European nations recognizing Palestine?

[laughing dog]

And how can you tell from the picture that this was the site of "an enemy weapons system"?

Most bombs were dropped on Hamas weapons.

That answers "How can you guess from that picture that this was the site of "an enemy weapons system"?". But it does not answer the actual question.

 

[dystopian]

I stand corrected. Loren gets a point for being right-while-off-topic.

It's still wall-to-wall people, and due to the poor quality of housing & streets (what's a "sidewalk"?) it seems insanely crowded.

Pretty far from wall to wall people. Gaza's density of around 5000/km2 doesn't quite match up to Manilla's 43000/km2; to say nothing of individual city districts which can surpass the 150000/km2 mark. Gaza is very densely populated if we consider it equivalent to a country; but its small geographic size makes it more appropriate to understand it as a city... in which case it isn't particularly standout. Density wise it's about on par with Amsterdam which is actually quite a low density city and which certainly doesn't strike me as insanely crowded. Compare Amsterdam or the Gaza strip's density to London's nearly 14000/km2 or Paris' 22000km/2, for instance; neither of which are insanely crowded cities either. It seems to me that anyone who lives in a proper city would have great difficulty describing the Gaza strip as 'insanely' crowded; the poor quality of housing and streets doesn't make a place seem more or less crowded.

The problem; in the context of this discussion; isn't so much the density of people, but rather the *lack* thereof. There's too much sprawl; if one were to start over from scratch one could easily fit the current population in an urban area a third the size of what's currently built; and that would still be perfectly liveable (assuming developed modern infrastructure that doesn't keep getting destroyed, of course). That would leave a lot more areas and farms from which to fire rockets out in the open while Israeli drones mow you down as you try to make a futile escape.

 

[Davka]

Most bombs were dropped on Hamas weapons.

That answers "How can you guess from that picture that this was the site of "an enemy weapons system"?". But it does not answer the actual question.

It's also bullshit. Most bombs were dropped on places that were used as launch sites for Hamas rockets, including mobile-launched rockets and even shoulder-launched rockets. Israeli fighters had no way of knowing if they were taking out a Hamas stronghold, or simply a neighborhood that was used to launch a single rocket. Part of Hamas' strategy is to get Israel to destroy the greatest amount of housing and infrastructure possible, and Israel is always glad to oblige them by indiscriminately leveling any building or area that a rocket was fired from.

 

[Davka]

I stand corrected. Loren gets a point for being right-while-off-topic.

It's still wall-to-wall people, and due to the poor quality of housing & streets (what's a "sidewalk"?) it seems insanely crowded.

It seems to me that anyone who lives in a proper city would have great difficulty describing the Gaza strip as 'insanely' crowded; the poor quality of housing and streets doesn't make a place seem more or less crowded.

Actually, it does. Take any proper city and replace all tall buildings with 4-5 story buildings. Remove all the sidewalks and have people and cars sharing the streets. Suddenly things get a lot more cramped.

 

[dystopian]

It seems to me that anyone who lives in a proper city would have great difficulty describing the Gaza strip as 'insanely' crowded; the poor quality of housing and streets doesn't make a place seem more or less crowded.

Actually, it does. Take any proper city and replace all tall buildings with 4-5 story buildings. Remove all the sidewalks and have people and cars sharing the streets. Suddenly things get a lot more cramped.

Hmm, no. You forget, I live in *Amsterdam*; which at least within the ringway is pretty much like you've described. We've got very few tall buildings here. And sure, we've got sidewalks... in some places. But there's plenty of areas where people and cars share the street. Not to mention bicycles. Fucking bicycles everywhere. Oh, and trams too. All on the same pavement. All mingling with what seems like chaos. Yet, things are *not* cramped. No matter how crappy the infrastructure in a place is, 5000/km2 just isn't going to feel particularly cramped to a true urbanite. With just 5000/km2 you're not going to get something "crazy" like say Shibuya Crossing; and Shibuya Crossing isn't anywhere near as bad/crowded as it looks at first glance (it just looks that way because its a scramble crossing).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) The areas near Gaza are basically evacuated during the spats. It's pretty hard to kill people that have already fled.

