Breakdown In Civil Order

[Oleg]

Because the people were convinced that crime was at a historic level high, that it was a local anomaly caused by his policies.

But it isn't, and it wasn't.

It was a damn lie.

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.

Yes. Foolish people believing their lying eyes.

Why did you bother to respond to my post without reading it?

Wut? It’s not just that crime, like homicide, burglary, and car thefts were up; it’s that the DA very publicly decided not to prosecute. Saying that the public was bamboozled by all those right-wingers in SF media is, wait, what?

Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.

Burglaries, Arsons, and Car Thefts Are All Up Significantly in SF Over Last Year

Crime was expected to go down with shelter-in-place orders back at the beginning of the pandemic, and for a short time, it did. But in San Francisco, the nature of the crimes being committed most often may have shifted, but there's still plenty of bad stuff going on all over town.

sfist.com

Yes, thanks for demonstrating that crime (some) went up in San Francisco. We already knew that. That wasn't in dispute.

Rural murder rates are up 25% across the US. Gonna blame that on the San Fran DA? Where are the stats demonstrating the San Fran crime rate is up notably more than it has risen during the same period across the US?

All politics are local, Jimmy. Telling a SF resident not to worry about the decay and lawlessness in their neighborhood because some county in Kentucky has a statistically worse crime rate is just, er, silly. Is that whataboutism?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, thanks for demonstrating that crime (some) went up in San Francisco. We already knew that. That wasn't in dispute.

Rural murder rates are up 25% across the US. Gonna blame that on the San Fran DA? Where are the stats demonstrating the San Fran crime rate is up notably more than it has risen during the same period across the US?

All politics are local, Jimmy. Telling a SF resident not to worry about the decay and lawlessness in their neighborhood because some county in Kentucky has a statistically worse crime rate is just, er, silly. Is that whataboutism?

So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes, thanks for demonstrating that crime (some) went up in San Francisco. We already knew that. That wasn't in dispute.

Rural murder rates are up 25% across the US. Gonna blame that on the San Fran DA? Where are the stats demonstrating the San Fran crime rate is up notably more than it has risen during the same period across the US?

All politics are local, Jimmy. Telling a SF resident not to worry about the decay and lawlessness in their neighborhood because some county in Kentucky has a statistically worse crime rate is just, er, silly. Is that whataboutism?

So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.

I've got some guesses why they bothered. Mostly, it strikes me as similar to the reasons Trausti bothered.

 

[Oleg]

Yes, thanks for demonstrating that crime (some) went up in San Francisco. We already knew that. That wasn't in dispute.

Rural murder rates are up 25% across the US. Gonna blame that on the San Fran DA? Where are the stats demonstrating the San Fran crime rate is up notably more than it has risen during the same period across the US?

All politics are local, Jimmy. Telling a SF resident not to worry about the decay and lawlessness in their neighborhood because some county in Kentucky has a statistically worse crime rate is just, er, silly. Is that whataboutism?

So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.

How is choosing not to prosecute crime not the DA’s fault? That was the stated reason for the recall.

 

[Jarhyn]

Choosing not to prosecute some crimes does not mean failing to prosecute others. Some folks act as if there can't, you know, be priorities at the DA's office which actually target real threats...

 

[TSwizzle]

In a surprise move, the insufferable prick governor of California Gavin Newsom has vetoed the setting up of safe spaces for junkies to shoot up their drug of choice;

Citing the potential for “unintended consequences,” California Governor Gavin Newsom on Monday vetoed a bill that would have legalized drug injection and consumption sites in an effort to reduce overdoses. “I have long supported the cutting edge of harm reduction strategies,” Newsom said in a statement announcing the veto. “However, I am acutely concerned about the operations of safe injection sites without strong, engaged local leadership and well-documented, vetted, and thoughtful operational and sustainability plans.”

KTLA

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

link

"The individual then entered the track area, retrieved a rock, and pulled himself back onto the platform," the police department said. "The individual proceeded to use the rock to strike the victim’s head multiple times, causing the victim to lose consciousness."

A spate of high-profile subway crimes in New York City this year shocked residents, including the killing of Michelle Go, the beating with a hammer of another woman who was kicked downstairs and the stabbing of at least six people over one weekend.

In April, 10 people were shot and 13 more were injured when a man opened fire on an N train.

Just how far does the impact of Gov. Newsom and some DA in San Francisco reach?! Something must be done!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.

How is choosing not to prosecute crime not the DA’s fault? That was the stated reason for the recall.

