European nations recognizing Palestine?

[lpetrich]

That Arab state in Israel-occupied territory.  International recognition of the State of Palestine, Map: The countries that recognize Palestine as a state - The Washington Post

Most of the countries that have recognized Palestine are relatively poor ones: all except the US, Canada, western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and South Korea. There are some exceptions among the relatively poor ones, exceptions like Mexico, Colombia, Cameroon, and Myanmar.

But that is starting to change. Three years ago, Iceland became the first western European nation to recognize Palestine, and last October 30, Sweden became the second.

Sweden's Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom said her government's decision was aimed at supporting the Palestinian Authority and its beleaguered President Mahmoud Abbas, particularly given the present tensions in Jerusalem. "It is important to support those who believe in negotiations and not violence," she told Al Jazeera. "This will give hope to young Palestinians and Israelis that there is an alternative to violence."

The parliaments of France, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, and the United Kingdom have passed non-binding resolutions calling on their governments to recognize Palestine.

Palestine recognised as a state 'in principle' by European Parliament in symbolic vote - Middle East - World - The Independent
Its resolution:

[We] support in principle recognition of Palestinian statehood and the two-state solution, and believes these should go hand in hand with the development of peace talks, which should be advanced.

Center-left and left-wing parties wanted Palestine recognized without conditions, while others wanted Palestine recognized only as part of a peace agreement with Israel. Thus, the compromise wording of that resolution.

This is happening because Israel-Palestine negotiations continue to be stalled, with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and his government being very stubborn. Some prominent officials in it refuse to consider the possibility of accepting a two-state solution.

But if peace talks continue to drag on, other European nations and the EU itself may become impatient and start to recognize Palestine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But if peace talks continue to drag on, other European nations and the EU itself may become impatient and start to recognize Palestine.

The peace talks drag on because they don't really exist. It's just a negotiating ploy to get countries to support them.

 

[dystopian]

There's been talk of recognizing Palestine here in the Netherlands too, supporting the line of the European Parliament that we could recognize Palestine during a strategic moment when doing so might help advance the talks (as opposed to doing so only after everything's been settled by Israel and Palestine).

From what I've heard, Belgium is going to officially recognize Palestine, becoming the 2nd European country to do so (after Sweden).

 

[lpetrich]

There's been talk of recognizing Palestine here in the Netherlands too, supporting the line of the European Parliament that we could recognize Palestine during a strategic moment when doing so might help advance the talks (as opposed to doing so only after everything's been settled by Israel and Palestine).

But with Prime Minister Netanyahu's attitude, they might end up waiting until the Greek Kalends ( List of idioms of improbability).

From what I've heard, Belgium is going to officially recognize Palestine, becoming the 2nd European country to do so (after Sweden).

That'll be interesting to see. But I can't help but think that PM Netanyahu is not taking it very well.

 

[dystopian]

But with Prime Minister Netanyahu's attitude, they might end up waiting until the Greek Kalends ( List of idioms of improbability).

I don't think European recognition of Palestine is contingent at all upon Israel's attitude anymore. The stated position of the European parliament and many EU countries seems to be a pretty clear message to Israel: "We're sick of this shit; we're giving you one last chance to sort it out on your terms or we'll do it on ours."

Israel's continuing treatment of Palestine has been made possible in large part because the West has been shielding it from sanctions. So if the biggest chunk of the West starts talking about recognizing Palestine, then that in itself is a pretty strong message.

That'll be interesting to see. But I can't help but think that PM Netanyahu is not taking it very well.

It's particularly interesting because Belgium represents the 4th biggest export and 5th biggest import partner of Israel; a fact which I didn't know until just 2 seconds ago. So Belgium recognizing Palestine seems a much bigger deal than Sweden doing so. Of course, the US recognizing Palestine would be the best incentive, but if enough of the EU recognizes Israel it could lead to that down the line.