This is total bullshit. The reason the Israelis use 'knock-knock' bombs is because the buildings they are about to level are NOT vacated. Besides, it's literally impossible to vacate Gaza - there is nowhere to go.

Reading comprehension fail. I was explaining why Hamas rockets kill few Israelis.

4) You're falling for the propaganda. Of those 2,200 "civilians" half were combatants--and that's counting as civilians people sitting on weapons and people harboring terrorist commanders in their homes. And it's counting those killed by short-falling Hamas weapons as killed by Israel.

OK, loren, source this bullshit - every single point - or admit that you're making shit up. Again.

There's no original source that gives your numbers. The closest you can come to it is the Gazan Health Ministry--but it's simply listing how many dead, it doesn't say whether they were combatant or not. As for sources, a bunch of the numbers are collected up on Wikipedia.

Note that the Hamas missiles are a lot more deadly when they fall short--it's not that they don't pose a threat, it's that Israel has done a huge amount to reduce the threat.

Bullets fired at the torso of a man wearing a kevlar vest pose little threat. The same goes for low-tech rockets thrown at Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system.

And you can die even when the vest stops the bullet. We don't expect the cop to not shoot because he's wearing a vest, we shouldn't expect Israel to not shoot because of Iron Dome. Not to mention that if Israel doesn't shoot Hamas will simply saturate Iron Dome and get the rockets through anyway.

1) I suggest you look at Google Maps, the satellite view. You'll find lots of places without people in Gaza.

I suggest you visit Gaza. Google maps are misleading.

Note that I said "satellite view". You can see what's people, what's open space.

2) Gaza is by no means the most densely-packed real estate. Among nations and quasi-nations it's #6. It's well below the density of many major cities.

That used to be the case, before the population of gaza approached 2 million.

Ok, they've been fucking themselves out of house and home. More recent data shows them at #5 rather than #6.

Israel has many options besides killing thousands of civilians for every Israeli civilian killed. They could treat the attacks as what they are: a mild annoyance, akin to a child kicking a professional wrestler, something to be grudgingly tolerated and ignored.

Death isn't a mild annoyance. Or aren't Jews people that matter?

Israeli civilians are rarely harmed by rockets from Gaza.

Rarely is not zero. You apparently don't care about Jews.

There are always solutions short of carpet-bombing, unless you are simply a callous asshole with no regard for the lives of "those people."

"There are always solutions short of <x>" only proves the person saying doesn't know what they are talking about.

Utter crap-ola. "I can't refute your point so I'll claim you don't know what you're talking about." Again, the guy with zero actual experience of the region is telling the citizen what life is like there.

I was referring to the argument in general.

- - - Updated - - -

Loren:

Which is worse - terrorists lobbing bombs while hiding behind innocent civilians, or the people who go ahead and bomb them anyways?

They chose the path of war, they continue to favor the path of war. Too bad.

 

[Arctish]

They chose the path of war, they continue to favor the path of war. Too bad.

You are describing Israelis. They chose to be led by terrorists and warmongers. They chose to steal land and water from their neighbors, to engage in ethnic cleansing and to torture. They chose to violate the human rights of a captive population. They chose to make military service compulsory so that every generation of Israelis participates in the crimes and the bloodshed.

And yet, when one of them dies, you never dismiss it with a callous "too bad". Why is that?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That answers "How can you guess from that picture that this was the site of "an enemy weapons system"?". But it does not answer the actual question.

It's also bullshit. Most bombs were dropped on places that were used as launch sites for Hamas rockets, including mobile-launched rockets and even shoulder-launched rockets. Israeli fighters had no way of knowing if they were taking out a Hamas stronghold, or simply a neighborhood that was used to launch a single rocket. Part of Hamas' strategy is to get Israel to destroy the greatest amount of housing and infrastructure possible, and Israel is always glad to oblige them by indiscriminately leveling any building or area that a rocket was fired from.

