covid through your hand surface is basically zero and gloves provide no protection against your fingers transferring it elsewhere.

Right. That’s why I pick up dog poop with a bare hand. Oh, wait - no, I don’t.

Nitrile gloves are great to have just for … life. But as you point out, their greatest impact on COVID is probably psychological.

 

[ZiprHead]

I just got my fourth booster vax and a new box of masks and gloves. Die shitting, anti-vaxxers!

Why gloves? The risk of Covid through your hand surface is basically zero and gloves provide no protection against your fingers transferring it elsewhere.

Right. That’s why I pick up dog poop with a bare hand. Oh, wait - no, I don’t.

Nitrile gloves are great to have just for … life. But as you point out, their greatest impact on COVID is probably psychological.

Yup, I use them when painting, working on the car, etc.

 

[TomC]

I'm extremely comfortable with you being the only person not understanding my point.

I understood your point well enough to know you're wrong.

Refusing to wear a mask isn't at all the same as enforcing your personal choice on anyone else. It's really easy to understand, if that's your goal.
Tom

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I just got my fourth booster vax and a new box of masks and gloves. Die shitting, anti-vaxxers!

Why gloves? The risk of Covid through your hand surface is basically zero and gloves provide no protection against your fingers transferring it elsewhere.

The risk may be small but there is a risk. I am not in the best of health and I am risk averse. I have a fair amount of seeing doctors, and hospital buildings, waiting rooms and doctor's offices are good places to find infectous diseases and not just covid-19.

If you don't mind taking chances, so be it. Just don't be the one who handled the door knob I have to use next.

 

[Metaphor]

Patooka made an inference that did not follow from TSwizzle's stated comments.

Patooka did make an inference that exactly follows the numerous times TSwizzle has said masks are ineffective. And TSwizzle has said that a lot. Do your own research.

So what if he said they were ineffective? So what? TSwizzle said he didn't want authoritarians to force him to wear a mask. It does not follow that he wants to or should prevent others from wearing masks.

I don't want the government to force people to exercise. That doesn't mean I object to people exercising of their own free will.

So, you're arguing that TSwizzle thinks of himself as a special case?

No.

I am certain that he expects medical personnel to wear masks as required by laws governing medical procedures. I am certain that he expects masks to be worn (by dentist and assistants) when he is having a dental procedure or even a dental exam. I am certain he expects masks to be work by everyone in the surgical area should he have surgery.

TSwizzle obviously thinks he should not be forced to wear a mask. I doubt he believes that others should not be so required if it protects him.

I don't know what he thinks, but even if he does think his dentist or surgeon should be forced to wear a mask, that would still not necessarily be a hypocrisy. After all, dentists and doctors wear masks in particular contexts, not as a general rule of being alive in public

Nor does it follow, as Patooka implied, that his principles would require him to demand other people do not wear masks.

You mean particular context such as a pandemic/public health emergency????

Yes, I mean particular contexts.

There are two errors being made by you and Patooka. The first error is an egregious error of reasoning; the second may merely be a mater of opinion.

The egregious error is that 'TSwizzle should insist that doctors don't wear masks during surgery'. This error is egregious because it does not follow from anything TSwizzle said. It's a nonsense non-sequitur.

Dante: I don't want the government to force me to attend Church.
Virgil: I hope you have the courage of your convictions, and you want to ban other people from going to Church if they want to.
Dante: Wat.

Virgil's follow up to Dante is a ridiculous non sequitur, and it's exactly what Patooka did but he can't admit it.

The second error is taking for granted that the justification for forcing people to wear masks is equivalent. Forcing a doctor to wear a mask for surgery is more justifiable than forcing a population to mask, even when an individual is alone outdoors, as happened in the early parts of the pandemic in Australia and may well be happening in other parts of the world still.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I'm extremely comfortable with you being the only person not understanding my point.

I understood your point well enough to know you're wrong.

Refusing to wear a mask isn't at all the same as enforcing your personal choice on anyone else. It's really easy to understand, if that's your goal.
Tom

Refusing to wear a mask makes one a potential plague rat leaving ruin and tragedy in plague rat's wake. That should be easy to understand. Being stupid because you have your head up covid-19 deniers like Fuckhead Carlson's ass is not an acceptable lifestyle choice.

 

[Metaphor]

Patooka made an inference that did not follow from TSwizzle's stated comments.

Patooka did make an inference that exactly follows the numerous times TSwizzle has said masks are ineffective. And TSwizzle has said that a lot. Do your own research.