 

[Davka]

Recognition is an important symbolic step, but it's not enough. The West needs to recognize the apartheid nature of Israeli society, and to begin an apartheid-style program of disenfranchisement. The Israeli Right has been dictating policy since the assassination of Rabin, and the left has become apathetic and disillusioned. Political pressure on Israel will not force the needed change in attitude, only a good swift kick in the pocketbook will separate the secular right from the religious right and force true compromise.

 

[untermensche]

The tide is turning.

The world is sick of the brutality and lies of the Israeli government.

A disgust with Israeli aggression and provocation drives this as much as any sympathy for Palestinians.

 

[ZiprHead]

I've never understood this "not recognizing" thing. It's not like it's a fictional nation.

 

[Davka]

I've never understood this "not recognizing" thing. It's not like it's a fictional nation.

Well, since there has never been a nation of Palestine, and the current would-be nation has no recognized borders, no recognized leadership or government, no embassies or consulates, no currency, and no civil infrastructure (to name just a few), it's not like it's a real nation either. It's a group of people who have the dream of a nation, but no power with which to implement that dream.

 

[ZiprHead]

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html

Maps tell the story.

 

[crispy]

I've never understood this "not recognizing" thing. It's not like it's a fictional nation.

Well, since there has never been a nation of Palestine, and the current would-be nation has no recognized borders, no recognized leadership or government, no embassies or consulates, no currency, and no civil infrastructure (to name just a few), it's not like it's a real nation either. It's a group of people who have the dream of a nation, but no power with which to implement that dream.

Does Israel have recognized borders? Where exactly are they?

 

[Davka]

Well, since there has never been a nation of Palestine, and the current would-be nation has no recognized borders, no recognized leadership or government, no embassies or consulates, no currency, and no civil infrastructure (to name just a few), it's not like it's a real nation either. It's a group of people who have the dream of a nation, but no power with which to implement that dream.

Does Israel have recognized borders? Where exactly are they?

Depends on who you ask. Internationally, the recognized borders are equal to the cease-fire line after the 1967 war, with the exception of the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel gave back to Egypt. The Israeli government annexed the Golan Heights, which used to belong to Syria. The Golan is now de-facto part of Israel, although only a handful of nations recognize it as Israeli territory. Israel also claims more land around the city of Jerusalem than that which is internationally recognized.

 

[fromderinside]

Bully for them. Now should we include them with Russia as bullies?

 

[crispy]

Does Israel have recognized borders? Where exactly are they?

Depends on who you ask. Internationally, the recognized borders are equal to the cease-fire line after the 1967 war, with the exception of the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel gave back to Egypt. The Israeli government annexed the Golan Heights, which used to belong to Syria. The Golan is now de-facto part of Israel, although only a handful of nations recognize it as Israeli territory. Israel also claims more land around the city of Jerusalem than that which is internationally recognized.

Of course. Its just that I think its a pretty weak argument that since Palestine does not have any recognized borders it should not be considered a state. It should be pretty easy to make draw the borders if you ask me. Theres Jordan, Egypt and Israel in the area, the rest should be Palestine right? We know how Jordan and Egypts borders are right, and presumably also Israels, so we could call the rest Palestine right? How hard can it be? But it seems to me that Israel has a pretty hard time drawing a line in the sand as to where exactly their land ends.

So the real question is, where does Israel see its borders?

 

[fromderinside]

Depends on who you ask. Internationally, the recognized borders are equal to the cease-fire line after the 1967 war, with the exception of the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel gave back to Egypt. The Israeli government annexed the Golan Heights, which used to belong to Syria. The Golan is now de-facto part of Israel, although only a handful of nations recognize it as Israeli territory. Israel also claims more land around the city of Jerusalem than that which is internationally recognized.

Of course. Its just that I think its a pretty weak argument that since Palestine does not have any recognized borders it should not be considered a state. It should be pretty easy to make draw the borders if you ask me. Theres Jordan, Egypt and Israel in the area, the rest should be Palestine right? We know how Jordan and Egypts borders are right, and presumably also Israels, so we could call the rest Palestine right? How hard can it be? But it seems to me that Israel has a pretty hard time drawing a line in the sand as to where exactly their land ends.