You were just asking for sources--and note that I was proved right before I even got back on to reply--and now it's your turn.

Shoulder fired rockets??? There's no such thing as a crude shoulder-fired rocket (at least unless it's going to be used by a suicide attacker.) so Hamas has almost none of them.

And Israel isn't interested in taking out a place used to launch a rocket, they're interested in taking out the crew that launched that rocket.


I do agree that Hamas wants the maximum destruction of Gaza--but you're shooting yourself in the foot here. If the government of Gaza wants the destruction why do you blame Israel for it???

 

[Davka]

Which is worse - terrorists lobbing bombs while hiding behind innocent civilians, or the people who go ahead and bomb them anyways?

They chose the path of war, they continue to favor the path of war. Too bad.

So it's totally OK to slaughter school children because some assholes chose to use them to hide behind.

Nice moral compass you've got there. Seems to allow Israel to do anything and everything that was ever done to them, thus becoming indistinguishable from their tormentors.

 

[laughing dog]

And Israel isn't interested in taking out a place used to launch a rocket, they're interested in taking out the crew that launched that rocket.

So according to you, the IDF warns the residents of the target site to leave in the hopes of taking out the crew. Do you realize how ridiculously stupid that is?

I do agree that Hamas wants the maximum destruction of Gaza--but you're shooting yourself in the foot here. If the government of Gaza wants the destruction why do you blame Israel for it???

Because Israel does not have to acquiesce. And because Israel is helping Hamas which is not their goal. Really, do you even think before you respond?

 

[Davka]

It's also bullshit. Most bombs were dropped on places that were used as launch sites for Hamas rockets, including mobile-launched rockets and even shoulder-launched rockets. Israeli fighters had no way of knowing if they were taking out a Hamas stronghold, or simply a neighborhood that was used to launch a single rocket. Part of Hamas' strategy is to get Israel to destroy the greatest amount of housing and infrastructure possible, and Israel is always glad to oblige them by indiscriminately leveling any building or area that a rocket was fired from.

You were just asking for sources--and note that I was proved right before I even got back on to reply--and now it's your turn.

Shoulder fired rockets??? There's no such thing as a crude shoulder-fired rocket (at least unless it's going to be used by a suicide attacker.) so Hamas has almost none of them.

And Israel isn't interested in taking out a place used to launch a rocket, they're interested in taking out the crew that launched that rocket.


I do agree that Hamas wants the maximum destruction of Gaza--but you're shooting yourself in the foot here. If the government of Gaza wants the destruction why do you blame Israel for it???

Gaza has no government. They have a crude group of warlords and thugs, that's all.

As for sources:

The attempted takedown of the Arkia jetliner in Kenya prompted El Al Israel Airlines to develop a defense system that could help its jets deflect or avoid shoulder-fired missiles, also known as Man Portable Air Defense Systems, or MANPADs. The system, known as SkyShield, fires a laser at incoming missiles, disrupting their flight path.

In fact, a photograph from a September 2013 rally in Gaza shows a Hamas member hoisting a MANPAD over his shoulder. A July 23 Associated Press piece details the various theatres where MANPADs are already in the hands of Islamist rebel groups—Syria, Chad, Mali, and Sinai. In 2012, Al-Monitor reported that a shoulder-fired missile was launched at an Israeli military aircraft over the Gaza strip.

Source: Jewish Journal.com

They are crude in comparison to Israel's sophisticated guided missiles. And also:

Israel has known for six years that Hamas is holding anti-aircraft missiles in the Gaza Strip. Last week, the reports were proven true, when a “Strela” shoulder-fired missile was launched at an [Israeli] aircraft during an Air Force operation in the southern Gaza Strip.

Source

Israel isn't actually interested in taking out the people who fired the missiles, they are interested in dealing out mass punishment to the residents of Gaza for "allowing" such missiles to be fired from there.