So what if he said they were ineffective? So what? TSwizzle said he didn't want authoritarians to force him to wear a mask. It does not follow that he wants to or should prevent others from wearing masks.

I don't want the government to force people to exercise. That doesn't mean I object to people exercising of their own free will.

I'm extremely comfortable with you being the only person not understanding my point.

Patooka, ask somebody on the philosophy forum if your reasoning was sound.

 

[TomC]

Refusing to wear a mask makes one a potential plague rat leaving ruin and tragedy in plague rat's wake. That should be easy to understand. Being stupid because you have your head up covid-19 deniers like Fuckhead Carlson's ass is not an acceptable lifestyle choice.

Which was not the point I was referring to.

That was the point that if @TSwizzle refused to wear a mask he was a hypocrite if he didn't force that on other people like his dentist. He didn't advocate forcing it on anyone.
Tom

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Refusing to wear a mask makes one a potential plague rat leaving ruin and tragedy in plague rat's wake. That should be easy to understand. Being stupid because you have your head up covid-19 deniers like Fuckhead Carlson's ass is not an acceptable lifestyle choice.

Which was not the point I was referring to.

That was the point that if @TSwizzle refused to wear a mask he was a hypocrite if he didn't force that on other people like his dentist. He didn't advocate forcing it on anyone.
Tom

The point I was making is refusal to wear masks or get vaxxed makes one a far more likely target to get covi-19. And pass it on causing death, tragedy and suffering. He may say, "I am not forcing others to stop wearing masks!" But that is not the point. Other unwiling victims of that sort of willful stupidity is the point. Willfully raising your probability of being a plague rat, and ignoring the consequences of that is not acceptable no matter the lame excuse.

 

[TomC]

He may say, "I am not forcing others to stop wearing masks!" But that is not the point.

OK
You changed the subject to something you wish to rant about.

Got it.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Patooka made an inference that did not follow from TSwizzle's stated comments.

Patooka did make an inference that exactly follows the numerous times TSwizzle has said masks are ineffective. And TSwizzle has said that a lot. Do your own research.

So what if he said they were ineffective? So what? TSwizzle said he didn't want authoritarians to force him to wear a mask. It does not follow that he wants to or should prevent others from wearing masks.

I don't want the government to force people to exercise. That doesn't mean I object to people exercising of their own free will.

So, you're arguing that TSwizzle thinks of himself as a special case?

No.

I am certain that he expects medical personnel to wear masks as required by laws governing medical procedures. I am certain that he expects masks to be worn (by dentist and assistants) when he is having a dental procedure or even a dental exam. I am certain he expects masks to be work by everyone in the surgical area should he have surgery.

TSwizzle obviously thinks he should not be forced to wear a mask. I doubt he believes that others should not be so required if it protects him.

I don't know what he thinks, but even if he does think his dentist or surgeon should be forced to wear a mask, that would still not necessarily be a hypocrisy. After all, dentists and doctors wear masks in particular contexts, not as a general rule of being alive in public

Nor does it follow, as Patooka implied, that his principles would require him to demand other people do not wear masks.

You mean particular context such as a pandemic/public health emergency????

Yes, I mean particular contexts.

There are two errors being made by you and Patooka. The first error is an egregious error of reasoning; the second may merely be a mater of opinion.

The egregious error is that 'TSwizzle should insist that doctors don't wear masks during surgery'. This error is egregious because it does not follow from anything TSwizzle said. It's a nonsense non-sequitur.

Dante: I don't want the government to force me to attend Church.
Virgil: I hope you have the courage of your convictions, and you want to ban other people from going to Church if they want to.
Dante: Wat.

Virgil's follow up to Dante is a ridiculous non sequitur, and it's exactly what Patooka did but he can't admit it.

The second error is taking for granted that the justification for forcing people to wear masks is equivalent. Forcing a doctor to wear a mask for surgery is more justifiable than forcing a population to mask, even when an individual is alone outdoors, as happened in the early parts of the pandemic in Australia and may well be happening in other parts of the world still.

That's a gross mischaracterization of Tswizzle's stated opinion. He has clearly and numerously stated that masks don't work without qualification. That you are ignoring those numerous statements by Swizzle is why you are wrong on this. Strange coming from someone as pedantic as you.