So the real question is, where does Israel see its borders?

Blurry borders by the lesser population is conducive to fostering the lessor population's extinction. Just a matter of time before Israeli arrogance severs our link with them in favor of those now wishing more say.

 

[Davka]

Depends on who you ask. Internationally, the recognized borders are equal to the cease-fire line after the 1967 war, with the exception of the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel gave back to Egypt. The Israeli government annexed the Golan Heights, which used to belong to Syria. The Golan is now de-facto part of Israel, although only a handful of nations recognize it as Israeli territory. Israel also claims more land around the city of Jerusalem than that which is internationally recognized.

Of course. Its just that I think its a pretty weak argument that since Palestine does not have any recognized borders it should not be considered a state. It should be pretty easy to make draw the borders if you ask me. Theres Jordan, Egypt and Israel in the area, the rest should be Palestine right? We know how Jordan and Egypts borders are right, and presumably also Israels, so we could call the rest Palestine right? How hard can it be? But it seems to me that Israel has a pretty hard time drawing a line in the sand as to where exactly their land ends.

So the real question is, where does Israel see its borders?

Israel does not exist as a cohesive entity with a single opinion or worldview, any more than America is a cohesive entity with a single opinion or worldview. Where does America see its national interest? Some Israelis see a State of Palestine as existing on the other side of the Green Line, while others see Israel as encompassing all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, with no such thing as Palestine.

If you're going to say that Palestine is a state, then you're going to have to redefine the word "state." Most people think of a state as having certain attributes, few (or none) of which are possessed by any entity known as "Palestine." If Palestine is a state, then so is Kurdistan.

I'm not saying that Palestine should not become a state - I believe that it should, and have thought that for decades now. I also believe that Kurdistan should become a state. But it's silly and counterproductive to claim that Palestine is currently a full-fledged state which is simply "unrecognized" as such.

Even recognizing the right of Palestinians to create a full-fledged state in the West Bank and Gaza won't magically make it into a state. That's going to take a lot of hard work and more than a little bit of luck.

 

[lpetrich]

I don't think European recognition of Palestine is contingent at all upon Israel's attitude anymore. The stated position of the European parliament and many EU countries seems to be a pretty clear message to Israel: "We're sick of this shit; we're giving you one last chance to sort it out on your terms or we'll do it on ours."

Good idea.

Ben Netanyahu is in a good position politically to make a deal, because of his impeccable hard-line credentials. Something like President Nixon and Communist China. Richard Nixon had earlier distinguished himself as a hard-line cold warrior. He once mocked onetime Secretary of State Dean Acheson's "cowardly Communist containment" as if fighting World War III was a better idea, and he ran against Helen Gahagan Douglas by calling her the Pink Lady, insinuating that she was sympathetic to Communism. During his Presidency, he kept the Vietnam War going, and he eventually expanded it into Cambodia with his secret bombings of that nation. But in 1972, he went to Communist China, then ruled by Mao Zedong, and he improved relations with that nation.

Likewise, BN's predecessor Menachem Begin had been involved in the Irgun, a Zionist terrorist militia, in the last years of the British occupation of Palestine. But in the late 1970's, he made a deal with Egypt to return the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for peace.

So if BN doesn't deliver...

That'll be interesting to see. But I can't help but think that PM Netanyahu is not taking it very well.

It's particularly interesting because Belgium represents the 4th biggest export and 5th biggest import partner of Israel; a fact which I didn't know until just 2 seconds ago. So Belgium recognizing Palestine seems a much bigger deal than Sweden doing so. Of course, the US recognizing Palestine would be the best incentive, but if enough of the EU recognizes Israel Palestine it could lead to that down the line.

Typo, I think.

If enough European nations decide to recognize Palestine, then the EU will likely go along, I think. Of the non-European industrialized nations, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand would likely follow the UK, but I don't expect much interest in this issue from Japan or South Korea. So the US will likely end up with *very* few friends in this issue.

Golda Meir - Wikiquote the fourth Prime Minister of Israel.