Your merry-go-round argument is getting old. Crime in San Francisco has not been shown to have risen in stark contrast to national averages.

 

[lpetrich]

Even though the cities' survival is easy to verify.

Oliver Willis on Twitter: "most liberals do not understand the extent to which fox news viewers seriously believe multiple us cities were burned to the ground in summer 2020. literally burned to the ground." / Twitter
noting
Ben Albert on Twitter: "@owillis I still frequently run into “entire cities burned to the ground”" / Twitter

Oliver Willis on Twitter: ""they dont really believe that though"
they do. they absolutely 100% do. i dont know how else to say this. they believe it completely." / Twitter

Jeremy Facklam on Twitter: "@BAlbertBen @owillis I hear this ALL THE TIME from conservative friends/family in Wisconsin about Minneapolis/St. Paul even though when I tell them it’s not true and I live there the response is just “ehhh I don’t believe you”" / Twitter

Stephanie Thompson on Twitter: "@jfacklam @BAlbertBen @owillis I live on the border and when I tell certain people there are not dozens of illegal immigrants tearing through my back yard every day they literally don't believe me" / Twitter

Christie McKaig on Twitter: "@owillis I have a sister who absolutely believes this. I can’t make her believe otherwise." / Twitter

Dave’s Inner Rage on Twitter: "@owillis My sister-in-law was shocked to learn how small the area of protests in Portland were when I showed her on a map of the city. She honestly believed the entire downtown area had been completely destroyed." / Twitter

mrs meowkins on Twitter: "@Autolykos_84 @owillis I live 40 minutes from Portland and a woman I know fully believes the city is burned down and what is left is too dangerous to visit" / Twitter

 

[lostone]

So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.

How is choosing not to prosecute crime not the DA’s fault? That was the stated reason for the recall.

Your merry-go-round argument is getting old. Crime in San Francisco has not been shown to have risen in stark contrast to national averages.

I live near Baltimore. It has one of the highest crime rates in the US. We do not live in terror of going into Baltimore. I live in the suburbs of DC and visit Baltimore frequently. Many of my neighbors take so many precautions against their homes being broken into and robbed that it borders on paranoia. The threat is much exaggerated, at least locally. To be sure, there are areas I would avoid, but the extent of the problem is much exaggerated.

 

[TSwizzle]

Society really has broken down;

This is the astounding moment a woman shamelessly filed her feet on board a train in London as passengers look on in disbelief. Startling footage shows the unknown passenger, who has brought her own foot file on the Southwestern Railway service train journey through London, noisily grating away at the dry skin on her heel. A male train conductor on the Southwestern Railway service can be seen asking the woman to put her shoe back on and stop shaving her feet onboard the train.

Daily Mail

Bad enough the idiots that get on planes wearing flip flops but this is just too much.

 

[bilby]

Bad enough the idiots that get on planes wearing flip flops

Given the stupid insistence on security theatre that requires passengers to remove their footwear at security checkpoints before boarding, this seems like a fairly smart idea to me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

During the past decade we have witnessed dramatic changes in the nature of the terrorist threat. In the 1990s, right-wing extremism overtook left-wing terrorism as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat to the country.

Both are dwarfed by the Islamic terrorism of course.

That said, when he wrote this in 2002 he was probably right. You had right wing extremists like McVeigh, and less active left wing extremist scene compared with 1960s-80s.

But now things are different. Widespread rioting and unrests (called "uprisings" by those engaging in it) since 2014, by Antifa and #BLM which has Marxist roots and is glorifying 70s terrorists like Joanne Chesimard. You have resurgence of hate groups like Nation of Islam, New Black Panther Party, NFAC (who hid a cop killer in their compound in my neck of the woods recently), Black Hammer Party etc.
Feds investigating Black Hammer Party in wide-ranging criminal probe

It is not politically correct to point to those groups, as the left wing terrorist groups are often "minority led", but they are a real threat.

No. Unrest isn't terrorism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think that we should save jails for violent offenders.

Here is a very simple way to make plenty of room for such people. Stop the drug warring and release everybody imprisoned for minor drug offenses. We can also make more room for such people by treating minor crimes like traffic violations.

So nothing happens to the burglar or shoplifter, they're free to offend as much as they want.

At some point you have to use jail because you have nothing else to deter them with.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.

Devastating acts of violence. Devastating? Hyperbole much?