 

[Toni]

Mask mandates don't work;

New data shows Covid cases in Singapore and New Zealand have overtaken Australia in the latest Omicron wave despite ultra-strict mask mandates. Masks are worn everywhere in the densely-populated Asian city while New Zealanders are forced to wear them in all indoor public places, such as shopping centres and libraries. But both now have higher case numbers per million than Australia, where compulsory mask rules have been abandoned in most indoor settings. These figures appear to smash the push now on in Australia for a return to mask mandates, which are currently compulsory only on public transport and in aged care and healthcare centres.

Daily Mail


Forgot say, I was getting gas at Costco yesterday ($5.40 a gallon, thanks Brandon!!) and a guy pulled up to the pump, put a mask on, got out his car, got gas, got in his car and took his mask off. He actually put a mask on outdoors!! I'm like "where the cameras at? This fool can't be serious."

Blame your local station. Gas is just over $4/gal now, and I haven't looked at the prices today. They've dropped a few times over the last week where I live.

Dropped twice yesterday; now under $4/gal

 

[Toni]

I am certain that he expects medical personnel to wear masks as required by laws governing medical procedures. I am certain that he expects masks to be worn (by dentist and assistants) when he is having a dental procedure or even a dental exam. I am certain he expects masks to be work by everyone in the surgical area should he have surgery.

You know what pisses me off? That the doctor washes their hands and wears latex gloves before treating me. I particularly object to the latex glove when getting my prostate exam. But what am I gonna do? Thems the rules.

That would surprise me--most places no longer use latex gloves. And the digital prostate exam is no longer considered useful for screening.

Right, it's almost universally nitrile gloves. As for DRE, that was how my husband's prostate cancer was first noticed. Not specifically identified as cancer of course, but an abnormality that merited another exam by a urologist and then a biopsy. PSAs are not particularly reliable for a variety of reasons, one being that men are are not necessarily instructed to avoid ejaculation or heavy exercise for 48 hrs. before the blood draw (either can artificially elevate PSA levels).

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

He may say, "I am not forcing others to stop wearing masks!" But that is not the point.

OK
You changed the subject to something you wish to rant about.

Got it.
Tom

No. I simply pointed out that there could be bad consequences to his wilfull ignorance. Which he obviously refuses to consider.

 

[Toni]

This shows that the science the lockdown authoritarians were following was entirely made up;

A study of nearly 30,000 people has found asymptomatic carriers are about 68 per cent less likely to pass the virus on than those who get sick.

No10 used concerns about asymptomatic spread to justify forcing Britons to obey lockdowns and wear masks.

They were thought to account for up to a third of all infections and many scientists claimed asymptomatic patients were just as infectious as the sick. But a new global study spanning 42 countries, including the UK and US, found they were only responsible for as little as 14 per cent of cases.

Daily Mail

Oh, well, the Daily Mail. Not the best source for medical information. Also totally neglects to mention that the newest variants are much more highly contagious than the original highly contagious version of COVID19. This would explain, at least in part, why previously effective measures are not as effective in NZ and other places with strict mandates.

68% less likely is not nearly the same thing as 100% less likely or not at all likely. Asymptomatic spread is real, even if degree of illness is to some extent dependent upon viral load and even if likelihood of infecting others is dependent upon viral load.

Being symptom free does not mean you are unable to spread COVID19.

 

[Toni]

Why would letting someone else wear a mask mean TSwizzle wasn't 'sticking to his principles'?

Do a search, and count the amount of time TSwizzle has said masks are ineffective.

That does not answer my question.

Saying "I refuse to wear a mask because they are ineffective" does not conflict with allowing other people to wear or not wear masks as they please.

Indeed, if TSwizzle did as you asked, it would be hypocrisy. It would be an authoritarian demand to impose his preferences on others.

You’re missing the point: I would expect TSwizzle or any person who is even moderately competent to be quite upset if their dentist and/or dental hygienist started to perform work on them without wearing a mask. It would be unsafe for both patient and health care workers. It is unlikely that TSwizzle would suggest much less insist or even accept that dental procedures be performed under such conditions.

No. You are missing the point. Patooka made an inference that did not follow from TSwizzle's stated comments. He was using bad reasoning solely in order to attack TSwizzle.

No, he was arguing against TSwizzle's anti-masking posts.

Only an absolute idiot would want any dental hygienist or dentist to perform an exam or procedures unless they were properly masked and gloved. I don't often agree with TSwizzle but I don't think he's an idiot and I DO think that he'd balk at being examined by dental care providers who are not masked. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe TSwizzle is indifferent to the health risks he would assume and even more indifferent to the health risks his dental care providers would assume if they worked without masks and gloves.