There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist.

As quoted in Sunday Times (15 June 1969), also in The Washington Post (16 June 1969)

However, a Palestinian identity emerged in response to the Zionist settlers and the State of Israel.

 

[Togo]

Well, since there has never been a nation of Palestine, and the current would-be nation has no recognized borders,

All Palestine's neighbours recognise its borders except Isreal, and Isreal's border is already agreed on by the international community. I'm not seeing this as a genuine problem. Everyone knows where Palestine would be.

no recognized leadership or government,

They have a president, who is not universally supported, and poltiical parties with cabinets that each operate in particular areas. It's a perfectly reasonable and working form of government, considering that they aren't allowed to travel within their own borders.

no embassies or consulates,

Not official ones, since that could only come with official recognition.

no currency,

Several countries don't have their own currency. It's a pain, but it's not a requirement.

and no civil infrastructure (to name just a few),

They do have civil infrastructure, including a civil service.

it's not like it's a real nation either. It's a group of people who have the dream of a nation, but no power with which to implement that dream.

No, it's a lot more than that. These are people who have been running the area for decades. Noone else has been doing it for them. Rubbish gets collected, schools and hospitals get built, they have policemen, judges in circuit, teachers, doctors, civil engineers, and so on.

 

[Davka]

All Palestine's neighbours recognise its borders except Isreal, and Isreal's border is already agreed on by the international community. I'm not seeing this as a genuine problem. Everyone knows where Palestine would be.

Everyone knows approximately where a Palestinian state would be. NOBODY recognizes "the borders of Palestine." They can't. There are no recognized borders, period. All of the Muslim nations in the Middle east recognize a potential Palestinian state, but the borders of that state vary depending on who you talk to. Some recognize the entire area which is currently known as Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank as "Palestine." Others recognize only the West Bank (which has a border that has been disputed since 19670 and Gaza.

no recognized leadership or government,

They have a president, who is not universally supported, and poltiical parties with cabinets that each operate in particular areas. It's a perfectly reasonable and working form of government, considering that they aren't allowed to travel within their own borders.

It's neither reasonable nor working. Up until the most recent spate of Israeli bombings, Gaza and the West Bank were separately governed. Today there is no government at all in Gaza, nobody is in charge. And the Palestinian Authority is unable to truly lead the West Bank, although I give them credit for trying under such absurd circumstances.

no embassies or consulates,

Not official ones, since that could only come with official recognition.

Official or unofficial, they don't exist.

and no civil infrastructure (to name just a few),

They do have civil infrastructure, including a civil service.

Not one that you or I would recognize as civil infrastructure.

it's not like it's a real nation either. It's a group of people who have the dream of a nation, but no power with which to implement that dream.

No, it's a lot more than that. These are people who have been running the area for decades. Noone else has been doing it for them. Rubbish gets collected, schools and hospitals get built, they have policemen, judges in circuit, teachers, doctors, civil engineers, and so on.

Actually, someone else was doing it for them for decades. Israel was. yes, they have rudimentary patchwork systems in place in the West Bank, but Gaza is a massive, ugly mess. I've been there - it's a nightmare, like the worst parts of Bombay built on arid sand. Nobody is actually in charge - things get done by knowing the cousin of the guy who can hook you up with electricity illegally.

You seem to have a rather rosy picture of the Palestinian areas. It certainly has the potential to become a state, but to call it a state now is like calling a high school biology student a doctor. It's a long, long ways off. Recognition of a Palestinian state would be only the first baby step on a long, hard road ahead.

BTW, you should probably be more careful about how you spell Israel if you're going to try to discuss this subject. It doesn't help your case to look like someone who heard something about the area in class one day last week.

 

[bilby]

Frank Zappa summed up the real issue here:

You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer.

I could see Palestine getting a couple of seventh or eighth hand Ilyushins or Tupolevs to form a national airline, although I am not sure how many people would have both the money and the necessary desperation to fly with them; but as an Islamic nation state, persuading the authorities to license a brewery may be a big ask.