Here's what the two sides are throwing at each-other:

HAMAS:
Antiaircraft Missiles and Rockets
Sagger missiles that are more accurate and sophisticated than standard or upgraded RPGs
Kalashnikov Rifles
Paving stones, rocks, and cement blocks
Molotov cocktails

ISRAEL:
Small arms

Dror light machine gun
IMI Negev light machine gun
Uzi submachine gun
Uzi pistol
Desert Eagle pistol
Jericho 941 pistol
BUL M-5 pistol
BUL Storm pistol
SP-21 Barak pistol
IMI Galil assault rifle
IMI Tavor assault rifle
M89SR sniper rifle
Hezi SM-1 semi-automatic PDW

Anti-tank rockets and missiles
MATADOR Shoulder-launched missile weapon
B-300 Shoulder-launched missile weapon
Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon
Shipon Shoulder-launched missile weapon
FGM-172 SRAW
MAPATS ATGM
Spike ATGM
LAHAT ATGM
Nimrod ATGM

Other missiles
Guided Advanced Tactical Rocket - Laser
Shafrir air-to-air missile
Derby air-to-air missile
Python air-to-air missile
Gabriel naval anti-ship missile
ADM-141 TALD
Popeye AGM-142 air-to-surface missile
Delilah cruise missile / anti-radiation missile
LORA theater ballistic missile
Jericho medium-range ballistic missile

Aircraft
IAI Arava cargo aircraft
IAI Sea Scan surveillance aircraft
IAI Nesher fighter aircraft
IAI Kfir fighter aircraft
IAI Namer fighter aircraft
IAI Lavi fighter aircraft
ATG Javelin jet trainer aircraft

Watercraft
Shaldag class fast patrol boat
Dabur class patrol boat
Dvora class fast patrol boat
Super Dvora Mk II class fast patrol boat
Super Dvora Mk III class fast patrol boat
Sa'ar 3-class missile boat
Sa'ar 4-class missile boat
Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat
Sa'ar 5-class corvette
Gal class submarine
Dolphin class submarine

Spaceflight
Shavit spaceflight launch vehicle
EROS earth observation satellite
Ofeq reconnaissance satellite
TecSAR reconnaissance satellite

Weapon stations
CornerShot SWAT weapon
Rafael Overhead Weapon Station
Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station
Typhoon Weapon System

Active protection systems
Trophy active protection system
Iron Fist active protection system
Flight Guard airborne IR countermeasures system

Radars
EL/M-2032 fire-control radar
EL/M-2052 AESA radar
EL/M-2075 Phalcon AEW&C radar
EL/M-2080 Green Pine target tracking radar
EL/M-2083 AEW&C radar

Optronics
ITL MARS reflex sight
LITENING targeting pod
Spice EO-GPS PGM guidance kit
Skystar 300 ISR system

Tanks
Isherman tank
Sho't tank
Magach tank
Sabra tank
Merkava tank

Fighting vehicles
M113 variants
Nimda Shoet APC
Trail Blazer ARV
IDF Nagmachon APC
IDF Nakpadon CEV
IDF Puma CEV
IDF Achzarit APC
IDF Namer IFV
Nemmera ARV
AIL Abir
AIL Storm
Plasan Sand Cat
Wolf Armoured Vehicle
Golan Armored Vehicle

Artillery
Davidka mortar
Soltam M-66 mortar
Soltam M-68 howitzer
Soltam M-71 howitzer
Soltam M-120 mortar
L-33/39 Ro'em self-propelled howitzer
Makmat self-propelled mortar
MAR-240/290 rocket artillery launcher
LAR-160 rocket artillery launcher
LAROM rocket artillery launcher
Cardom mortar
Rascal self-propelled howitzer
ATMOS 2000 self-propelled howitzer
Sholef self-propelled howitzer

Unmanned aerial vehicles
Tadiran Mastiff UAV
Casper 250 UAV
Silver Arrow Micro-V UAV
Silver Arrow Sniper UAV
IAI Scout UAV
IAI Searcher UAV
IAI Harpy UAV
IAI Harop UAV
IAI Bird-Eye UAV
IAI I-View UAV
IAI Ranger UAV
IAI Heron UAV
IAI Eitan UAV
IAI Panther UAV
IAI RQ-2 Pioneer UAV
IAI RQ-5 Hunter UAV
Elbit Skylark UAV
Elbit Hermes 90 UAV
Elbit Hermes 450 UAV
Elbit Hermes 900 UAV
Aeronautics Dominator UAV
Aeronautics Orbiter UAV
Urban Aeronautics X-Hawk UAV