 

[Metaphor]

Why would letting someone else wear a mask mean TSwizzle wasn't 'sticking to his principles'?

Do a search, and count the amount of time TSwizzle has said masks are ineffective.

That does not answer my question.

Saying "I refuse to wear a mask because they are ineffective" does not conflict with allowing other people to wear or not wear masks as they please.

Indeed, if TSwizzle did as you asked, it would be hypocrisy. It would be an authoritarian demand to impose his preferences on others.

You’re missing the point: I would expect TSwizzle or any person who is even moderately competent to be quite upset if their dentist and/or dental hygienist started to perform work on them without wearing a mask. It would be unsafe for both patient and health care workers. It is unlikely that TSwizzle would suggest much less insist or even accept that dental procedures be performed under such conditions.

No. You are missing the point. Patooka made an inference that did not follow from TSwizzle's stated comments. He was using bad reasoning solely in order to attack TSwizzle.

No, he was arguing against TSwizzle's anti-masking posts.

Only an absolute idiot would want any dental hygienist or dentist to perform an exam or procedures unless they were properly masked and gloved. I don't often agree with TSwizzle but I don't think he's an idiot and I DO think that he'd balk at being examined by dental care providers who are not masked.

Completely and totally irrelevant. TSwizzle may or may not think forced masking in dental situations is warranted. That is logically separate from forced masking for the general public in the COVID context. They're different contexts.

So, there is nothing inconsistent with TSwizzle saying "I want my dentist to be masked when he works on me" and "I detest the authoritarian mask prescriptions they are putting on the general public."

Much the less did Patooka's claim - that for TSwizzle to be 'consistent', he must insist on an authoritarian removal of masks from others who are wearing them - have any merit at all.

I'm sorry you and Patooka don't understand your faulty reasoning.

 

[Metaphor]

Patooka made an inference that did not follow from TSwizzle's stated comments.

Patooka did make an inference that exactly follows the numerous times TSwizzle has said masks are ineffective. And TSwizzle has said that a lot. Do your own research.

So what if he said they were ineffective? So what? TSwizzle said he didn't want authoritarians to force him to wear a mask. It does not follow that he wants to or should prevent others from wearing masks.

I don't want the government to force people to exercise. That doesn't mean I object to people exercising of their own free will.

So, you're arguing that TSwizzle thinks of himself as a special case?

No.

I am certain that he expects medical personnel to wear masks as required by laws governing medical procedures. I am certain that he expects masks to be worn (by dentist and assistants) when he is having a dental procedure or even a dental exam. I am certain he expects masks to be work by everyone in the surgical area should he have surgery.

TSwizzle obviously thinks he should not be forced to wear a mask. I doubt he believes that others should not be so required if it protects him.

I don't know what he thinks, but even if he does think his dentist or surgeon should be forced to wear a mask, that would still not necessarily be a hypocrisy. After all, dentists and doctors wear masks in particular contexts, not as a general rule of being alive in public

Nor does it follow, as Patooka implied, that his principles would require him to demand other people do not wear masks.

You mean particular context such as a pandemic/public health emergency????

Yes, I mean particular contexts.

There are two errors being made by you and Patooka. The first error is an egregious error of reasoning; the second may merely be a mater of opinion.

The egregious error is that 'TSwizzle should insist that doctors don't wear masks during surgery'. This error is egregious because it does not follow from anything TSwizzle said. It's a nonsense non-sequitur.

Dante: I don't want the government to force me to attend Church.
Virgil: I hope you have the courage of your convictions, and you want to ban other people from going to Church if they want to.
Dante: Wat.

Virgil's follow up to Dante is a ridiculous non sequitur, and it's exactly what Patooka did but he can't admit it.

The second error is taking for granted that the justification for forcing people to wear masks is equivalent. Forcing a doctor to wear a mask for surgery is more justifiable than forcing a population to mask, even when an individual is alone outdoors, as happened in the early parts of the pandemic in Australia and may well be happening in other parts of the world still.

That's a gross mischaracterization of Tswizzle's stated opinion. He has clearly and numerously stated that masks don't work without qualification. That you are ignoring those numerous statements by Swizzle is why you are wrong on this. Strange coming from someone as pedantic as you.

Totally irrelevant. Even if TSwizzle uttered the words 'masks don't work--for any situation at all, for COVID-19 reduction, for stopping bad breath, for germ transference in surgery', it would STILL not require him to insist others remove masks from their own faces.