How often are violent criminals actually released early and commit serious crimes? Probably not too often. Yes, it likely happens, but to the point that we are going to suggest it is endemic in our society? No, it isn't. The truth is, outside of Seattle, crime has recently risen and dropped... depending on the crimes one looks at, including California. Some violent crimes are up, some aren't. We see this broadly across the country (red and blue). But some want to just point at certain crimes and yell the sky is falling because of the Dems (...and Gov. Newsom) all the while rural murder rate is up 25%.

We do have a catch-and-release problem. The problem is that we went a bit too far in bail reform. I agree with the basic concept--we had a problem where being stuck in jail without being able to afford bail ended up being the de-facto punishment in many cases and note that since that's before the trial there was no determination of guilt.

Unfortunately, going to a zero-bail system means that repeat offenders stay out of jail until trial--and the longer the period between offense and punishment the less deterrence there is.

What I would like to see is a middle ground: zero-bail until you violate it or reoffend. If you're out on zero-bail and are arrested for something else go back to the old system. If you fail to show up when you're supposed to there is a rebuttable presumption that you can't be trusted and you don't get zero-bail in the future. (Not a certainty--things happen. People fail to get notifications of date changes, transportation breakdowns happen etc. Not everybody has money for a taxi when the car doesn't go, you don't even have that option if there was an accident... Last night I was watching a presentation by a local mountaineering group--they got tied up by the police for hours because they found a freshly-dead body in the wilderness. Most of the time when us backcountry guys find a body there's no questions because the body has obviously been there for a while, but in this case it was less than one hour--less time than it took search and rescue to get there.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.

The problem was his anti-prosecution position. I certainly don't agree with right-wing ideas of "justice" but he went too far in the other direction.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.

Those tweets do count. They're all showing people that should have been behind bars, unable to commit the repeated offenses they were committing.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.

The problem was his anti-prosecution position. I certainly don't agree with right-wing ideas of "justice" but he went too far in the other direction.

In the other direction with respect to whom? Are they prosecuting less crimes overall or participating in less prosecution activity? Did they start just sandbagging and doing nothing but twiddling their assholes all day long on the taxpayer dime? If not, which crimes did they shift to prosecuting, instead?

Would you rather they not prosecute those other crimes?

A prosecutor's office has a zero-sum game on prosecution due to limited material resources.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Bad enough the idiots that get on planes wearing flip flops

Given the stupid insistence on security theatre that requires passengers to remove their footwear at security checkpoints before boarding, this seems like a fairly smart idea to me.

Flip-flops would not be acceptable. I've been refused wearing the slip-on covers that tradesmen often use to protect floors. At this point I have some very low rise "socks" with extra traction. They look enough like the socks I'm putting them on over that they don't get questioned.

 

[Politesse]

I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.

Devastating acts of violence. Devastating? Hyperbole much?

How often are violent criminals actually released early and commit serious crimes? Probably not too often. Yes, it likely happens, but to the point that we are going to suggest it is endemic in our society? No, it isn't. The truth is, outside of Seattle, crime has recently risen and dropped... depending on the crimes one looks at, including California. Some violent crimes are up, some aren't. We see this broadly across the country (red and blue). But some want to just point at certain crimes and yell the sky is falling because of the Dems (...and Gov. Newsom) all the while rural murder rate is up 25%.

We do have a catch-and-release problem. The problem is that we went a bit too far in bail reform. I agree with the basic concept--we had a problem where being stuck in jail without being able to afford bail ended up being the de-facto punishment in many cases and note that since that's before the trial there was no determination of guilt.

Unfortunately, going to a zero-bail system means that repeat offenders stay out of jail until trial--and the longer the period between offense and punishment the less deterrence there is.

What I would like to see is a middle ground: zero-bail until you violate it or reoffend. If you're out on zero-bail and are arrested for something else go back to the old system. If you fail to show up when you're supposed to there is a rebuttable presumption that you can't be trusted and you don't get zero-bail in the future. (Not a certainty--things happen. People fail to get notifications of date changes, transportation breakdowns happen etc. Not everybody has money for a taxi when the car doesn't go, you don't even have that option if there was an accident... Last night I was watching a presentation by a local mountaineering group--they got tied up by the police for hours because they found a freshly-dead body in the wilderness. Most of the time when us backcountry guys find a body there's no questions because the body has obviously been there for a while, but in this case it was less than one hour--less time than it took search and rescue to get there.)

A reasoned poistion, and if our system were otherwise just and fair, I think it would be the best course of action.