Unmanned surface vehicles
VIPeR UGCV
Protector USV
Guardium UGV
Raam HaShachar unmanned Caterpillar D9 armored bulldozer

Air-defense systems
Machbet self-propelled anti-aircraft weapon
Barak 1 naval surface-to-air missile
Barak 8 naval surface-to-air missile
SPYDER air-defense system
Arrow anti-ballistic missile
Tactical High Energy Laser
Iron Dome short-range rocket defense system
David's Sling medium-range rocket defense system

Miscellaneous
Mitznefet helmet camouflage
Tomcar all-terrain vehicle
MG251/253 smoothbore tank gun
Kilshon anti-radiation missile launcher
IDF Caterpillar D9 armored bulldozer
Skunk riot control agent
Scream riot control agent
SIMON breach grenade
Enhanced Tactical Computer​

Granted, some of those Israeli weapons (like the Davidka) are outdated. Israel can afford to phase out older weapons.

So yeah, it's totally acceptable for Israel to slaughter as many Palestinians as they want, because after all, this is "war." Like when a child kicks an adult and the adult responds by beating the child to a pulp, that's a "fight."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They chose the path of war, they continue to favor the path of war. Too bad.

So it's totally OK to slaughter school children because some assholes chose to use them to hide behind.

Nice moral compass you've got there. Seems to allow Israel to do anything and everything that was ever done to them, thus becoming indistinguishable from their tormentors.

When it comes to war there are no good answers--thus pointing out an answer isn't good isn't meaningful.

The Gazan people support the war. If they don't agree with the dead kids then let them change things.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So according to you, the IDF warns the residents of the target site to leave in the hopes of taking out the crew. Do you realize how ridiculously stupid that is?

I never said any such thing. You're piecing together unrelated bits to produce a totally wrong conclusion.

The roof knocking is done when they're going after weapons storage, not when they're going after rocketeers.

I do agree that Hamas wants the maximum destruction of Gaza--but you're shooting yourself in the foot here. If the government of Gaza wants the destruction why do you blame Israel for it???

Because Israel does not have to acquiesce. And because Israel is helping Hamas which is not their goal. Really, do you even think before you respond?

If Israel does not acquiesce then they end up hurt worse. If they ignore Hamas provocations Hamas will just keep upping the game until they do react. Thus the sensible thing is to shoot as soon as it becomes apparent that Hamas wants them to shoot.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Gaza has no government. They have a crude group of warlords and thugs, that's all.

It waddles and quacks--and you seem to be for recognizing it as a government.

As for sources:

The attempted takedown of the Arkia jetliner in Kenya prompted El Al Israel Airlines to develop a defense system that could help its jets deflect or avoid shoulder-fired missiles, also known as Man Portable Air Defense Systems, or MANPADs. The system, known as SkyShield, fires a laser at incoming missiles, disrupting their flight path.

In fact, a photograph from a September 2013 rally in Gaza shows a Hamas member hoisting a MANPAD over his shoulder. A July 23 Associated Press piece details the various theatres where MANPADs are already in the hands of Islamist rebel groups—Syria, Chad, Mali, and Sinai. In 2012, Al-Monitor reported that a shoulder-fired missile was launched at an Israeli military aircraft over the Gaza strip.

Source: Jewish Journal.com

They are crude in comparison to Israel's sophisticated guided missiles. And also:

Israel has known for six years that Hamas is holding anti-aircraft missiles in the Gaza Strip. Last week, the reports were proven true, when a “Strela” shoulder-fired missile was launched at an [Israeli] aircraft during an Air Force operation in the southern Gaza Strip.

Source

They have a few. Note *ONE* missile fired--and not at Israel. You're not supporting your position.

Israel isn't actually interested in taking out the people who fired the missiles, they are interested in dealing out mass punishment to the residents of Gaza for "allowing" such missiles to be fired from there.

If they were interested in mass punishment they could do *FAR* more damage than they actually do. The typical result of an Israeli bomb is *ZERO* dead. To drop bombs in a city without killing takes a lot of care.

 

[Arctish]

If they were interested in mass punishment they could do *FAR* more damage than they actually do.

Yes, it's true Israel could turn all of Gaza into a radioactive, smoking ruin, or could cut off the supply of food and water completely, or could kill millions of Palestinians with anthrax and ebola. However, the fact Israel hasn't done it doesn't mean Israelis don't inflict mass punishments on Palestinians. They do, and they do it openly.

The typical result of an Israeli bomb is *ZERO* dead. To drop bombs in a city without killing takes a lot of care.

This is probably the most ridiculous thing you've said all year. Israel drops bombs but is careful to make sure no one dies? Are you serious???

 

[Davka]

So it's totally OK to slaughter school children because some assholes chose to use them to hide behind.

Nice moral compass you've got there. Seems to allow Israel to do anything and everything that was ever done to them, thus becoming indistinguishable from their tormentors.

When it comes to war there are no good answers--thus pointing out an answer isn't good isn't meaningful.

The Gazan people support the war. If they don't agree with the dead kids then let them change things.

That's the spirit behind the Geneva Convention, by golly!

 

[laughing dog]

I never said any such thing. You're piecing together unrelated bits to produce a totally wrong conclusion.

The roof knocking is done when they're going after weapons storage, not when they're going after rocketeers.

Prove it.

If Israel does not acquiesce then they end up hurt worse. If they ignore Hamas provocations Hamas will just keep upping the game until they do react. Thus the sensible thing is to shoot as soon as it becomes apparent that Hamas wants them to shoot.

Israel is responsible for its own actions. What Hamas wishes to have the IDF destroy civilian infrastructure and injure and kill civilians which is evil. The IDF chooses to acquiesce. The fact that you are incapable of seeing pathways to peace that do not involve perpetual killing and destruction reflects on your morally repugnant mindset not reality.

- - - Updated - - -

It waddles and quacks--and you seem to be for recognizing it as a government.

Using that logic, Israel is a terrorist state.

 

[untermensche]

Using that logic, Israel is a terrorist state.

I think using any logic a state that carries out daily acts of violence that isn't justified is a terrorist nation.

A blockade is an act of violence. You can see that when people try to break through it.

And it is allegedly justified because Israel is frightened by what the people it oppresses in Gaza might do if free trade existed.

Since Israel has the means to end the oppression by simply ending it and therefore lessen the chance of violence it has no justification for the daily violence of a blockade.

You can't justify violence by saying you are frightened of what people you oppress will do if they have normal freedom of trade.

The problem has been made clear in this thread. Israel does not tell anybody what it's borders are. They are forever a nebulous changeable thing. Today they appear here. Tomorrow they appear to be here.

And they get away with this nonsense and all the necessary violence to impose it because the US blocks opposition at the UN.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, it's true Israel could turn all of Gaza into a radioactive, smoking ruin, or could cut off the supply of food and water completely, or could kill millions of Palestinians with anthrax and ebola. However, the fact Israel hasn't done it doesn't mean Israelis don't inflict mass punishments on Palestinians. They do, and they do it openly.

The typical result of an Israeli bomb is *ZERO* dead. To drop bombs in a city without killing takes a lot of care.

This is probably the most ridiculous thing you've said all year. Israel drops bombs but is careful to make sure no one dies? Are you serious???

Count the number of dead. Count the number of bombs they dropped. If they're blowing up weapons (including tunnels--they're basically a weapon) there's no need to kill and thus they call ahead to shoo people away. Sometimes Hamas makes the people stay and die anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Prove it.

You're getting unreasonable here.

Rocketeers do not shoot from inside buildings, how can you use a roof-knocker when there's no roof to knock on??